Teens with lots of low thyroid signs, low temp, high pulse & salt shoots it up to the 90s. any ideas?

[Elie]

I thought that low thyroid signs + low temp with a high pulse is a sign of high adrenaline, and salt could help bring adrenaline, and therefore the pulse, down.
Yet, salt intake sends her pulse further up.
any insight?

 

[74one]

You talk about salt as if it is a pill, salt has it role when everything else is in place. In his interview RP mentioned that some low thyroid people may react to salt with high pressure and pulse if they deficient in calcium . He recommended supplement calcium carbonate 2000 mg/day and magnesium from cooked green leaves. Many things can trigger adrenaline, I would tried something like orange juice, and after that in 5-10 min some baking soda

 

[yerrag]

Already hypothyroid, how can calcium intake be helpful if that makes the calcium go inside the cell and stay there?

High adrenaline can increase heart rate for sure, but another cause is a poor ionic gradient of calcium in and outside the cell. This gradient is important to effect optimal contraction of muscles, and the heart is a lot of muscle contracting and relaxing. If the calcium gradient isn't optimal, then more heartbeats are needed to do the work. It doesn't help being hypothyroid because there is not enough CO2 being made by the mitochondria, and the carbonic acid produced from CO2, which is needed to carry out calcium from the cell, isn't enough to keep keep calcium at an optimal ratio of 12000:1 (not sure, maybe 15000:1, doesn't matter at this level of discussion) between extracellular and intracellular space.

Furthermore, if there isn't enough potassium at the cell membrane, which regulates calcium influx into the cell, more calcium will get into the cell.

In this state of electrolyte imbalance and misdistribution, due to poor sugar metabolism and which contributes to a state of poor acid-base balance, exacerbated by the imbalance due to the lack and/or excess of electrolytes magnesium, potassium, calcium, sodium, and chloride - the body becomes very sensitive to the intake of electrolytes such as salt. The sodium could go into the cells as well, but I'm just taking a stab on this one.

It's a systemic issue, and knowing how to correct the imbalance is key to it. Many people don't even know how to determine their state of acid-base balance, and just fling themselves headlong into taking this and taking that -takethistakethatitis is a real problem.

 

[74one]

Already hypothyroid, how can calcium intake be helpful if that makes the calcium go inside the cell and stay there?

High adrenaline can increase heart rate for sure, but another cause is a poor ionic gradient of calcium in and outside the cell. This gradient is important to effect optimal contraction of muscles, and the heart is a lot of muscle contracting and relaxing. If the calcium gradient isn't optimal, then more heartbeats are needed to do the work. It doesn't help being hypothyroid because there is not enough CO2 being made by the mitochondria, and the carbonic acid produced from CO2, which is needed to carry out calcium from the cell, isn't enough to keep keep calcium at an optimal ratio of 12000:1 (not sure, maybe 15000:1, doesn't matter at this level of discussion) between extracellular and intracellular space.

Furthermore, if there isn't enough potassium at the cell membrane, which regulates calcium influx into the cell, more calcium will get into the cell.

In this state of electrolyte imbalance and misdistribution, due to poor sugar metabolism and which contributes to a state of poor acid-base balance, exacerbated by the imbalance due to the lack and/or excess of electrolytes magnesium, potassium, calcium, sodium, and chloride - the body becomes very sensitive to the intake of electrolytes such as salt. The sodium could go into the cells as well, but I'm just taking a stab on this one.

It's a systemic issue, and knowing how to correct the imbalance is key to it. Many people don't even know how to determine their state of acid-base balance, and just fling themselves headlong into taking this and taking that -takethistakethatitis is a real problem.

The main idea behind supplementing calcium is to come down parathyroid glands, this will stop systemic inflammation and lower stress. Do not forget that calcium should be accompanied by vitamin D and K1,K2 for proper metabolism.

