Testimonial For Niacin - It Just Works

[redsun]

what would undermethylation do. too much dopamine, histamine, acetylcholine?
yeah true, my choline is like 300mg a day. rda is considered 550mg so its 50%.

I said betaine is interchangeable with b12/folate with regards to homocysteine lowering, obviously two of them are considered essential vitamins while betaine itself is a metabolite of choline. As far as lowering homocysteine, from what I remember they could cover for each other and had redundant effects if combined. I have heard of b12 and b9 depleting each other before but did not know betaine depletes those two. the thing is you technically do not need to intake methylb12, methylfolate, and trimethylglycine, just dietary b12, b9, choline, should be enough if you intake them. betaine isn't in many foods.

Generally high histamine is the main cause of problems in undermethylation. Betaine is made from choline. Some foods like wheat can provide betaine. Whether you are deficient in folate, B12, and choline you may need it. Choline can be easily obtained from plenty of eggs but problems with B12 absorption or low B12 intake is common and likewise can cause deficiency.

 

[BigChad]

Generally high histamine is the main cause of problems in undermethylation. Betaine is made from choline. Some foods like wheat can provide betaine. Whether you are deficient in folate, B12, and choline you may need it. Choline can be easily obtained from plenty of eggs but problems with B12 absorption or low B12 intake is common and likewise can cause deficiency.

I got high histamine symptoms, although I was using niacinamide which is supposedly much more powerful of a methyl group depleter than niacin. Actually it was 80mg niacinamide and 40mg niacin a day.
for some reason, apple cider vinegar, whether liquid or capsule form, causes severe stomach irritation/upper stomach pain for me. Magnesium malate, and malic acid also causes something similar. citric acid causes something similar if I do higher amounts of it. Anything more than 2 whole eggs, or egg whites in general, also cause a similar effect. whey protein, milk, lemonade/orange juice, oranges, meats, sodas with phosphoric acid, do not cause this sort of effect. I'm not sure why eggs would cause it, I think due to the sulfur in them.

btw do you know if regular folic acid is fine to take, 400mcg every other day? I heard there are several issues with the folic acid form, yet also that methylated b vitamins should be avoided due to methylation speeding up the aging and cancer process.
I have also heard regardless, creatine should be supplemented to reduce strain on the methylation cycle. Normally a lot of methylation is directed towards making creatine.

 

[Goobz]

niacin is said to lower thyroid hormones. you do not notice this effect from it? hypothyroid symptoms, weight gain? what is your overall diet like.
Also, why do you say obese and overweight people are overmethylated? Wouldn't undermethylation cause weight issues in particular, since undermethylation causes fatigue, poor liver function? People who are overmethylated would have excess energy? Overmethylation would speed up the metabolism or have hyperthyroid like symptoms?

Also do you need choline intake if you are getting lots of methionine (150g+ protein a day from beef and dairy)?
from my understanding methionine needs to go through a conversion process, so choline/methionine may not be enough to counteract niacin/niacinamides effects on methyl group depletion? I think betaine tmg is interchangeable with methylfolate and methylb12 as far as lowering homocysteine. I haven't seen that choline/methionine alone can fill in for methyl group donors.

I think I posted a link earlier which mentioned that niacin has some effect on methyl group depletion, while niacinamide has a much larger effect, and nicotinamide riboside has the least effect. So the fact you are using regular niacin instead of niacinamide could be why you haven't noticed methyl group issues with it. Maybe niacin simply isn't that potent in depleting methyl groups. there still seems to be potential for hypothyroidism from it (though I think it was mentioned thyroid hormones returned to normal after niacin was stopped)

Niacin / nicotinamides depletion of the methyl donors in the blood seems to center around betaine, which is why it’s recommended to supplement along with B3. I don’t think methyl B12 would necessarily fill the gap in the same way.

 

[BigChad]

Niacin / nicotinamides depletion of the methyl donors in the blood seems to center around betaine, which is why it’s recommended to supplement along with B3. I don’t think methyl B12 would necessarily fill the gap in the same way.

True actually, if they are equivalent in terms of grams, b12 and folate are takin in just mch dosages while niacin, betaine and methionine are in mg or gram doses.
Do you think 500mg betaine tmg per day is worth taking just as insurance. Whether you use niacin supplements or not

 

[Goobz]

True actually, if they are equivalent in terms of grams, b12 and folate are takin in just mch dosages while niacin, betaine and methionine are in mg or gram doses.
Do you think 500mg betaine tmg per day is worth taking just as insurance. Whether you use niacin supplements or not

Well my post was directed towards protecting against potential problems caused by niacin, for which betaine/tmg seems the most useful. But if you’re not taking niacin, I’d say getting some tmg via diet (beets etc) and sufficient choline would probably be fine, since betaine/tmg is also a metabolite of choline. Just my own opinion and I’m no expert in this area

 

[redsun]

This is sort of an update. Been 2 weeks since I made this thread and probably almost a month since starting niacin experimentation. I have noticed if I were to not take niacin for a few days, by the 2nd day I start to get belching out of no where(even when I haven't eaten in the morning and just drank some juice or milk or nothing at all). Then I start back up and it goes away. I forgot how annoying digestive disturbances can be.

