Temps Rose - Now Body Aches And Blah Feeling For A Few Weeks

[oldmanthunder]

Chronic stress from constantly being compared to me. I used to be an arrogant POS and friends and family just made it worse portraying me as some golden child, and I think it really affected him. I'm trying to pay for it now though.

I think chronic stress related to things like social defeat, financial insecurity, and learned helplessness play a huge role in obesity.

I 100% agree with you that psychological stress (be it social, financial, etc.) is responsible for the majority of obesity. Mechanistically, chronic stress leads to adopting intuitive anti-stress behaviors, which long-term devolve into psychological dependency. This can be any activity which yields a strong reward like drug use, sex, food or play (video-games, internet). I believe many people are stressed/unhealthy without being fat because they simply use other forms of 'self medication' to alleviate the stress.

In general, if your metabolism is slow, you will have little appetite and thus will eat little and not gain weight. Only when your appetite is artificially increased by stress will you gain weight by over-eating. note: 'over' eating is simply eating above your expenditure, wether it be high or low due to varying metabolic efficiency.

 

[Kelj]

Im no expert on the psychological disposition of obese people, but through my encounters of many people who come into the gym asking me about weight loss, the most commoon message I hear is that they eat whatever they want and now they are looking for some dietary guidance and exercise regimen to lose it.

I believe it more has to do with the set of foods they are eating from. We have needs for salt, sugar, micronutrients, macronutrients, etc... the obese person seeks to meet these needs through consuming suboptimal foods, such as fried foods, chips, pastries, and desserts. We need to be eating according to our appetite, but a sweetened milk beverage with maple syrup or sugar is much more conducive to health than ice cream. The milk drink will satisfy the sweet tooth and give health and satiation, while the ice cream satisfies the sweet tooth but doesn’t lead to true satiation and good health.

Our food choices matter. If eating whatever you want leads towards eating the health promoting foods, as it did in my case, then it is a good strategy. I would often eat whatever looked appetizing for a meal, such as fried wings and French fries, only to immediately encounter nasal congestion, allergies, and low energy. I no longer consume French fries and fried wings because I know how it makes me feel, and I was able to update my appetite accordingly. If I look at fries and crave them, I usually recognize it as a need for salt and energy, and eat my lard soup, which brings me immense well-being and is very tasty.

We agree on the eat what you want part, but we have to update our food choices based on our immediate response to that food, and that’s where we disagree. Things certainly get complex, because depending on what has been priorly consumed, how much physical activity has been undertaken, and how taxed the stomach is all change what is necessary to eat any given time to maintain optimal health. It took me a solid couple months of experimenting to find a set of foods that consistently work for me, and I feel very confident in recommending them for everyone to consume, because I think they are health promoting.

Lard soup, huh? Sounds good.
I, too, speak with many people, all of whom tell me they eat too much. Upon further conversation, I find out they routinely skip meals, exercise before eating in the morning, eat large amounts of meat without carbs, and save their appetites for a special meal, just as cirion commented here. In no way is anyone I've talked to eating enough calories consistently. When they restrict carbs in any way, the restriction becomes exponentially worse. I agree with you that people should eat the most nutritious foods they can. Ray Peat says glucose is the most protective substance and cholesterol is the second most protective substance. These are important nutrients. I could hardly point out the difference between drinking sugar-sweetened milk and Hagen-daz icecream. Other ice creams are very light and full of air and surprisingly few calories. I drink milk only with orange juice in it, plus sugar and vanilla extract (Orange Julius). I find Hagen daz and orange julius satisfying and nutritious. Here is the problem. Not everyone cooks happily and easily. Not everyone can afford the 100% grass-fed beef or milk or Hagen-daz. The non-cooks are going to undereat if they think they have to make everything themselves. The financially challenged are going to undereat if they buy less food to afford the more expensive food. Calories are our most supreme concern. Not even nutritional supplements will do a blind bit of good if we don't get enough calories. This is what I experienced:

