Taurine, Lysine, & Arginine - Nitric Oxide (w/studies)

[Nicholas]

i've been rolling around these thoughts in my head for a long time now and wanted to get them out to get other insight/thoughts:

higher nitric oxide lowers cholesterol (vasodilation)
lower nitric oxide raises cholesterol (vasoconstriction)

interesting, because the only supplements i play around with are Taurine, Lysine, and Vitamin K2
and i never combine them, so i began to naturally see that Taurine seems to be a sort of opposite to Lysine. I noticed vasodilation with Taurine and vasoconstriction with Lysine. While i'm interested in this on a mechanical level, it really does go to show you how it's all still a balancing act. Nitric oxide is neither good nor bad. Just like everything else, it needs to be balanced. Here are some studies which point to this reality:

arginine lowers cholesterol via raising NO: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/96/4/1282.long
lysine raises cholesterol via lowering NO: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3155291
taurine lowers cholesterol via bile acid: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22648615
taurine also seems to lower cholesterol via raising NO: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19239138

Lysine is touted for its benefits to skin issues (i have noticed this to be true). But is lysine's benefit to skin only in a person with low cholesterol, high nitric oxide, or something relative to the two? http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s004030050367
(thinking outside of the serotonin box)

are skin improvements via Lysine because of its anti-aging benefit (for the person with low cholesterol/high nitric oxide)? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9951625

Am i interpreting any of this incorrectly? I would love to discuss this further with those who are interested.

 

[Nicholas]

other connections:

-vitamin C is a vasodilator (also a powerful libido-enhancer, whether healthy or not)
Linus Pauling says the benefit is in Vit C+Lysine (vasoconstricting and vasodilating at same time.....i.e. creating more vasodilation, but still balanced)

-acne & rosacea are commonly treated with vasoconstrictors

-coffee is both a vasodilator and vasoconstrictor in different parts of the body (explains part of its varying effects on different people)

-cigarette smoking is a vasodilator

-******both Taurine ***AND*** Lysine are used to treat anxiety******

-Taurine is popularly used for improving hair quality/growth (vasodilation)

-Lysine is popularly used for improving skin quality (vasoconstriction)

 

[Nicholas]

bumping thiss...

 

[Orion]

Here is a company studying nitric oxide as a treatment for acne.

http://www.novantherapeutics.com/pipeline/sb204/

 

[sladerunner69]

Tobacco/smoke is definitely vasoconstrictive because of the CO present.

Many here have reported that lysine has been crucial in preventing their hairloss...

I think the studies show that nitric oxide should be kept pretty low, but not too too low because it becomes practical. NO is being implicated in all sorts of diseases as well as correlating with high serotonin levels and its oxidative effects so I don't really see the case for raising NO.

 

[Birdie]

Nicholas, very interesting. I'll reply with what I've been mulling over lately...

Ray Peat's Newsletter of January 2016 discussed nitric oxide (NO), aging and adaptation...

In concluding he says that some important anti-nitric oxide defenses are progesterone, vit E, vit K, bit A, niacin amide, coffee, aspirin and foods containing flavonoids.... etc. Citric fruits and cooked mushrooms..

But mushrooms are high arginine/lysine ratio. A quandary for me since I need a higher lysine diet. (My take is to eat them but not in huge quantities.)

Interesting that asymmetrical dimethylarginine, a major inhibitor to L-arginine, interferes with (competes with or is major inhibitor of) NO production. ADMA or asymmetrical dimethylarginine (ADMA) is an endogenous nitric oxide synthase inhibitor. Ray cites a study showing ADMA is reduced in the CSF (cerebrospinal fluid) during aging and in patients with Alzheimer's.

I've read in several places over the years that there is a danger in taking lysine longer than 6 months at a time... Could that be because the official position is that NO is beneficial? Also, I've seen reports of people who say that they experienced angina when taking high doses.

Anyway, I am a long time user of lots of lysine. I have experienced nighttime angina that seemed to correlate with higher periods of using lysine.
Of course, that is only conjecture. And, in the above newsletter, RP says he suspects this type of variant angina is related to accumulation of nitric oxide...

 

[Rand56]

taurine also seems to lower cholesterol via raising NO: Antihypertensive effect of taurine in rat. - PubMed - NCBI

Does anyone know what the real deal is on taurine, because I have read some conflicting studies that say it lowers NO?

The reason I ask, I have recently upped my intake of taurine to 3 grams per day, and I have had this nagging symptom of feeling heaviness in my legs with some slight soreness in my quad muscles. Whether this is because of increased NO, idk, but this is the exact same symptom I got prior to learning more about Peat, when I tried an NO booster supp. Silly me, and I didn't stay on it long because of this nagging symptom.