I dont know if I already mentioned this but I attempted T3 tyronene awhile ago and it had similar effects of digestion, which was reduced symptoms of indigestion and digestive problems. Niacin seemingly does the same thing without me having to rely on T3. Better to replete a vitamin than use T3 to bandaid digestion. Nothing wrong with T3 of course but its always best to find the root issue if possible.

 

[charlie]

This is sort of an update. Been 2 weeks since I made this thread and probably almost a month since starting niacin experimentation. I have noticed if I were to not take niacin for a few days, by the 2nd day I start to get belching out of no where(even when I haven't eaten in the morning and just drank some juice or milk or nothing at all). Then I start back up and it goes away. I forgot how annoying digestive disturbances can be.

I dont know if I already mentioned this but I attempted T3 tyronene awhile ago and it had similar effects of digestion, which was reduced symptoms of indigestion and digestive problems. Niacin seemingly does the same thing without me having to rely on T3. Better to replete a vitamin than use T3 to bandaid digestion. Nothing wrong with T3 of course but its always best to find the root issue if possible.

Fantastic update. Thank you for sharing.

 

[BigChad]

Well my post was directed towards protecting against potential problems caused by niacin, for which betaine/tmg seems the most useful. But if you’re not taking niacin, I’d say getting some tmg via diet (beets etc) and sufficient choline would probably be fine, since betaine/tmg is also a metabolite of choline. Just my own opinion and I’m no expert in this area

its fine to take 500mg betaine tmg alongside 100mg or 200mg niacin? or do they need to be taken separate

 

[Goobz]

its fine to take 500mg betaine tmg alongside 100mg or 200mg niacin? or do they need to be taken separate

No idea but I’d imagine it’s fine, haven’t heard of anything about them interacting.

 

[Andy316]

Im a overmethylator and react badly to methyl donors (B6, B9, b12). I am Thinking of starting supplementing Betaine HCL with Pepsin (which is supposedly a methyl donor), wpuld supplementing niacin along with it cause less anxiety and other bad symptoms?

 

[BigChad]

Im a overmethylator and react badly to methyl donors (B6, B9, b12). I am Thinking of starting supplementing Betaine HCL with Pepsin (which is supposedly a methyl donor), wpuld supplementing niacin along with it cause less anxiety and other bad symptoms?

B6 is a phosphate thing?
Also isnt the methyl in the methyl bs extremely small

 

[Andy316]

B6 is a phosphate thing?
Also isnt the methyl in the methyl bs extremely small

It could be but emotional turbulence I went through after supplementing Methyl B6/B9/B12 was extremely bad. I thought it was only the methyl B's but no, got the same reaction from normal B vits too. But im interested in doing a betaine HCL test to support my low stomach acid but also worried it may give me similar issues as the methyl B's so thinking maybe niacin with betaine HCL?? Your thoughts/experiences appreciated.

 

[redsun]

Im a overmethylator and react badly to methyl donors (B6, B9, b12). I am Thinking of starting supplementing Betaine HCL with Pepsin (which is supposedly a methyl donor), wpuld supplementing niacin along with it cause less anxiety and other bad symptoms?

If you react badly, then you need unmethylated folate, folic acid. Usually overmethylators are good with B12 status, but folic acid is incredibly low. Methylfolate is usual recommendation but some people are so sensitive to methyl groups that folic acid is used. Folic acid is not enough to fix it, and lots of niacin lowers histamine over time and you end up with less in the end. Folic acid plus making sure to avoid excess B1, B2, B3, B6, vitamin C, calcium, and copper should allow the histamine levels to build up without being degraded and excreted too quickly. Calcium also reduces histamine by releasing it, thats why its recommended for histadelics(undermethylators) as even though it can exacerbate high histamine it will lower histamine in the long term. Zinc, vitamin E are also considered natural antihistamines if overdone.

If you have low stomach acid I would supplement niacin though as you need it for acid production. Smaller doses(40mg/meal) work just fine.

 

[Vinny]

Took today first time niacin 250 mg.
I,m impressed!
It,s the only supp from many i,ve tried so far, that I really feel it does something. This flush is very interesting sensation!
Will be like that every time, @redsun, or the body will eventually get used to it? I mean, I don,t mind the reaction, but at work would may be a little embarasing...
And, when I should start to increase the dosage?

 

[redsun]

Took today first time niacin 250 mg.
I,m impressed!
It,s the only supp from many i,ve tried so far, that I really feel it does something. This flush is very interesting sensation!
Will be like that every time, @redsun, or the body will eventually get used to it? I mean, I don,t mind the reaction, but at work would may be a little embarasing...
And, when I should start to increase the dosage?