Starting from orthorexia, the over concern with "clean eating". I ate organic, pasture-raised, purest ingredients possible. Intermittent fasting for some months. Not obese, not skinny. Feeling like my health was degenerating, thyroid sluggish, skin problems like rosacea and eczema, hair thinning, losing vitality, joints degenerating.
Found Ray Peat + realized I had disordered eating. Accidentally consuming too few calories through food elimination and fasting.
Started eating what I wanted, in the amount I wanted, when I wanted.
Went through eating phases.
At first energy dense desserts, burgers from Burger King, bread.
Then, Coke, Pepsi ...very therapeutic...then tonic water for the quinine, presumably, then club soda for the bicarbonate of soda, presumably.
Coffee most of the time, but sometimes go weeks without desiring it.
Then, suddenly want so much fruit, canned in winter, fresh when ripe.
Icecream sometimes and then, for weeks, the carton is untouched.
Meat at times, but much less than before.
Cheese sometimes.
Suddenly, raw vegetables with oil and vinegar with everything savory.
Orange juice pretty constant and lots of lemonade.
The trend definitely heads toward fresh food as I become restored in health and weight.

My point is, this is not random but CNS directed for restoration. I would hate for anyone to think their financial situation, or lack of ability to cook meant they can't restore health and normal weight. They can.

 

[Kelj]

Your examples are pretty useless comparing they are completely based on the assumption that the obese people you know are not chronically overeating, which you have absolutely no way of knowing. Having read a few of your posts, I've observed that you have the nasty habit of forming predetermined opinions and looking for data to validate them, often skewing and twisting the data to make it fit.

My take on obesity is that it is mainly psychological. You are right that a lot of them yo-yo diet, but the binges are often prolonged, lasting weeks, as the obese person sees binging as a failure and gives up on his diet. Intermittent 'starvation' aka intermittent fasting is very conductive to weight loss in most cases when prolonged and when the person has a healthier psychological relationship with food, plenty of anecdotal evidence verifying this. Note that I am not saying that it is necessarily a healthy way to lose weight, just that it works.

Obese people don't eat because their body needs energy, their hunger cues are driven by more primitive reward circuits, eating is simply a reward for them so they eat when they are tired, feel sad, in more general terms just to 'feel better', rather than out of true hunger. Obviously there's a metabolic component to obesity but I'd wager think overeating causes it rather than the opposite.[/QUOTE
Calorie restriction is starvation. If someone starves every day they will become skinny, but will not be well. There are many bmi normal people who have so-called metabolic syndrome. Many obese people do not have metabolic syndrome. Obese people are at least sometimes nourishing themselves. To characterize obese people as addicted people who lack self-control is harsh and perpetuates the lie that has put them where they are. They have lost hundreds of pounds over the years through some kind of calorie restriction. In this they showed great self-control. But, biology is a powerful driver. The body drives us to stay alive. Paradoxically, it may be lack of self- control that protects those who stay slim. They can't deny themselves food for even a day. Consistent, at least, adequate calorie consumption keeps them slim.

 

[Runenight201]

Lard soup, huh? Sounds good.
I, too, speak with many people, all of whom tell me they eat too much. Upon further conversation, I find out they routinely skip meals, exercise before eating in the morning, eat large amounts of meat without carbs, and save their appetites for a special meal, just as cirion commented here. In no way is anyone I've talked to eating enough calories consistently. When they restrict carbs in any way, the restriction becomes exponentially worse. I agree with you that people should eat the most nutritious foods they can. Ray Peat says glucose is the most protective substance and cholesterol is the second most protective substance. These are important nutrients. I could hardly point out the difference between drinking sugar-sweetened milk and Hagen-daz icecream. Other ice creams are very light and full of air and surprisingly few calories. I drink milk only with orange juice in it, plus sugar and vanilla extract (Orange Julius). I find Hagen daz and orange julius satisfying and nutritious. Here is the problem. Not everyone cooks happily and easily. Not everyone can afford the 100% grass-fed beef or milk or Hagen-daz. The non-cooks are going to undereat if they think they have to make everything themselves. The financially challenged are going to undereat if they buy less food to afford the more expensive food. Calories are our most supreme concern. Not even nutritional supplements will do a blind bit of good if we don't get enough calories. This is what I experienced:

