Taurine More Effective Than Finasteride For Hair Loss

[Dotdash]

Whenever I use Taurine, K2, Zinc, Niacinamide, I see a sharp decrease in hair loss. I also add spironolactone some days. (Not as anti-androgen, it decreases fibrosis and calcification)

Vitamin C, E, D3, Magnesium, NAC, ALA, Curcumin... All are helpful for sure. But honestly they don't cut shedding like Taurine or Zinc or K2.

Are you referring to using Taurine, K2, Zinc, Niacinamide in conjunction with one another or individually? And, you may have previously shared this, but what quantities do you aim for in each. I have experimented with all except Taurine. Thanks.

 

[LCohen]

Are you referring to using Taurine, K2, Zinc, Niacinamide in conjunction with one another or individually? And, you may have previously shared this, but what quantities do you aim for in each. I have experimented with all except Taurine. Thanks.

I'm using all together. K2 for reversing, suppressing calcification of scalp.

Taurine is a great anti-fibrotic, for suppressing fibrosis, excess collagen of scalp.

Zinc is generally good for hair. It suppresses prolactin and sebum. Because I have oily hair zinc is a must for me.

Niacinamide don't need an introduction. It has lot of anti-inflammatory, anti-cancer, heart supporting effects. Topical niacinamide and zinc also suppresses sebum-oily hair.

 

[haidut]

Could this be related to taurine's ability to antagonise TGF-b which is what Danny Roddy asserts is the reason for finasterides effectiveness?

Probably, as well its ability to stimulate metabolism via bile acid increase.

 

[haidut]

DHT causes fibrosis

Via what mechanism?

 

[LCohen]

DHT causes fibrosis, but only as a result of trying to attend to errant inflammation.
This errant inflammation is caused by high estrogen or high cortisol.

Removing DHT will stop the body’s ability to form collagen, thus stops perricular fibrosis from occurring.

That is why finasteride stops hairloss, however it’s not effective at reversing hairloss.
I don’t know if this is because it cannot reverse fibrosis or it doesn’t reverse soft tissue calcification which is also a potential gateway to mpb

Via what mechanism?

Down-regulation of transforming growth factor beta receptors by androgen in ovarian cancer cells. - PubMed - NCBI

Umm, looks like androgens actually decreases fibrosis via down-regulating TGF Betas

 

[haidut]

Down-regulation of transforming growth factor beta receptors by androgen in ovarian cancer cells. - PubMed - NCBI

Umm, looks like androgens actually decreases fibrosis via down-regulating TGF Betas

Thanks. That was my understanding as well. Also, usually fibrosis requires inflammation and "growth" factors like estrogen/GH. Androgens are known to suppress both of these factors.

 

[Arrade]

Via what mechanism?

DHT is a wound healing hormone and is the mechanism by which scar tissue (collagen bundles) occur, from my understanding.
Serum DHT is different and would serve to lower inflmmation and thus improper scar tissue - fibrosis.

So in a state of chronic inflammation the body uses DHT to "heal the wounds" at sites of inflammation but end up just causing excess collagen. In a healthy organism this function is mainly to heal actual wounds.

"Furthermore, male mice with an X-linked mutation in the androgen receptorgene (formerly called testicular feminization and abbreviated as ArTfm) showed decreased levels of collagen, indicating that the androgen receptor pathway contributes to the observed differences."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15320789

This is still a working theory tho

 

[haidut]

DHT is a wound healing hormone and is the mechanism by which scar tissue (collagen bundles) occur, from my understanding.
Serum DHT is different and would serve to lower inflmmation and thus improper scar tissue - fibrosis.

So in a state of chronic inflammation the body uses DHT to "heal the wounds" at sites of inflammation but end up just causing excess collagen. In a healthy organism this function is mainly to heal actual wounds.

"Furthermore, male mice with an X-linked mutation in the androgen receptorgene (formerly called testicular feminization and abbreviated as ArTfm) showed decreased levels of collagen, indicating that the androgen receptor pathway contributes to the observed differences."
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022202X15320789

This is still a working theory tho

I think all of these effects are dose dependent. Serum DHT levels decline with aging and older/balder males look far from the high-androgen phenotype. Here is a study that shows "low" dose DHT administration reversed fibrosis and collagen accumulation, but in very high doses exacerbated it.
Dose-dependent effects of dihydrotestosterone in the streptozotocin-induced diabetic rat kidney. - PubMed - NCBI

The reason I put "low" in quotes is that the dose that was protective corresponds to 0.45mg/kg daily dose for a human, which is a HUGE amount. The higher dose that increased fibrosis was equivalent to 1.2mg/kg daily for a human, which is just absurd. I highly doubt the scalps of balding males have concentrations equivalent to the ones produced by a daily dose of 1.2mg/kg DHT. In fact, the studies that did biopsies from the scalp did not find anywhere close to that amount of DHT locally, and in some cases it was lower than non-bald controls.
Overall, so far I have not seen any evidence that DHT is actually the bad guy rather than just an innocent bystander trying to help. Again, if androgens were the bad guys in baldness then androgen receptor antagonists should be the perfect drug for stopping/reversing hair loss, yet not a single human trials with those drugs (e.g. flutamide) found any benefits for hair.

 

[tallglass13]

@haidut, I agree and trust what you say. However, how does Dutasteride provide such significant hair growth much more that finasteride. I recently took a pill of duta recently because an MD that I work with runs a "hormone clinic", and convinced me that he had no sides from test replacement and Avodart every other day. I will never take that again from what I experienced that night.

