Temps Rose - Now Body Aches And Blah Feeling For A Few Weeks

[Kelj]

Ever seen my 600 lb life? All they do is rest and eat and are plagued with a myriad of health problems. I strongly agree with the idea of listening to your body and intuitive eating, but there are most certainly foods that are conducive towards proper health and foods that are not, and without a strongly cultivated awareness of what is truly needed when, people will eat incorrectly and degenerate.

Fat is an organ. It is not metabolically inert. The more fat you carry, the more you must eat before your body is convinced there is enough in the environment. For sure, a 600 lb. person has been forever cycling through one day eating a little then the next day eating more. That is how people get that big. Does anyone ever treat this condition with consistently as much as that person wants to eat? No. They are forever being told to restrict more. It looks like a lot of food they eat, but they must to support their bigger body. The body does not use fat stores until there are enough calories in the environment, or when there is sustained starvation. But, initiating starvation on purpose (calorie restriction) will cause another period of fat storage when it ends. There is only one permanent way out of this cycle. The good news is, when fat storage is in extreme excess, it actually comes off faster than when there is little, provided the calories are all the body is asking for. Gastric bypass surgery is the great admission of defeat in solving this situation. The sad truth is, the problem has been created by those of us who have given the wrong advice to others about eating. Eat abundantly and consistently of as wide a variety of foods as you can obtain. That is the right advice for everyone.

 

[ecstatichamster]

So @Kelj I want to be around 180 and now I'm 195. I should eat more than normal to lose fat?

 

[Runenight201]

Fat is an organ. It is not metabolically inert. The more fat you carry, the more you must eat before your body is convinced there is enough in the environment. For sure, a 600 lb. person has been forever cycling through one day eating a little then the next day eating more. That is how people get that big. Does anyone ever treat this condition with consistently as much as that person wants to eat? No. They are forever being told to restrict more. It looks like a lot of food they eat, but they must to support their bigger body. The body does not use fat stores until there are enough calories in the environment, or when there is sustained starvation. But, initiating starvation on purpose (calorie restriction) will cause another period of fat storage when it ends. There is only one permanent way out of this cycle. The good news is, when fat storage is in extreme excess, it actually comes off faster than when there is little, provided the calories are all the body is asking for. Gastric bypass surgery is the great admission of defeat in solving this situation. The sad truth is, the problem has been created by those of us who have given the wrong advice to others about eating. Eat abundantly and consistently of as wide a variety of foods as you can obtain. That is the right advice for everyone.

There’s a lady on my 600 lb life who purposely eats a large amount of calories because she makes money off of men watching her eat. She is severely obese. By your theory she should be steadily losing weight, but that isn’t the case. Away from an n=1 case, the worlds strongest men never restrict calories because they need loads of energy to be as strong as they are, and they all walk around with bloated guts and excess body fat.

We should all eat intuitively and eat a variety of foods that solve whatever physiological need our body requires, whether it’s an energetic, digestive, or inflammatory one. But blindly eating for the sake of eating is a recipe for disaster. Negative symptoms are a direct response of food being consumed. Many times the negatives of one food can be negated by the consumption of other foods, which is why a balanced varied diet works so wonderfully. I think that Matt Stone approach, while it has some merits, can be dangerous for many people, should they not be cultivating physiological awareness and changing eating habits as they learn more about how they respond to certain foods within certain physiological contexts. Pushing through negative symptoms to reach some silver lining is very common in many extreme dietary plans. It has always ended poorly in my experience, especially when just a single proper meal can leave me feeling fully energized, strong, and healthy.

 

[Cirion]

There’s a lady on my 600 lb life who purposely eats a large amount of calories because she makes money off of men watching her eat. She is severely obese. By your theory she should be steadily losing weight, but that isn’t the case. Away from an n=1 case, the worlds strongest men never restrict calories because they need loads of energy to be as strong as they are, and they all walk around with bloated guts and excess body fat.

