Testosterone levels on oral test base

haidut

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TheBeard saw these results, but it seems he doesn’t think it’s possible.

p.7 of this thread :

(average result from 3 different saliva tests taken 30mn from each other at 7:30, 8:00, 8:30, last testosterone dose taken 24h before, nothing eaten for the last 15h, and just a small glass water taken to help salivating)

Your results actually make perfect sense, and do not contradict @TheBeard claims of no change in blood tests. In other words, it has already been documented that sometimes supplementing with steroids does not raise blood levels the slightest bit while causing saliva levels to skyrocket. So, the rise in saliva levels is a good indication that oral T is absorbed and distributed well as there is no way saliva levels can get that high without an exogenous supply. Unfortunately, saliva levels are indicative of local accumulation in salivary glands but do not correlate well with other tissues/organs so cannot be used to gauge whole-body distribution. However, it is pretty reliable test whether something taken orally absorbs well and gets systemically distributed. Studies with progesterone have documented extensively this discrepancy between serum and saliva levels after supplementation and it seems to apply to all steroids. Interestingly enough, the proposed explanation for this discrepancy is the same as the one given by Peat when describing his Progest-E product - i.e. he said the progesterone from Progest-E is carried by the red blood cells and that ensures good tissue distribution. Serum tests would not catch the steroid carried by the red blood cells but saliva and capillary blood tests would catch it. So, if somebody can find a lab that can do T tests from a finger prick bloodspot, that would be great. Those results should mimic the very high levels in saliva tests.
"...On the basis of the very low levels of progesterone observed in venous blood with transdermal progesterone, some researchers have concluded that transdermal progesterone is not well-absorbed and will not allow for adequate endometrial protection.[132][117] However, in spite of very low levels of progesterone in circulation, studies that have measured levels of progesterone in saliva and/or capillary blood with transdermal progesterone have found that they are dramatically elevated and in fact greatly supraphysiological.[116][117][132] In one study that used an oil-based cream or water-based gel, salivary and fingertip capillary blood levels of progesterone were found to be approximately 10-fold and 100-fold greater than venous blood levels, respectively.[116][132] The exact levels of progesterone were 4 to 12 ng/mL in saliva and 62 to 96 ng/mL in capillary blood; the reference ranges of progesterone in saliva and capillary blood from a cited laboratory were 0.75 to 2.5 ng/mL and 3.3 to 22.5 ng/mL for premenopausal women in the luteal phase and 0.12 to 1.0 ng/mL and 0.1 to 0.8 ng/mL in postmenopausal women, respectively.[116][132] As such, these data confirm distribution of progesterone to at least certain tissues with transdermal progesterone in spite of very low levels of progesterone in circulation and indicate that progesterone levels in venous blood cannot necessarily be used as an index of tissue exposure to progesterone with this route of administration.[116][117] These findings provide a possible explanation for how some studies found antiproliferative and atrophic changes in the endometrium with transdermal progesterone.[132][117] However, elevated levels of progesterone in the endometrium with transdermal progesterone have yet to be demonstrated.[117] Concern has been raised regarding transdermal progesterone in that the effects of such supraphysiological levels of progesterone in tissues are unknown and hence the potential for adverse effects has not been ruled out.[116] Salivary monitoring of progesterone levels in women using transdermal progesterone and adjustment of dosage as necessary has been suggested as a possible means to help prevent potential adverse effects.[116]. The mechanism by which transdermal progesterone in cream and water-based gel produces very high salivary and capillary blood levels in spite of low circulating levels is not well-understood.[116] However, at least two hypotheses have been proposed.[117][133] Steroid hormones including progesterone have been found to be transported by red blood cells in addition to serum carrier proteins like albumin, sex hormone-binding globulin, and corticosteroid-binding globulin, and as much as 15 to 35% of total steroid hormone content in whole blood may be confined to red blood cells.[117] According to the hypothesis, very high local concentrations of progesterone occur in skin capillaries after transdermal application and are taken up by red blood cells.[117] The transit time of red blood cells from capillaries and the release of steroid hormones from red blood cells are both very rapid, so it is suggested that progesterone is delivered through circulation to tissues via red blood cells without having time to equilibrate with systemic blood.[117] This could potentially explain the low levels of progesterone in venous blood in spite of very high levels in capillary blood and saliva.[117]"

As far as the serum levels, like I said in an earlier post, it often takes months to see difference when using the low(er), physiological doses. For immediate change, much higher doses are needed, as demonstrated by the Jatenzo studies - i.e. base-equivalent of 150mg T taken twice daily. Even then, serum levels peaked about 2 hours later, and returned to baseline about 12 hours later. So, if @TheBeard does blood tests, I would recomend taking that hefty dosage and then doing the blood draw no later than 3 hours later.
 

haidut

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Damn ... Peat has Progest-T --- The secret sauce. The holy gravy. The freshly squeezed juice.