 

[yerrag]

The main idea behind supplementing calcium is to come down parathyroid glands, this will stop systemic inflammation and lower stress. Do not forget that calcium should be accompanied by vitamin D and K1,K2 for proper metabolism.

There are assumptions buried on your approach. One key assumption is that the person is not hypothyroid.

It's like telling someone living by the sea is good because of the negative ions that remove serotonin. The assumption is that there is no tsunami going on at that time.

 

[74one]

There are assumptions buried on your approach. One key assumption is that the person is not hypothyroid.

It's like telling someone living by the sea is good because of the negative ions that remove serotonin. The assumption is that there is no tsunami going on at that time.

That is not my assumptions, that from RP interview where he responded to exactly the same question

 

[yerrag]

That is not my assumptions, that from RP interview where he responded to exactly the same question

Then follow what Ray Peat tells you. As he certainly did tell me to know my context. And Ray Peat would say things that are true, but you have to think also that his advice is a general advice. He doesn't end each advice with "but... but... but..." You fill those in, having some idea brought in from accumulated knowledge gained in the past from him.

If he tells you again to live by the sea, does he have to tell you "but not when there Is a tsunami going on?"

 

[Elie]

I suggested a bit of salt as a test initially, anticipating her heart rate to go down. I guess stopping at that with out considering the other key minerals wasn't that wise.
Perhaps adding some baking soda along with ensuring adequate intake of calcium, magnesium (which I believe she is supplementing with already) and potassium are warranted at this point.

Thank you both for weight in on this. @74one and @yerrag for weighing in on this.

 

[yerrag]

Would be nice if we could make a pill that acts like a computer script in the way that it will cause the person to think and then trigger the inflow of correct biological and chemical ideas and principles, while discarding false ideas, and then with the help of using a decision tree based on simple boolean logic, determine the most likely cause and then offer a few steps to fix the root cause. And then follow these steps, and monitor progress, and then if progress is not coming, shift the approach to what is the next most likely solution. And so on and so forth.

This keeps us from the never-ending frustration with coaching people who almost always want to take a magic pill than have to listen to you teaching them, which keeps them away from their video games or their favorite soap operas, or their mind wandering off to neverland.

They rather keep taking a drug or a vaccine, and pray for divine providence. It is when you shake the dust off your sandals and say anathema.

Takes a lot of patience and humility. People who tell you you're too detailed. That they have no time for this. And they end up in the ER and the ICU. And then ask me why I don't visit the killing field of modern civilization aka hospital?

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Already hypothyroid, how can calcium intake be helpful if that makes the calcium go inside the cell and stay there?

High adrenaline can increase heart rate for sure, but another cause is a poor ionic gradient of calcium in and outside the cell. This gradient is important to effect optimal contraction of muscles, and the heart is a lot of muscle contracting and relaxing. If the calcium gradient isn't optimal, then more heartbeats are needed to do the work. It doesn't help being hypothyroid because there is not enough CO2 being made by the mitochondria, and the carbonic acid produced from CO2, which is needed to carry out calcium from the cell, isn't enough to keep keep calcium at an optimal ratio of 12000:1 (not sure, maybe 15000:1, doesn't matter at this level of discussion) between extracellular and intracellular space.

Furthermore, if there isn't enough potassium at the cell membrane, which regulates calcium influx into the cell, more calcium will get into the cell.

In this state of electrolyte imbalance and misdistribution, due to poor sugar metabolism and which contributes to a state of poor acid-base balance, exacerbated by the imbalance due to the lack and/or excess of electrolytes magnesium, potassium, calcium, sodium, and chloride - the body becomes very sensitive to the intake of electrolytes such as salt. The sodium could go into the cells as well, but I'm just taking a stab on this one.

It's a systemic issue, and knowing how to correct the imbalance is key to it. Many people don't even know how to determine their state of acid-base balance, and just fling themselves headlong into taking this and taking that -takethistakethatitis is a real problem.