We should all eat intuitively and eat a variety of foods that solve whatever physiological need our body requires, whether it’s an energetic, digestive, or inflammatory one. But blindly eating for the sake of eating is a recipe for disaster. Negative symptoms are a direct response of food being consumed. Many times the negatives of one food can be negated by the consumption of other foods, which is why a balanced varied diet works so wonderfully. I think that Matt Stone approach, while it has some merits, can be dangerous for many people, should they not be cultivating physiological awareness and changing eating habits as they learn more about how they respond to certain foods within certain physiological contexts. Pushing through negative symptoms to reach some silver lining is very common in many extreme dietary plans. It has always ended poorly in my experience, especially when just a single proper meal can leave me feeling fully energized, strong, and healthy.

I have to say @Kelj experiences really interest me so I'm curious to the response.

I will say though at least in the context of powerlifters, the reason they remain fat is IMO due to the excessive stress that such a lifestyle puts you through. Exercise, especially excess, stressful exercise is NOT the answer for a healthy body.

 

[Kelj]

There’s a lady on my 600 lb life who purposely eats a large amount of calories because she makes money off of men watching her eat. She is severely obese. By your theory she should be steadily losing weight, but that isn’t the case. Away from an n=1 case, the worlds strongest men never restrict calories because they need loads of energy to be as strong as they are, and they all walk around with bloated guts and excess body fat.

We should all eat intuitively and eat a variety of foods that solve whatever physiological need our body requires, whether it’s an energetic, digestive, or inflammatory one. But blindly eating for the sake of eating is a recipe for disaster. Negative symptoms are a direct response of food being consumed. Many times the negatives of one food can be negated by the consumption of other foods, which is why a balanced varied diet works so wonderfully. I think that Matt Stone approach, while it has some merits, can be dangerous for many people, should they not be cultivating physiological awareness and changing eating habits as they learn more about how they respond to certain foods within certain physiological contexts. Pushing through negative symptoms to reach some silver lining is very common in many extreme dietary plans. It has always ended poorly in my experience, especially when just a single proper meal can leave me feeling fully energized, strong, and healthy.

I am not talking about anything extreme. I am talking about how people have eaten until recently. Regularly eating meals together from what was available in their climate, when there was no food poverty with no intellectual worries about the calories and other elements in food they knew nothing about. What I know without a doubt is, when I see an obese person, I am looking at an erratic eater. They intermittently starve or force-feed for a reason, like sports (sumo...football), culture ( some nations who want their women fat) or, like the woman you referenced, pleasing men. I have never said force feed anything. I have said, eat what you want or, as Ray puts it, "what seems most delicious to you".

 

[Kelj]

I have to say @Kelj experiences really interest me so I'm curious to the response.

I will say though at least in the context of powerlifters, the reason they remain fat is IMO due to the excessive stress that such a lifestyle puts you through. Exercise, especially excess, stressful exercise is NOT the answer for a healthy body.

Agreed. An example of force-feeding, often, especially protein, which world-wide, is about 15% of calories when it is left up to desire alone.

 

[Kelj]

So @Kelj I want to be around 180 and now I'm 195. I should eat more than normal to lose fat?

If you eat what you want, you will eventually attain your normal fat to fat-free mass. Only after (probably) putting on some to make up for the restriction (calorie counting). Be brave. It's the only way out of the storage cycle. Read edinstitute to support your psyche.

 

[Cirion]

Agreed. An example of force-feeding, often, especially protein, which world-wide, is about 15% of calories when it is left up to desire alone.

Yeah excess protein is not interesting to me. Now, show me a huge papa johns pizza and I could eat that all up easily LOL. Probably for the very reason that its rich in both carbs and fats which are both fuels the body likes to use.

Bodybuilders in particular are SUPER notorious for eating way too high protein lol. It's not unheard of for giants like Ronnie coleman to talk about eating 400-500 gram of protein. It's even not unheard of for bodybuilders to eat MOST (as much as 75%) of calories from protein, when "cutting". I still remember this older 50+ yr old guy, ripped but probably HORRIBLY unhealthy as he only ate like 1800 calories a day, with 300-350 grams of protein out of that paltry food income.