Where can we get hold of this delicacy? (Excuse my excitement)

No, he doesn't have Progest-T, he just has a patent on it. T is a prescription (and DEA-controlled) chemical in the US and Peat cannot produce/sell it without both a compounding pharmacy license and a physician/DEA license.
 

Broken man

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Ye there is something more in play. When I started with 10 mg of T, I noticed it Fast .. good mood, oily forehead, alot of energy.... But now, I can take 60 mg or more and feel nothing, same with DHT.....
 
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TheBeard

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Desensitization of anabolic receptors ?

No such thing.
Study over study shows that there is a proliferation of androgen receptor number and an increase in their sensitivity to accomodate for higher level of androgens.

That is a common misconception that tries to compare the way androgens and opioids work.
With opioids there is, indeed, a decreased sensitivity of receptors over time.
With androgens it's the opposite.
 

Abmartich

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No such thing.
Study over study shows that there is a proliferation of androgen receptor number and an increase in their sensitivity to accomodate for higher level of androgens.

That is a common misconception that tries to compare the way androgens and opioids work.
With opioids there is, indeed, a decreased sensitivity of receptors over time.
With androgens it's the opposite.
I think there is a difference between supplying a bioindentic hormone and a non-bioindentic one.

Bioindential hormones bind to the receptor while non-bioindentic hormones cause long-term receptor disruption. For this reason, perhaps the consumers of anabolic steroids never recover, although they reactivate their endogenous production after stopping the drugs, their hormones cannot be used due to their deformed receptors.
 

haidut

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Ye there is something more in play. When I started with 10 mg of T, I noticed it Fast .. good mood, oily forehead, alot of energy.... But now, I can take 60 mg or more and feel nothing, same with DHT.....

Likely the same thing that is play with oral progesterone in vitamin E. Namely, Peat has told people many times that taking larger doses (I think he said 50mg+ daily) for more than a week increases the processing/excretion of progesterone by the liver and kidneys. In other words, the body adapts to the higher dose by increasing its excretion/disposal. This is actually a good thing and something that is expected of every "catatoxic" steroid, which progesterone is but so are T, DHT, DHEA, and pregnenolone (and a few synthetic ones Selye wrote about, such as spironolactone). So, lower doses, taken more often are probably a better approach in order to keep the strong effects. The other option is to take breaks, which is what bodybuilders do as they have noticed that even massive daily doses of T (700mg+ weekly, by injection) eventually lose most of the effect, so that's how/why they came up with the ideas of a "cycle" and PCT. A third option would be to take the smaller doses of T/DHT (as discussed earlier in the thread, with respect to avoiding suppression) with some pregnenolone, which apparently potentiates the effects of a smaller dose of an endpoint steroid like T/DHT. This effect is described in the main post of the Pansterone thread. Another chemical with similar effects is caffeine - taking a steroid with caffeine increases its cellular uptake and effects and allows lower doses to be used, which may help avoid getting "desensitized".

@Yucca @TheBeard
 

Ryan33

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Likely the same thing that is play with oral progesterone in vitamin E. Namely, Peat has told people many times that taking larger doses (I think he said 50mg+ daily) for more than a week increases the processing/excretion of progesterone by the liver and kidneys. In other words, the body adapts to the higher dose by increasing its excretion/disposal. This is actually a good thing and something that is expected of every "catatoxic" steroid, which progesterone is but so are T, DHT, DHEA, and pregnenolone (and a few synthetic ones Selye wrote about, such as spironolactone). So, lower doses, taken more often are probably a better approach in order to keep the strong effects. The other option is to take breaks, which is what bodybuilders do as they have noticed that even massive daily doses of T (700mg+ weekly, by injection) eventually lose most of the effect, so that's how/why they came up with the ideas of a "cycle" and PCT. A third option would be to take the smaller doses of T/DHT (as discussed earlier in the thread, with respect to avoiding suppression) with some pregnenolone, which apparently potentiates the effects of a smaller dose of an endpoint steroid like T/DHT. This effect is described in the main post of the Pansterone thread. Another chemical with similar effects is caffeine - taking a steroid with caffeine increases its cellular uptake and effects and allows lower doses to be used, which may help avoid getting "desensitized".

