Testosterone Optimization On RP-inspired Nutrition

gaze

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Also, a 9.9 calcium level is not normal. it’s kind of high, so Probably some leeching is going on. Include more calcium/magnesium/vitamin d to lower it
 

Cirion

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consisting of different people every few weeks. sex usually 2-3x/week. I'm in college so it's quite easy to swoop up a new female every night I go out to the bar. Aggressive sex (obvi consensual) is important to put you in a high-T mindset also imo.

That's kinda what I figured. To be honest that kind of lifestyle isn't too interesting to me (I am not judging you at all tho). I think the only way to get sustainable T boost in a LTR (which in the long run I'm more interested in) is Karezza. Karezza is the only way to avoid the dreaded Coolidge Effect. @ecstatichamster regularly practices karezza and I think he's at 900 ng/dL and like 60 y/o. Pretty impressive for that age.
 

Cirion

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what is Karezza?

In essence its sex without climax, or at least not making climax the goal (so it doesn't happen as frequently). The more hardcore karezzers would make it a point to never climax ever. It does definitely take more discipline than just getting it on with random people and not worrying about climax, but it's a solid option for someone who wants a relationship but doesn't wanna suffer the Coolidge Effect. What's more, practicing karezza has been shown to promote healthier relationships. The Coolidge effect is often a big reason people ultimately become disillusioned with their partner and cheat. It's not the only reason of course, but I believe it's a major factor.
 

gaze

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consisting of different people every few weeks. sex usually 2-3x/week. I'm in college so it's quite easy to swoop up a new female every night I go out to the bar. Aggressive sex (obvi consensual) is important to put you in a high-T mindset also imo

I remember the first time I was trying to have sex in high school i couldn’t get it up and was super anxious and one of my friends told me you have to go into sex in a super aggressive mindset, kind of like the hulk :D. It definitely works, if you go into it overthinking or shy, your screwed. but if you have the confidence and a huge aggressive drive, it happens effortlessly and you feel your hormones rising/working. (also like you said, aggressive doesn’t mean non consensual, it means you have to go into it every time like your about to lift weights.
 
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GreekDemiGod

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Today's macros. You guys think my fat intake is too high for RP guidelines ? It was mostly saturated fat, lots of raw cheese
 

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Cirion

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Today's macros. You guys think my fat intake is too high for RP guidelines ? It was mostly saturated fat, lots of raw cheese

It's quite abit too high for my personal tastes, but some people here do well with high-ish fat so I can't answer that for you, you'll have to determine for yourself if it gives you good mental states / energy / body temps/pulses etc. But I would definitely minimize PUFA compared to SFA in either case, especially with that high of a total fat intake. How much PUFA total is that? Be careful about going overboard with tryptophan also. Your mileage may vary, but I'm very, very sensitive to tryptophan and having a lot of cheese can stack up the tryptophan rather quickly. I personally need way more carbs than that, but others do fine on that.

Ultimately as Ray says: the best method is experiment. Track various metrics, and see how things improve (or not).
 
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GreekDemiGod

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@Cirion I've definitely been seriously reducing my PUFA intake, from 20g or so to under 7g now.
I was not aware of tryptophan, so many new things I'm learning now.
 

baccheion

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Today's macros. You guys think my fat intake is too high for RP guidelines ? It was mostly saturated fat, lots of raw cheese
How much do you weigh (to estimate lean body mass).

1g protein per pound of LEAN body mass is usually sufficient if lifting (range: 0.8-1.2 g/lb LBM). If sedentary or lightly active, much less is needed (0.7 g/lb LBM stated as the amount to prevent muscle loss). There may be tests that check nitrogen balance to eliminate guessing.

Minimum protein, minimum half as many grams of fat as protein, and the rest from carbs. On the other hand, maybe you've been at this for a while and have customized it already.

Have you ever looked into genetic or food sensitivity testing?
 