 

[Runenight201]

I am not talking about anything extreme. I am talking about how people have eaten until recently. Regularly eating meals together from what was available in their climate, when there was no food poverty with no intellectual worries about the calories and other elements in food they knew nothing about. What I know without a doubt is, when I see an obese person, I am looking at an erratic eater. They intermittently starve or force-feed for a reason, like sports (sumo...football), culture ( some nations who want their women fat) or, like the woman you referenced, pleasing men. I have never said force feed anything. I have said, eat what you want or, as Ray puts it, "what seems most delicious to you".

Im no expert on the psychological disposition of obese people, but through my encounters of many people who come into the gym asking me about weight loss, the most common message I hear is that they eat whatever they want and now they are looking for some dietary guidance and exercise regimen to lose it.

I believe it more has to do with the set of foods they are eating from. We have needs for salt, sugar, micronutrients, macronutrients, etc... the obese person seeks to meet these needs through consuming suboptimal foods, such as fried foods, chips, pastries, and desserts. We need to be eating according to our appetite, but a sweetened milk beverage with maple syrup or sugar is much more conducive to health than ice cream. The milk drink will satisfy the sweet tooth and give health and satiation, while the ice cream satisfies the sweet tooth but doesn’t lead to true satiation and good health.

Our food choices matter. If eating whatever you want leads towards eating the health promoting foods, as it did in my case, then it is a good strategy. I would often eat whatever looked appetizing for a meal, such as fried wings and French fries, only to immediately encounter nasal congestion, allergies, and low energy. I no longer consume French fries and fried wings because I know how it makes me feel, and I was able to update my appetite accordingly. If I look at fries and crave them, I usually recognize it as a need for salt and energy, and eat my lard soup, which brings me immense well-being and is very tasty.

We agree on the eat what you want part, but we have to update our food choices based on our immediate response to that food, and that’s where we disagree. Things certainly get complex, because depending on what has been priorly consumed, how much physical activity has been undertaken, and how taxed the stomach is all change what is necessary to eat any given time to maintain optimal health. It took me a solid couple months of experimenting to find a set of foods that consistently work for me, and I feel very confident in recommending them for everyone to consume, because I think they are health promoting.

 

[Cirion]

Im no expert on the psychological disposition of obese people, but through my encounters of many people who come into the gym asking me about weight loss, the most common message I hear is that they eat whatever they want and now they are looking for some dietary guidance and exercise regimen to lose it.

Most obese people as Kelj rightfully noted intermittently eat though, go long periods without eating and then decide to pig out in one sitting. It is the intermittent starvation that causes the problems in that context. Then they feel bad for pigging out, so they decide to fast or only eat salads the next day, until their hunger drives them crazy and they binge again. I really doubt most obese people eat consistently or avoid fasting or intermittent dieting in some form or fashion. This seems to hold true for the fat people I know. Take my older coworker for example. I have seen what he brings for lunch at work. Tiny tiny portions of food, maybe 400 calories at most. But then I bet he'll have times like dinner or perhaps going out to a restaurant or event that maybe then he decides to eat a big 2000 calorie meal (Just guessing, I don't know here). You can't just eat a small amount now and then and then eat a big meal and expect to be healthy. I knew this obese woman a few years ago also. She barely ate anything most days, but then would pig out every once in a while for a birthday party or going out to restaurants etc. Easily 300+ lb and same age as me at the time (and myself only weighing 160 lb at the time) with me eating 2,3, or even 4x as much food yet being leaner.

The fact is that MOST people (even skinnier, leaner people) rely on CAFFEINE or other drugs for energy and not FOOD!

 

[oldmanthunder]

We need to be eating according to our appetite, but a sweetened milk beverage with maple syrup or sugar is much more conducive to health than ice cream. The milk drink will satisfy the sweet tooth and give health and satiation, while the ice cream satisfies the sweet tooth but doesn’t lead to true satiation and good health.