@Yucca @TheBeard
So haidut would me splitting my 20 mg dose Into 3 or 4 times a day actually be better than the twice a day I do now?
 
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eat my peat

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that's how/why they came up with the ideas of a "cycle" and PCT
Is it necessary to "cycle" oral T... Or can you just stop cold turkey and will bounce back in no time?

could be mistaken but think someone mentioned that when they stopped taking oral T their levels were actually higher than prior to starting their cylce?
 

Yucca

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I always have taken my T with 5-6x preg doses (about 20mg T with 100 to 150mg preg), maybe it’s the reason why it’s still working for me…

In fact , I was on preg months before beginning to take T (helps for mental clarity, better memory for me)
 

haidut

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So haidut would me splitting my 20 mg dose Into 3 or 4 times a day actually be better than the twice a day I do now?

I don't know if you should, but if you are experiencing desensitization, it is one thing to consider trying. The other options are using pregnenolone and/or caffeine with the T.
 

haidut

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could be mistaken but think someone mentioned that when they stopped taking oral T their levels were actually higher than prior to starting their cylce?

Yep, this has also been shown to happen in studies. While taking T in sufficiently high doses suppresses endogenous production, it also upregulates the enzymes needed to synthesize T. So, when the exogenous supplementation is stopped and the suppression wanes, the gonads are capable of synthesizing more T than before using exogenous T. Almost at the level or a 20yo person. Using pregnenolone to prevent suppression possibly amplifies this effect even more.
 

Ryan33

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I don't know if you should, but if you are experiencing desensitization, it is one thing to consider trying. The other options are using pregnenolone and/or caffeine with the T.
Cool. Yeah I use about 60mg of pregnenolone with 10mg of test for both doses.....about 12 hours apart
 
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TheBeard

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which is what bodybuilders do as they have noticed that even massive daily doses of T (700mg+ weekly, by injection) eventually lose most of the effect,

I don't see many bodybuilders suddenly needing 800mg instead of 700mg to maintain the same amount of muscle mass, and then after another month needing 1g.
You sustain whatever amount of muscle that x amount of drugs is able to maintain.
It behaves as a constant, not a variable.

Otherwise bodybuilders who started their carrier at 500mg would need 10g 20 years after to maintain their mass.
 

brix

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I made a mix of EVOO and test base powder. Do I need to do anything to it to dissolve the test? light heat?
 

Yucca

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I don't see many bodybuilders suddenly needing 800mg instead of 700mg to maintain the same amount of muscle mass, and then after another month needing 1g.
You sustain whatever amount of muscle that x amount of drugs is able to maintain.
It behaves as a constant, not a variable.

Otherwise bodybuilders who started their carrier at 500mg would need 10g 20 years after to maintain their mass.

Not 10g, but 2-3g. Many needs easily about 6-800mg for PCT only (and shrink if less taken), after years of continuous use.

And 10g roids total/week is quite fluent for pro IFBB guys...(+ hgh, igf1 and some other stuff)
 
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TheBeard

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Not 10g, but 2-3g. Many needs easily about 6-800mg for PCT only (and shrink if less taken), after years of continuous use.

And 10g roids total/week is quite fluent for pro IFBB guys...(+ hgh, igf1 and some other stuff)

They increase their dosage to incrase their size.
But those who maintain their dosage maintain their size.
 

Ryan33

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I made a mix of EVOO and test base powder. Do I need to do anything to it to dissolve the test? light heat?
Mine dissolved great in tocovit. But when I used health naturas whole e I had to add a little everclear to get it to dissolve. How much olive oil/ test base did you use?
 

A.R

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No such thing.
Study over study shows that there is a proliferation of androgen receptor number and an increase in their sensitivity to accomodate for higher level of androgens.

That is a common misconception that tries to compare the way androgens and opioids work.
With opioids there is, indeed, a decreased sensitivity of receptors over time.
With androgens it's the opposite.
You have mentioned before about your Mercury problems in your body, maybe all that is having an effect on how your body uses steroids?
Also how is your chelation protocol going?
 

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