Starting from orthorexia, the over concern with "clean eating". I ate organic, pasture-raised, purest ingredients possible. Intermittent fasting for some months. Not obese, not skinny. Feeling like my health was degenerating, thyroid sluggish, skin problems like rosacea and eczema, hair thinning, losing vitality, joints degenerating.
Found Ray Peat + realized I had disordered eating. Accidentally consuming too few calories through food elimination and fasting.
Started eating what I wanted, in the amount I wanted, when I wanted.
Went through eating phases.
At first energy dense desserts, burgers from Burger King, bread.
Then, Coke, Pepsi ...very therapeutic...then tonic water for the quinine, presumably, then club soda for the bicarbonate of soda, presumably.
Coffee most of the time, but sometimes go weeks without desiring it.
Then, suddenly want so much fruit, canned in winter, fresh when ripe.
Icecream sometimes and then, for weeks, the carton is untouched.
Meat at times, but much less than before.
Cheese sometimes.
Suddenly, raw vegetables with oil and vinegar with everything savory.
Orange juice pretty constant and lots of lemonade.
The trend definitely heads toward fresh food as I become restored in health and weight.

My point is, this is not random but CNS directed for restoration. I would hate for anyone to think their financial situation, or lack of ability to cook meant they can't restore health and normal weight. They can.

I mean we pretty much agree on the intuitive eating, but even your approach isn’t a calorie oriented approach but a food craving/appetite oriented one. A 4000 calorie rice diet won’t heal anyone despite the body getting an abundance of energy. That’s certainly a better scenario than starving, but it wouldn’t put you in prime health. If you ate bowls of rice when your body craved meat or fruit, something negative would happen, like fatigue, or tooth sensitivity, or joint pain, or inflammation. I guess at this point I’m getting a little pedantic, or Im poorly interpreting your message, or I’m just trying to get the last word in because dammit doesn’t the ego in me want to be right.... Anyways, all this talk about Ice cream is actually getting me to give it a second shot, so I’m going to go buy some hagan-Daaz =P

Cheers :)

 

[Cirion]

I speak from experience when its pretty hard to force down 4000 calories of anything you aren't craving at any given time. The rice in particular, I actually tried something to that degree at one point lol, you'll find when your body truly doesn't want something, it's going to let you know... the idea of rice became utterly repulsive to me when I started playing with 2000+ calories of rice a day, very quickly, it only took maybe 2 days of doing so lol.

Some people like myself are not in tune with the idea of what our body needs necessarily, but it's virtually impossible to not avoid the foods that the body does NOT want, I've come to realize. The signals to AVOID food get VERY strong when they aren't helping our bodies and 95-99% impossible to avoid (I am avoiding saying 100%, because some people will eat through even extreme discomfort sometimes... Lol)

 

[ecstatichamster]

Taking 2000mg of thiamine each day still. Maybe some improvement...temperatures are “normal”

Heart rate is pretty high these days. Around 95 or so. I think this is probably why I have body aches. Perhaps it takes some time for adjustment to be made to a higher metabolism.

I didn’t read any of this in my research of Broda Barnes but it stands to reason.

Perhaps I should reduce my NDT.

 

[rockarolla]

not sure what it is.

I’ve been taking 2g or 3g of aspirin which helps.

And a bit of antibiotics help.

My temps have risen...could this be a digestive die-off reaction?

Feels like endotoxins to me.

How it is now - did you eventually adapt? I think you are right and this is endotoxin based reaction to bacterial die-off. With the increase of temperature body levels of interferon gamma got increased and this cytokine enables emission of anti bacterial peptides through VDRs.

(aspirin helps since it downregulates TLR4 pathway and all abxs are TLR4 antagonists).

Vitamin D Is Required for IFN-γ–Mediated Antimicrobial Activity of Human Macrophages
Vitamin D Is Required for IFN-γ–Mediated Antimicrobial Activity of Human Macrophages

 

[ecstatichamster]

Yes o adjusted nicely.

 

[:M :B.]

@ecstatichamster what antibiotics were you taking? I have had similar experiences dabbling in antibiotics. I have never regret it.

I have felt aches in my spine and neck, increased bowel movements, extreme tiredness, increased temps and even itchy bumps on my legs that seem like bug bites but I don't think they are, suspect it's coming from within. 2 different times I took antibiotics the whites of my left eye went completely red, very weird, i tried googling it and couldn't find any info about that since the internet is a trash can.

I still mess around with antibiotics from time to time. I have had some ticks in me and one big one behind my ear and the skin has never been the same since then. I may try low dose for months and see if I just need a deep kill. I keep coming back to having a desire to take antibiotics like something really needs to die and I'm not fully where I wanna be yet.

It's been years since your first post in this thread. Got any takeaways from the antibiotic experience?