I can add my experience taking Ray-recommended doses of Ca (2000mg/day) while probably hypothyroid. Blood pressure was high and temps weren't where I wanted, but my Vitamin D levels were good. I wasn't sure about T3 levels since testing is difficult so I brashly theorized the problem must be lack of Ca. So I began building up my intake using CaCO3. This I did over the course of a couple weeks, and for the last couple days attained the desired daily dose.

Then the reaction: Anxiety, brain fog, depression, pressure in the head that could only be relieved by frequent genuine tears, muscle tension in the jaw - teeth clenching, sporadic heart palpitations, intermittent brief heart pangs, cold sweats and a general feeling of illness and malaise. I quit the Ca immediately; symptoms subsided over the next several days. A week or so later, not completey certain the symptoms were due to Ca, I decided to do an experiment. Took maybe 900 mg at one time in the evening. Felt stimulated, even felt the high libido of youth next morning but, as the day progressed, all the symptoms I've heretofore described returned even worse than before. So I stopped again, and again it took about three days time for me to feel normal.

Not sure how these particular symptoms are caused by Ca going inside the cell and staying there, but that seems a reasonable hypothesis.

I did a bit of looking around online. Several sources said that 2500mg/day could be toxic, and I had not even considered the possibility of toxicity. Since that amount is not much more than Ray's recommended dose, it would seem he assumes your thyroid is in good shape before starting high-dose Ca.

 

[equipoise]

Then follow what Ray Peat tells you. As he certainly did tell me to know my context. And Ray Peat would say things that are true, but you have to think also that his advice is a general advice. He doesn't end each advice with "but... but... but..." You fill those in, having some idea brought in from accumulated knowledge gained in the past from him.

If he tells you again to live by the sea, does he have to tell you "but not when there Is a tsunami going on?"

This is a good one. Peat's answers leave a lot of space and I guess with everyone lacking self confidence these days, you really gotta spoon feed the information for them.
Ray ONLY makes sense if you read thoroughly through his articles, and you connect the dots for yourself, and trust your gut, experiment. Most people won't do this thus willl go on the forum and wonder, feeding the negative loop. Nothing Peat says is black and white. Point being, learn to trust your instincts, slowly, day by day.

 

[yerrag]

I can add my experience taking Ray-recommended doses of Ca (2000mg/day) while probably hypothyroid. Blood pressure was high and temps weren't where I wanted, but my Vitamin D levels were good. I wasn't sure about T3 levels since testing is difficult so I brashly theorized the problem must be lack of Ca. So I began building up my intake using CaCO3. This I did over the course of a couple weeks, and for the last couple days attained the desired daily dose.

Then the reaction: Anxiety, brain fog, depression, pressure in the head that could only be relieved by frequent genuine tears, muscle tension in the jaw - teeth clenching, sporadic heart palpitations, intermittent brief heart pangs, cold sweats and a general feeling of illness and malaise. I quit the Ca immediately; symptoms subsided over the next several days. A week or so later, not completey certain the symptoms were due to Ca, I decided to do an experiment. Took maybe 900 mg at one time in the evening. Felt stimulated, even felt the high libido of youth next morning but, as the day progressed, all the symptoms I've heretofore described returned even worse than before. So I stopped again, and again it took about three days time for me to feel normal.

Not sure how these particular symptoms are caused by Ca going inside the cell and staying there, but that seems a reasonable hypothesis.

I did a bit of looking around online. Several sources said that 2500mg/day could be toxic, and I had not even considered the possibility of toxicity. Since that amount is not much more than Ray's recommended dose, it would seem he assumes your thyroid is in good shape before starting high-dose Ca.

I used to wonder why some doctors don't recommend calcium intake, people like Dr. Levy and that lady doctor Carolyn Dean who has her own micronized or ionic or whatever magnesium chloride as a mag supplement. Then I realized they rather not talk about hypothyroidism, as a lot of people are, and so by doing that they would recommend little calcium supplementation. They leave patients not only hypothyroid, but also cause them to develop osteoporosis later in life.