Cirion

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@Cirion I've definitely been seriously reducing my PUFA intake, from 20g or so to under 7g now.
I was not aware of tryptophan, so many new things I'm learning now.

Yes a lot to learn! If there's one thing you should learn ASAP tho, it's experiment, experiment experiment. And track, track, track. Track anything. Track everything. If I could slap my younger self and tell myself to do this from day 1 I probably would be healed by now. I have been posting here like 2 yrs now and I didn't start making actual progress in figuring out how to get well until I started tracking anything and everything the past few months... so experimentation is super, super important, as is tracking progress... macros, micros, calories, weight change, temps, pulses, mood, libido, energy levels, motivation, CO2 (will be tracking CO2 once I buy a capnograph) basically anything I thought was significant to track. There are good theories to learn here, but at the end of the day... It doesn't matter if it doesn't apply to you, hence experiment. I do use the theories of Ray Peat as the basis of my experiments, but I don't treat them as the gospel (That said, I've found from experiments that the man is right on almost everything!!)

Tryptophan, serotonin, and aging

Good read on tryptophan.
 
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@baccheion @Kammas and others ...

I don't mean to hijack this thread but because I have similar issues, I was hoping you could comment on my bloodwork.
Even if I don't benefit, hopefully someone else will.

My biggest issue is complete lack of libido although restful sleep and general fatigue would not be far behind as issues.

TSH - 1.35 (range: 0.45 to 4.5)
T4 - 1.22 (range: 0.82 to 1.77)
T3 3.2 (range: 2.0 to 4.4)

Testosterone - 598 (range: 294-916)
Free T - 14.2 (range: 8.7-25.1)
SHBG - 41.9 (range: 16.5 to 55.9)
Estradiol - 18.2 (range: 8 to 35)

I'm on T3/T4 and am also supplementing with B complex.

Recently I added iron only because my ferritin was lowish at last check and I found a couple of threads here touting this as a potential quick fix.

I've also tried almost all the androgen boosters (tribulus, pine bark extract, sodium aspartate, longjack, holy basil) with no benefit whatsoever.
I have also supplemented on and off w/ vitamin D, zinc, gaba, melatonin, magnesium, theanine and others. Many of these are mainly just to induce sleep.

Diet: mainly fruit/fruit juice, MCT oil, beef (lots of it), sugar, maple syrup, potatoes/sweet potatoes, occasional shrimp/tuna
(I can't tolerate dairy or eggs)

If there are any other questions I can help answer to get feedback, please let me know.
 

gaze

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@baccheion @Kammas and others ...

I don't mean to hijack this thread but because I have similar issues, I was hoping you could comment on my bloodwork.
Even if I don't benefit, hopefully someone else will.

My biggest issue is complete lack of libido although restful sleep and general fatigue would not be far behind as issues.

TSH - 1.35 (range: 0.45 to 4.5)
T4 - 1.22 (range: 0.82 to 1.77)
T3 3.2 (range: 2.0 to 4.4)

Testosterone - 598 (range: 294-916)
Free T - 14.2 (range: 8.7-25.1)
SHBG - 41.9 (range: 16.5 to 55.9)
Estradiol - 18.2 (range: 8 to 35)

I'm on T3/T4 and am also supplementing with B complex.

Recently I added iron only because my ferritin was lowish at last check and I found a couple of threads here touting this as a potential quick fix.

I've also tried almost all the androgen boosters (tribulus, pine bark extract, sodium aspartate, longjack, holy basil) with no benefit whatsoever.
I have also supplemented on and off w/ vitamin D, zinc, gaba, melatonin, magnesium, theanine and others. Many of these are mainly just to induce sleep.

Diet: mainly fruit/fruit juice, MCT oil, beef (lots of it), sugar, maple syrup, potatoes/sweet potatoes, occasional shrimp/tuna
(I can't tolerate dairy or eggs)

If there are any other questions I can help answer to get feedback, please let me know.