I get your point but what's the rationale between opposing these two foods? Both are dairy based, high sugar, high fat. Ice cream has egg yolks and is solid so it seems more nutrient dense and satiating than liquid milk

 

[oldmanthunder]

Most obese people as Kelj rightfully noted intermittently eat though, go long periods without eating and then decide to pig out in one sitting. It is the intermittent starvation that causes the problems in that context. Then they feel bad for pigging out, so they decide to fast or only eat salads the next day, until their hunger drives them crazy and they binge again. I really doubt most obese people eat consistently or avoid fasting or intermittent dieting in some form or fashion. This seems to hold true for the fat people I know. Take my older coworker for example. I have seen what he brings for lunch at work. Tiny tiny portions of food, maybe 400 calories at most. But then I bet he'll have times like dinner or perhaps going out to a restaurant or event that maybe then he decides to eat a big 2000 calorie meal (Just guessing, I don't know here). You can't just eat a small amount now and then and then eat a big meal and expect to be healthy. I knew this obese woman a few years ago also. She barely ate anything most days, but then would pig out every once in a while for a birthday party or going out to restaurants etc. Easily 300+ lb and same age as me at the time (and myself only weighing 160 lb at the time) with me eating 2,3, or even 4x as much food yet being leaner.

The fact is that MOST people (even skinnier, leaner people) rely on CAFFEINE or other drugs for energy and not FOOD!

Your examples are pretty useless comparing they are completely based on the assumption that the obese people you know are not chronically overeating, which you have absolutely no way of knowing. Having read a few of your posts, I've observed that you have the nasty habit of forming predetermined opinions and looking for data to validate them, often skewing and twisting the data to make it fit.

My take on obesity is that it is mainly psychological. You are right that a lot of them yo-yo diet, but the binges are often prolonged, lasting weeks, as the obese person sees binging as a failure and gives up on his diet. Intermittent 'starvation' aka intermittent fasting is very conductive to weight loss in most cases when prolonged and when the person has a healthier psychological relationship with food, plenty of anecdotal evidence verifying this. Note that I am not saying that it is necessarily a healthy way to lose weight, just that it works.

Obese people don't eat because their body needs energy, their hunger cues are driven by more primitive reward circuits, eating is simply a reward for them so they eat when they are tired, feel sad, in more general terms just to 'feel better', rather than out of true hunger. Obviously there's a metabolic component to obesity but I'd wager think overeating causes it rather than the opposite.

 

[Runenight201]

I use 2% milk, and I’m able to add the exact amount of sugar/maple syrup I need. Ice cream is much fattier then 2% milk, and too sweet as well. I will notice a conscious state change with the ice cream, but I will not feel it actually filling up my stomach very well. I suspect the lowered protein and lactose content compared to milk have something to do with it.

I’m glad you understood my point though, as that’s much more important than the example I used. I could have said sweetened milk and brownies as a starker health promoting contrast between sugar providing foods

 

[oldmanthunder]

I use 2% milk, and I’m able to add the exact amount of sugar/maple syrup I need. Ice cream is much fattier then 2% milk, and too sweet as well. I will notice a conscious state change with the ice cream, but I will not feel it actually filling up my stomach very well. I suspect the lowered protein and lactose content compared to milk have something to do with it.

I’m glad you understood my point though, as that’s much more important than the example I used. I could have said sweetened milk and brownies as a starker health promoting contrast between sugar providing foods

I won't debate that lower fat liquids work for you, but the higher fat/cholesterol in ice cream can be very health promoting in the right context, for one it's noticeably more anabolic if one needs a boost in that area.

btw, if you make your own ice-cream you can also adjust the components to your liking, lowering sugar/cream, increasing milk..for example some recipes use glucose syrup and powdered milk to improve texture.

 

[Runenight201]

I won't debate that lower fat liquids work for you, but the higher fat/cholesterol in ice cream can be very health promoting in the right context, for one it's noticeably more anabolic if one needs a boost in that area.

btw, if you make your own ice-cream you can also adjust the components to your liking, lowering sugar/cream, increasing milk..for example some recipes use glucose syrup and powdered milk to improve texture.