It's another thing to tell people they are hypothyroid. Even though it's very easy to test for hypothyroid, and costs very little, people just prefer the "modern" method of using blood tests involving the many T"s - TSH, T3, T4 - and prefer a guy in a lab coat to tell them they're not hypothyroid, even when they are. People prefer the complicated thing because what they don't understand they revere, and they believe the experts who tell them they're euthyroid, and saying I'm hypothyroid is just a matter of the sick mind- as the science in the "tests" say so. The less complicated thing would be to rely on the Achilles Tendon Reflex, which a 5 year old can be trained to do. And the next less complicated thing would be to use the QTc value in an ECG, which can be obtained in some handy home ECG devices which don't cost more than the blood tests, and which can be reused to monitor one's progress in the healing from hypothyroid to euthyroid.

So, it serves people right that they develop osteoporosis later in life. They act like they have a death wish on themselves. In this way, dogs and cats are smarter than they are.

 

[yerrag]

Peat's answers leave a lot of space and I guess with everyone lacking self confidence these days, you really gotta spoon feed the information for them.

Myself included. But slowly, I got out of it. I would question many things, but I left health and medical matters to the experts, and would not question them. It was only after my frustration built up - going from doctor to doctor - and all they can give me is a very nice smile and boy, they're good at exchanging pleasantries - but tell me the same thing "I don't know why, but here take this." The takethistakethatism is a cult of modern medicine, and it has infected everyone, and it's hard not to be a disciple of it.

A lot of people are taken by the cheery demeanor of their doctors, and they mistake it for knowledge. I chided my sister once as she was very impressed by these doctors. I asked what impressed her, and she told me they were very cordial and respectful, and they were very good at teleconferencing each other to discuss her son's condition. Nothing she said was about their grasp of knowledge, and I detect the same cookie cutter answers involving genetics and the seemingly humble answers of "science and research is working on it, and pretty soon we will know more, but until then, take this."

 

[Elie]

I can add my experience taking Ray-recommended doses of Ca (2000mg/day) while probably hypothyroid. Blood pressure was high and temps weren't where I wanted, but my Vitamin D levels were good. I wasn't sure about T3 levels since testing is difficult so I brashly theorized the problem must be lack of Ca. So I began building up my intake using CaCO3. This I did over the course of a couple weeks, and for the last couple days attained the desired daily dose.

Then the reaction: Anxiety, brain fog, depression, pressure in the head that could only be relieved by frequent genuine tears, muscle tension in the jaw - teeth clenching, sporadic heart palpitations, intermittent brief heart pangs, cold sweats and a general feeling of illness and malaise. I quit the Ca immediately; symptoms subsided over the next several days. A week or so later, not completey certain the symptoms were due to Ca, I decided to do an experiment. Took maybe 900 mg at one time in the evening. Felt stimulated, even felt the high libido of youth next morning but, as the day progressed, all the symptoms I've heretofore described returned even worse than before. So I stopped again, and again it took about three days time for me to feel normal.

Not sure how these particular symptoms are caused by Ca going inside the cell and staying there, but that seems a reasonable hypothesis.

I did a bit of looking around online. Several sources said that 2500mg/day could be toxic, and I had not even considered the possibility of toxicity. Since that amount is not much more than Ray's recommended dose, it would seem he assumes your thyroid is in good shape before starting high-dose Ca.

Thank you for sharing your experience.

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Thank you for sharing your experience.t

Glad to be of any assistance.

As Yerrag has mentioned, people should be cognizant it is not always a good thing to think, "Dr. Peat said so and so therefore it must be good for me." Magic bullet is not what he does and, as most folk are trained to think in magic bullet terms, that is an easy mistake to make.

BTW, I since learned my QTc was long - best indicator of low thyroid, so mega-Ca dosing was very bad, perhaps even dangerous, for me to try.

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Glad to be of any assistance.