Couple things
1. what does your exercise program look like if any
2. what would u estimate your bf% to be
3. the biggest problem I see is in just those numbers u provided is that your SHBG is kind of high. this can render free T inactive. One thing that reduces shbg is boron, which is kind of hard to get but the best way to get it is by eating raisins.
4. I would look into eating some greens/mineral water for calcium if your having trouble sleeping. are you getting 6 hours minimum most days?
5. If possible, I would get a micronutrient analysis. You may be a little short on selenium just based off the diet your telling me. have you tracked your food on cronometer?
6. by no libido, does that mean no morning woods or you can’t get it up during intercourse?
7. If your eating beef with no dairy, don’t take iron supplements. was your feratin below the normal range? if not then low iron is not the cause of your issues
 
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GreekDemiGod

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@baccheion I am now 158 - 160 lbs (71.5 kg) at ~11% BF due to losing a lot of weight on Carnivore. I was 168 lbs or so (76 kg) when I started Carnivore, in the spring.
I do 4-5 lifting sessions / week. Other than that, I am lightly active.
Have you ever looked into genetic or food sensitivity testing?
I haven't.
I wanted to give low-carb a go due to dealing with permanent bloating on the usual bodybuilding diets. I thought my digestion can't handle carbs well, even though, metabolically, I handle them great (did extensive blood glucose testing).
The only major improvement I saw with Carnivore was my digestion.

Now I realized it was the grains (oats) and the legumes). Since I've now finally cut them out, it's been better.
 

baccheion

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@baccheion @Kammas and others ...

I don't mean to hijack this thread but because I have similar issues, I was hoping you could comment on my bloodwork.
Even if I don't benefit, hopefully someone else will.

My biggest issue is complete lack of libido although restful sleep and general fatigue would not be far behind as issues.

TSH - 1.35 (range: 0.45 to 4.5)
T4 - 1.22 (range: 0.82 to 1.77)
T3 3.2 (range: 2.0 to 4.4)

Testosterone - 598 (range: 294-916)
Free T - 14.2 (range: 8.7-25.1)
SHBG - 41.9 (range: 16.5 to 55.9)
Estradiol - 18.2 (range: 8 to 35)

I'm on T3/T4 and am also supplementing with B complex.

Recently I added iron only because my ferritin was lowish at last check and I found a couple of threads here touting this as a potential quick fix.

I've also tried almost all the androgen boosters (tribulus, pine bark extract, sodium aspartate, longjack, holy basil) with no benefit whatsoever.
I have also supplemented on and off w/ vitamin D, zinc, gaba, melatonin, magnesium, theanine and others. Many of these are mainly just to induce sleep.

Diet: mainly fruit/fruit juice, MCT oil, beef (lots of it), sugar, maple syrup, potatoes/sweet potatoes, occasional shrimp/tuna
(I can't tolerate dairy or eggs)

If there are any other questions I can help answer to get feedback, please let me know.
Unsure. What about DHT? Low estradiol and/or high SHBG can result in lower libido. Same with low estradiol being associated with sleepiness and fatigue. SHBG has the highest affinity for DHT, then testosterone, then estrogen.

@baccheion I am now 158 - 160 lbs (71.5 kg) at ~11% BF due to losing a lot of weight on Carnivore. I was 168 lbs or so (76 kg) when I started Carnivore, in the spring.
I do 4-5 lifting sessions / week. Other than that, I am lightly active.

I haven't.
I wanted to give low-carb a go due to dealing with permanent bloating on the usual bodybuilding diets. I thought my digestion can't handle carbs well, even though, metabolically, I handle them great (did extensive blood glucose testing).
The only major improvement I saw with Carnivore was my digestion.

Now I realized it was the grains (oats) and the legumes). Since I've now finally cut them out, it's been better.
So that's ~142 grams protein to be 1g/lb LBM. And at least 71 grams fat.
 