For stomach acid production and overall gut health 250mg per meal is more than enough. The flush will get less over time if consistent. If you stop for a few days then start again the flush will be back. It will take some time for improvement in digestion but it's absolutely worth it. I am back down to 250mg as well, no longer do the higher doses as I dont think it makes a difference for stomach acid.

 

[charlie]

Friendly reminder that even on the niacin forums they suggest starting very low, like 25mg and slowly working your way up.

If you react badly, then you need unmethylated folate, folic acid. Usually overmethylators are good with B12 status, but folic acid is incredibly low. Methylfolate is usual recommendation but some people are so sensitive to methyl groups that folic acid is used. Folic acid is not enough to fix it, and lots of niacin lowers histamine over time and you end up with less in the end. Folic acid plus making sure to avoid excess B1, B2, B3, B6, vitamin C, calcium, and copper should allow the histamine levels to build up without being degraded and excreted too quickly. Calcium also reduces histamine by releasing it, thats why its recommended for histadelics(undermethylators) as even though it can exacerbate high histamine it will lower histamine in the long term. Zinc, vitamin E are also considered natural antihistamines if overdone.

If you have low stomach acid I would supplement niacin though as you need it for acid production. Smaller doses(40mg/meal) work just fine.

Hmm, I think I might be an overmethylator. Methyl form gives me anxiety. So your basically saying Folic acid needs to be brought in to balance things out?

 

[redsun]

Friendly reminder that even on the niacin forums they suggest starting very low, like 25mg and slowly working your way up.


Hmm, I think I might be an overmethylator. Methyl form gives me anxiety. So your basically saying Folic acid needs to be brought in to balance things out?

According to pfeiffer, overmethylators have very low folic acid levels and high copper levels. Personally I dont know how convinced I am of about the copper as of late, but I do know, taking folic acid or methylfolate or anything else that is supposed to help overmethylators has tremendously helped my paranoia/anxiety/sleep issues and emotional bluntness(less blunt emotion). Funnily enough if you look on google one of the "side effects" of folate or folic acid is "depressed or overly excited".

If an undermethylator takes folate, they can become depressed, if an overmethylator does, the opposite happens, excitement. I never got anxiety from methylfolate though I read some are sensitive to the methyl. Thats the best way to describe myself when I take lots of methylfolate(what Im currently taking now), makes me feel like a new person and its not an exaggeration. Gets rid of my strong emotional bluntness. I suppose I am not sensitive to methylfolate's methyl group then others, but you may be. Folic acid may work better for you as to not add more methyl.

 

[charlie]

According to pfeiffer, overmethylators have very low folic acid levels and high copper levels. Personally I dont know how convinced I am of about the copper as of late, but I do know, taking folic acid or methylfolate or anything else that is supposed to help overmethylators has tremendously helped my paranoia/anxiety/sleep issues and emotional bluntness(less blunt emotion). Funnily enough if you look on google one of the "side effects" of folate or folic acid is "depressed or overly excited".

If an undermethylator takes folate, they can become depressed, if an overmethylator does, the opposite happens, excitement. I never got anxiety from methylfolate though I read some are sensitive to the methyl. Thats the best way to describe myself when I take lots of methylfolate(what Im currently taking now), makes me feel like a new person and its not an exaggeration. Gets rid of my strong emotional bluntness. I suppose I am not sensitive to methylfolate's methyl group then others, but you may be. Folic acid may work better for you as to not add more methyl.

Thanks a bunch. I will give it a try.

 

[Andy316]

Thanks a lot Redsum, I'll buy the Niacin along with Betaine HCL and try each.

If you react badly, then you need unmethylated folate, folic acid. Usually overmethylators are good with B12 status, but folic acid is incredibly low. Methylfolate is usual recommendation but some people are so sensitive to methyl groups that folic acid is used. Folic acid is not enough to fix it, and lots of niacin lowers histamine over time and you end up with less in the end. Folic acid plus making sure to avoid excess B1, B2, B3, B6, vitamin C, calcium, and copper should allow the histamine levels to build up without being degraded and excreted too quickly. Calcium also reduces histamine by releasing it, thats why its recommended for histadelics(undermethylators) as even though it can exacerbate high histamine it will lower histamine in the long term. Zinc, vitamin E are also considered natural antihistamines if overdone.

If you have low stomach acid I would supplement niacin though as you need it for acid production. Smaller doses(40mg/meal) work just fine.

 

[Vinny]

For stomach acid production and overall gut health 250mg per meal is more than enough. The flush will get less over time if consistent. If you stop for a few days then start again the flush will be back. It will take some time for improvement in digestion but it's absolutely worth it. I am back down to 250mg as well, no longer do the higher doses as I dont think it makes a difference for stomach acid.

Thank you