I like egg yolks. I like dairy. I like sugar. I just never found ice cream to be the most health promoting for me. 2% milk and syrup, egg yolks in my soup. This is what i found to be a very easy, convenient, and optimal combination of these metabolic promoting ingredients. I did play with the idea of making my own ice cream at one point, but thankfully I found more convenient substitutes. That would of been a pain to make all the time =P

 

[lampofred]

Your examples are pretty useless comparing they are completely based on the assumption that the obese people you know are not chronically overeating, which you have absolutely no way of knowing. Having read a few of your posts, I've observed that you have the nasty habit of forming predetermined opinions and looking for data to validate them, often skewing and twisting the data to make it fit.

My take on obesity is that it is mainly psychological. You are right that a lot of them yo-yo diet, but the binges are often prolonged, lasting weeks, as the obese person sees binging as a failure and gives up on his diet. Intermittent 'starvation' aka intermittent fasting is very conductive to weight loss in most cases when prolonged and when the person has a healthier psychological relationship with food, plenty of anecdotal evidence verifying this. Note that I am not saying that it is necessarily a healthy way to lose weight, just that it works.

Obese people don't eat because their body needs energy, their hunger cues are driven by more primitive reward circuits, eating is simply a reward for them so they eat when they are tired, feel sad, in more general terms just to 'feel better', rather than out of true hunger. Obviously there's a metabolic component to obesity but I'd wager think overeating causes it rather than the opposite.

How many obese people do you know? The fatter people I know eat less than the skinny ones. I disagree with Cirion and Kelj that undereating is what causes obesity (I think it's any chronic stress that can trigger it, not just chronic diet stress), but I think fatter people tend to have a better relationship with food than skinny people, who are often skinny because they are airy and detached from what their bodies need, or because they are burning fat instead of sugar, not because of great metabolic health.

 

[oldmanthunder]

How many obese people do you know? The fatter people I know eat less than the skinny ones. I disagree with Cirion and Kelj that undereating is what causes obesity (I think it's any chronic stress that can trigger it, not just chronic diet stress)

Are you following these people around all day and night, week after week? How could you possibly know their daily calorie intake from spending a single meal with them? Often they're very self-conscious and self-guilty so will have a small meal to 'save face' and signal that they're trying to lose weight but will often snack in private and eat larger meals when at home. Another possibility is that obese people often have warped circadian rhythms, so their feeding times vary from traditional ones.

but I think fatter people tend to have a better relationship with food than skinny people, who are often skinny because they are airy and detached from what their bodies need, or because they are burning fat instead of sugar, not because of great metabolic health.

There's a body type between skinny and fat... and I'm not saying that skinny people are necessarily healthy but the idea that they're somehow less healthy than obese people, metabolically or psychologically runs contrary to all common sense and all existing scientific evidence. Everyone is always burning fat and sugar, and there's nothing wrong with burning saturated fat for energy, in fact it works quite well. You don't need to be eating sugar all throughout the day unless you're doing high intensity physical activity or moderate intellectual activity. People who spend all day sitting down doing menial work aren't running on sugar.

 

[lampofred]

Are you following these people around all day and night, week after week? How could you possibly know their daily calorie intake from spending a single meal with them? Often they're very self-conscious and self-guilty so will have a small meal to 'save face' and signal that they're trying to lose weight but will often snack in private and eat larger meals when at home. Another possibility is that obese people often have warped circadian rhythms, so their feeding times vary from traditional ones.

I have a little brother who always ate less than me growing up but was obese whereas I was stick thin.

 

[oldmanthunder]

Are you following these people around all day and night, week after week? How could you possibly know their daily calorie intake from spending a single meal with them? Often they're very self-conscious and self-guilty so will have a small meal to 'save face' and signal that they're trying to lose weight but will often snack in private and eat larger meals when at home. Another possibility is that obese people often have warped circadian rhythms, so their feeding times vary from traditional ones.

what factors would you say were responsible for the discrepancy?

 

[lampofred]

what factors would you say were responsible for the discrepancy?

Chronic stress from constantly being compared to me. I used to be an arrogant POS and friends and family just made it worse portraying me as some golden child, and I think it really affected him. I'm trying to pay for it now though.

I think chronic stress related to things like social defeat, financial insecurity, and learned helplessness play a huge role in obesity.