As Yerrag has mentioned, people should be cognizant it is not always a good thing to think, "Dr. Peat said so and so therefore it must be good for me." Magic bullet is not what he does and, as most folk are trained to think in magic bullet terms, that is an easy mistake to make.

BTW, I since learned my QTc was long - best indicator of low thyroid, so mega-Ca dosing was very bad, perhaps even dangerous, for me to try.

A handheld device to measure QTc is available for a relatively cheap price. Unfortunately (for me), it requires a "smart" phone to use and i refuse to own one of the damnable things, as they are perhaps the most tangible marker of when the world tipped over the edge into digital hell.

KardiaMobile EKG l Wireless EKG

Hold your heart in your hands: Kardia captures a medical-grade EKG in 30 seconds anywhere, anytime. Captures Heart Rate, Rhythm & Symptoms for Early Detection of AFib | For Smartphones & Tablets | FDA Cleared.

www.concordhealthsupply.com

 

[yerrag]

BTW, I since learned my QTc was long - best indicator of low thyroid, so mega-Ca dosing was very bad, perhaps even dangerous, for me to try.

Nice. What's your QTc value? Did you go to a lab to have it taken or did you use a device you can use at home?

 

[yerrag]

A handheld device to measure QTc is available for a relatively cheap price. Unfortunately (for me), it requires a "smart" phone to use and i refuse to own one of the damnable things, as they are perhaps the most tangible marker of when the world tipped over the edge into digital hell.

KardiaMobile EKG l Wireless EKG

Hold your heart in your hands: Kardia captures a medical-grade EKG in 30 seconds anywhere, anytime. Captures Heart Rate, Rhythm & Symptoms for Early Detection of AFib | For Smartphones & Tablets | FDA Cleared.

www.concordhealthsupply.com

Were you able to get a device gives you a reading without needing to hook up to a smartphone? The AliveKor product seemed to require the user to subscribe to a service to get you in touch with a "doctor" to interpret the results for you. There are devices that don't tie you to a plan though. I just don't know how accurate such devices are and if I had one, I would still need to compare it to a result taken from a lab.

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Were you able to get a device gives you a reading without needing to hook up to a smartphone? The AliveKor product seemed to require the user to subscribe to a service to get you in touch with a "doctor" to interpret the results for you. There are devices that don't tie you to a plan though. I just don't know how accurate such devices are and if I had one, I would still need to compare it to a result taken from a lab.

Evidently, the KardiaMobile can also hook up to a tablet. Older ipads which are compatible with the device are available on ebay for around $50 US. I might buy a tablet just so I can used the Kardiamobile app. This device does not require a subscription. If you want your personal sawbones to see results. you save them to memory. Don't know how accurate they are, of course, but I have had an ECG so there is at least one baseline to compare.

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Nice. What's your QTc value? Did you go to a lab to have it taken or did you use a device you can use at home?

I once had a HBP incident that was off the scale on my home monitor so went to the emergency room. They did an ECT. Pulse 140, QT = 372, QTc = 497. Diagnosis: Sinus Tachycardia. Let me go two hours later after BP came down naturally. Nothing was said to me then by the ER doc, or my regular doc later, about what seems to me to be an unusually long QTc. So far as I know I don't have one of those long-QTc inherited genetic diseases (probably be dead by now if i did), and it ain't meds since i'm not on any - except I had taken a dose of Bupleurum earlier that day, to which I credit the tachycardia.

Since that time I learned the long interval could be the result of hypothyroidism. Yet a QTc of 497 seems very long even for that, acc'd to what few articles I've been able to locate. My Achilles reflex is not floppy-foot but neither is it molasses, somewhere in between. I seem to be very sensitive to Cynomel or Cynoplus, small shavings - a few mcg - can get me all a-jitter, edgy, speedy. Maybe micro-dosing is the wrong approach?

Considering getting the Karidamobile device, so I will be able to gauge more finely than with the Achilles test what effect thyroid supplementation has on me.