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@Kammas - Thanks so much for being so generous with your time and helping me ...
Couple things
1. what does your exercise program look like if any

I try to do upper body weightlifting 1x to 2x per week. I try to walk as much as I can
but for the most part I have a sedentary job that makes it hard. I have sprinted and
worked out my lower body in the past but I was afraid it was screwing with my cortisol/
hypo condition so I haven't for a while.

2. what would u estimate your bf% to be

Probably 25% at least, I'm working on bringing it down. I'm 5'8" 184 but have a decent amount of muscle. Not skinny fat or anything.

3. the biggest problem I see is in just those numbers u provided is that your SHBG is kind of high. this can render free T inactive. One thing that reduces shbg is boron, which is kind of hard to get but the best way to get it is by eating raisins.

SHBG has been an issue for a while. The numbers were even worse when I was fasting. (they corresponded to an 80 yo level on their reference chart at the time)
I have supplemented with boron before but it's been a while. Is there an issue with getting it from supplements?
Nothing makes me gain weight faster than dried fruit otherwise I would be all for the raisins.

4. I would look into eating some greens/mineral water for calcium if your having trouble sleeping. are you getting 6 hours minimum most days?

I've avoided greens just because of the bias around here but yeah, OJ is one of my only calcium sources.
I'm usually in bed 7 to 8 hours but the sleep is not usually restful. I fall asleep pretty quickly but I wake up
2 to 4 times to urinate. And I can't really fall asleep w/ out melatonin, gaba, magnesium and others.
I've recently realized that starch has a huge effect on sleep quality so I am trying to add some without causing weight gain.

5. If possible, I would get a micronutrient analysis. You may be a little short on selenium just based off the diet your telling me. have you tracked your food on cronometer?

I forgot to add that I do eat at least 1 to 2 cans of oysters/week. I used to supplement selenium but haven't taken it for a while.
Here is my average micronutrients the last week ...

upload_2019-8-13_10-26-5.png


upload_2019-8-13_10-26-36.png


upload_2019-8-13_10-26-53.png
 
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6. by no libido, does that mean no morning woods or you can’t get it up during intercourse?

By libido I mean my involuntary interest in sex. So for example, I have had no drive to have sex at all the last 2 months
compared to when I was 20 years old, I would crave it constantly even when I wasn't overtly thinking about it.

I do get morning wood fairly consistently but the last few times when having intercourse, the erections and ejaculations were on the weak side.

7. If your eating beef with no dairy, don’t take iron supplements. was your feratin below the normal range? if not then low iron is not the cause of your issues

Ferritin was 85.4 at last check. It's probably nothing but there was a guy in a hypo/low libido thread saying he has fixed his own issues and that of many others with increasing ferritin to above 100.
 
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@Kammas - quick follow up to calcium. I haven't had it checked in a while but when I did, I had a level of 8.9
and this was at a time when I was eating dairy somewhat consistently.
And the range is 8.9 to 10.3. Now I have removed dairy to due intolerance so not sure what to do except I guess
load up on veggies?

@baccheion - It's been about 1/2 a year but last time I checked, my DHT was 51 (30 to 85 range)
Like I was telling Kammas, my SHBG has chronically been high and I have been trying everything
I know to decrease it (minimizing fiber, increasing carbs, etc.) Any other advice on this?
 

gaze

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@corvetteseeker

First thing Id do is cut out the melatonin. Peat is really anti melatonin as it basically acts like serotonin and this could be hindering your sleep long term. The morning woods are a very good sign and something you may be unfamiliar with is an overly aggressive sex drive is a sign of high estrogen, which isn’t ideal. A good sign of T is healthy morning woods, relaxed breathing throughout the day, no digestion problems, good in the gym, and the sex should be good to. but not necessarily a state of always thinking about sex, so don’t be too hard on yourself. your SHBG is a tad high but that’s it.

Do you eat gelatin with all the beef you eat?
Also are you getting sunlight?