 

[tallglass13]

but there are a lot more before and after photos of dutasteride providing almost full hair recover.

 

[Arrade]

@haidut, I agree and trust what you say. However, how does Dutasteride provide such significant hair growth much more that finasteride. I recently took a pill of duta recently because an MD that I work with runs a "hormone clinic", and convinced me that he had no sides from test replacement and Avodart every other day. I will never take that again from what I experienced that night.

Crazy Ashton Kutcher took it without sides for years. They seem very user dependent
@haidut interesting about DHT not being higher in scalps. Have you looked at Breezula? I think there are anti androgens that are being used topically and orally that seem to halt hairloss
I was under the impression it was like prostate cancer, that estrogen and DHT were both players but really high estrogen in the serum activated DHT in the tissues to be a problem. Doesn’t work with the scalp levels u mentioned tho

 

[Wagner83]

Could powerfully lowering metabolism mean much less nutrition is needed to keep a full head of hair?

 

[tallglass13]

If you look at the duta studies. they state that DHT in scalp tissue fell 60%, while the testosterone in the scalp rose 35% increase. Seems like testosterone makes hair grow, and even Ray has said that himself.

 

[Arrade]

If you look at the duta studies. they state that DHT in scalp tissue fell 60%, while the testosterone in the scalp rose 35% increase. Seems like testosterone makes hair grow, and even Ray has said that himself.

https://perfecthairhealth.com/the-ultimate-hair-loss-flowchart-why-we-lose-our-hair/
Here is a good article by Rob.
It seems that dht may induce calcium into the tissue:
Here’s what we know: if we inject regular mice with DHT, they develop calcification. But if we inject DHT into mice who can’t produce androgen receptors, no calcification occurs. Why?

Let’s start by looking at the “engineered” mice who can’t express androgen receptors. When they receive DHT, their bodies respond by…

1. Activating proteins associated with calcification inhibition
2. Deactivating proteins associated with calcification induction

Me personally I thought DHT was responsible for perricular fibrosis because it a hormone that is responsible for wound healing/scar tissue build up, which may also be the case.

Also, another key quote from him:
"Yes, DHT (a hormone made from testosterone) is linked to hair loss… But only one kind of DHT: scalp tissue DHT. Paradoxically, serum (blood) DHT might protect us against hair loss, and body tissue DHT actually encourages body hair growth." I 100% agree with Rob here.

 

[tallglass13]

oh dang, I haven't seen that article before. Makes a whole heck of a lot of sense .

 

[haidut]

but there are a lot more before and after photos of dutasteride providing almost full hair recover.

Both finasteride and dutasteride are steroidal 5-AR inhibitors. So, they likely act on multiple steroid receptors and have many other effects aside from their inhinition of 5-AR, and because if that we can't say what is the reason for the benefit. If you find me a study with non-steroidal 5-AR inhibitors increasing hair growth then it will hold more weight.

 

[haidut]

Crazy Ashton Kutcher took it without sides for years. They seem very user dependent
@haidut interesting about DHT not being higher in scalps. Have you looked at Breezula? I think there are anti androgens that are being used topically and orally that seem to halt hairloss
I was under the impression it was like prostate cancer, that estrogen and DHT were both players but really high estrogen in the serum activated DHT in the tissues to be a problem. Doesn’t work with the scalp levels u mentioned tho

Have you seen the study on men with metastatic prostate cancer disappearing after they got injections of T directly into the prostate? The prostate is probably the organ most sensitive to DHT and with the largest capacity to synthesize it. When you inject T into it the vast majority of that will convert to DHT. This was the whole rationale behind castration therapy - i.e. stop the testicles from producing T so that it does not go to the prostate and get converted into DHT. Yet, providing T directly to the prostate stopped even terminal cancer. If this does not convince you that DHT (and androgens in general) is not the bad guy then I don't know what would.
Cancer "paradox": Testosterone Treats Prostate Cancer
DHT Prevents Prostate Cancer And May Even Treat It

 

[Arrade]

Have you seen the study on men with metastatic prostate cancer disappearing after they got injections of T directly into the prostate? The prostate is probably the organ most sensitive to DHT and with the largest capacity to synthesize it. When you inject T into it the vast majority of that will convert to DHT. This was the whole rationale behind castration therapy - i.e. stop the testicles from producing T so that it does not go to the prostate and get converted into DHT. Yet, providing T directly to the prostate stopped even terminal cancer. If this does not convince you that DHT (and androgens in general) is not the bad guy then I don't know what would.
Cancer "paradox": Testosterone Treats Prostate Cancer
DHT Prevents Prostate Cancer And May Even Treat It

I never said it was the bad guy, I think you are misunderstood the idea I presented that serum levels of DHT are completely different to actions in the dermis.

So then DHT is only elevated in those with prostate cancer as it tries to prevent the action of estrogen?
I could see that being the case, as I was lead to believe it was a fact those with prostate issues do have elevated DHT levels.

If you see my other posts I state that excess estrogen is the true bad guy, and my understanding was DHT was a tool that errantly causes fibrosis as a result of high estrogen stress.

 

[tallglass13]

Im waiting for my dht cream to arrive, and im using low dose testosterone. ..so im on board @haidut.....maybe its just scalp dht..idk

 

[Arrade]

If the atherosclerosis holds true, then taurine would prevent fibrosis, which happens in the scalp and also in the plaques of arteries.