25% bf is a little too high, could be aromatizing and be hindering your sleep. I would try to eat a tad less and cut down on the amount of fatty beef your eating and switch to more lean beef. You really only need around 60g a day total for T production IMO. Anything more cuts good blood flow i think. Also are you it’s grass finished beef right? on another note, if dried fruit makes you gain weight it’s a more of a sign that your diet may not be 100% optimal because that shouldn’t happen, but

honestly your nutrition looks pretty decent, it ultimately if it’s not getting you restful sleep, that’s gonna be a problem. Are you avoiding blue light at night, meditating, etc?

Also regarding calcium, I would try some raw goat cheese “parmissiano romano” as it is A2 casein and almost anyone can handle it. cows milk isn’t that good for T IMO. Some we’ll cooked kale spinach may also be decent, unless you really hate vegetables.

Overall I would work on losing a little bf by cutting down the amount of fat you eat. (nothing major). Maybe try eating some well cooked potato or even whole fruit. I find fiber from fruit to be a little relaxing and for me eating that much sugar doesn’t make me feel good, only if your digestion agrees with it of course. Cut out melatonin even if it hinders yours sleep. The melatonin alone may be the reason your not getting enough deep sleep. If you absolutely can’t sleep without it, i still wouldn’t take it. I’d just work on relaxation protocols, reading a book, sunlight during the day, and always remember it’s ok if you can’t sleep. Don’t stress about it and deal with less sleep until your body starts regulating its circadian rhythm naturally again. Also add in some cooked mushrooms, and make sure you eat the daily raw carrot. this fiber will help reduce estrogen and in turn reduce SHBG.
 

baccheion

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@corvetteseeker

First thing Id do is cut out the melatonin. Peat is really anti melatonin as it basically acts like serotonin and this could be hindering your sleep long term. The morning woods are a very good sign and something you may be unfamiliar with is an overly aggressive sex drive is a sign of high estrogen, which isn’t ideal. A good sign of T is healthy morning woods, relaxed breathing throughout the day, no digestion problems, good in the gym, and the sex should be good to. but not necessarily a state of always thinking about sex, so don’t be too hard on yourself. your SHBG is a tad high but that’s it.

Do you eat gelatin with all the beef you eat?
Also are you getting sunlight?

25% bf is a little too high, could be aromatizing and be hindering your sleep. I would try to eat a tad less and cut down on the amount of fatty beef your eating and switch to more lean beef. You really only need around 60g a day total for T production IMO. Anything more cuts good blood flow i think. Also are you it’s grass finished beef right? on another note, if dried fruit makes you gain weight it’s a more of a sign that your diet may not be 100% optimal because that shouldn’t happen, but

honestly your nutrition looks pretty decent, it ultimately if it’s not getting you restful sleep, that’s gonna be a problem. Are you avoiding blue light at night, meditating, etc?

Also regarding calcium, I would try some raw goat cheese “parmissiano romano” as it is A2 casein and almost anyone can handle it. cows milk isn’t that good for T IMO. Some we’ll cooked kale spinach may also be decent, unless you really hate vegetables.

Overall I would work on losing a little bf by cutting down the amount of fat you eat. (nothing major). Maybe try eating some well cooked potato or even whole fruit. I find fiber from fruit to be a little relaxing and for me eating that much sugar doesn’t make me feel good, only if your digestion agrees with it of course. Cut out melatonin even if it hinders yours sleep. The melatonin alone may be the reason your not getting enough deep sleep. If you absolutely can’t sleep without it, i still wouldn’t take it. I’d just work on relaxation protocols, reading a book, sunlight during the day, and always remember it’s ok if you can’t sleep. Don’t stress about it and deal with less sleep until your body starts regulating its circadian rhythm naturally again. Also add in some cooked mushrooms, and make sure you eat the daily raw carrot. this fiber will help reduce estrogen and in turn reduce SHBG.
300-1,000 mcg melatonin is fine.

DHEA lowers SHBG. Maybe magnesium as well.
 

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