In any event, I'm going to lower the taurine to no more than 1 gram per day to see if it makes any difference. It could be from something else, but just thought I would weigh in on this.

 

[TubZy]

Does anyone know what the real deal is on taurine, because I have read some conflicting studies that say it lowers NO?

The reason I ask, I have recently upped my intake of taurine to 3 grams per day, and I have had this nagging symptom of feeling heaviness in my legs with some slight soreness in my quad muscles. Whether this is because of increased NO, idk, but this is the exact same symptom I got prior to learning more about Peat, when I tried an NO booster supp. Silly me, and I didn't stay on it long because of this nagging symptom.

In any event, I'm going to lower the taurine to no more than 1 gram per day to see if it makes any difference. It could be from something else, but just thought I would weigh in on this.

In my personal experience, I think taurine at higher does lowers NO. My libido goes up but blood flow doesn't seem as strong down there. I think @sladerunner69 had the same experience. I wrote about it in my other thread. Anything over one gram I seem to notice it.

 

[ddjd]

i've been rolling around these thoughts in my head for a long time now and wanted to get them out to get other insight/thoughts:

higher nitric oxide lowers cholesterol (vasodilation)
lower nitric oxide raises cholesterol (vasoconstriction)

interesting, because the only supplements i play around with are Taurine, Lysine, and Vitamin K2
and i never combine them, so i began to naturally see that Taurine seems to be a sort of opposite to Lysine. I noticed vasodilation with Taurine and vasoconstriction with Lysine. While i'm interested in this on a mechanical level, it really does go to show you how it's all still a balancing act. Nitric oxide is neither good nor bad. Just like everything else, it needs to be balanced. Here are some studies which point to this reality:

arginine lowers cholesterol via raising NO: Dietary l-Arginine Reduces the Progression of Atherosclerosis in Cholesterol-Fed Rabbits
lysine raises cholesterol via lowering NO: Cholesterolemic effects of the lysine/arginine ratio in rabbits after initial early growth. - PubMed - NCBI
taurine lowers cholesterol via bile acid: The effect of taurine on cholesterol metabolism. - PubMed - NCBI
taurine also seems to lower cholesterol via raising NO: Antihypertensive effect of taurine in rat. - PubMed - NCBI

Lysine is touted for its benefits to skin issues (i have noticed this to be true). But is lysine's benefit to skin only in a person with low cholesterol, high nitric oxide, or something relative to the two? Nitric oxide and its implications in skin homeostasis and disease – a review
(thinking outside of the serotonin box)

are skin improvements via Lysine because of its anti-aging benefit (for the person with low cholesterol/high nitric oxide)? The nitric oxide hypothesis of aging. - PubMed - NCBI

Am i interpreting any of this incorrectly? I would love to discuss this further with those who are interested.

thanks for starting this thread Nicholas, i definitely am noticing Taurine increasing my NO levels.

ive done a lot of experimenting with Lysine also and can attest to the fact that lysine lowers NO significantly, a bit like niacinamide, or methylene blue.

I also have noticed the anti anxiety effects of taurine, but i think this is connected to its GABA promoting properties, a bit like glycine and beta alanine.

after lots of experimentation ive decided taurine is best only used every now and again and not regularly. Having taken it daily for several weeks im noticing problems in my body, i just feel stiffer and older, and im 99% sure its the taurine

 

[ddjd]

a study confirming Taurine increases NO - "taurine caused elevated concentration of 3-NT and NOx"

Effects of taurine on nitric oxide and 3-nitrotyrosine levels in spleen during endotoxemia. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Birdie]

In reading my above comment, I see I reported using lysine, so I just want to add here that I haven't been using it for some months.
I no longer have angina. My diet leans toward high lysine and low arginine, but when I add a lysine supplement, I experience angina again.

But, the op, Nicholas has some very interesting points about vasodilators and vasoconstrictors.
Someday, I might try lysine with vitamin C, but for now no lysine supplements for me.

 

[revenant]

Yet another supplement that doesn't seem to fit the "NO is bad" hypothesis so easily. Taurine has been shown to increase lifespan in animals, but it also increases NO in some studies. What's going on here?

 

[Antonello]

I noticed the vasoconstriction from lysine and vasodilation from taurine.
I'm wondering if by combining the two in the same dose can balance the side effects while still get the benefits.
Anyone have try this mix?

 

[yerrag]

arginine lowers cholesterol via raising NO: http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/96/4/1282.long

It doesn't say arginine lowers cholesterol. It says arginine is a precursor to NO which contributes to vasodilation in healthy blood vessels. By "healthy," I assume it means that the blood vessels are free from the effects of plaque, which blocks the expression of NO from endothelial cells. If the blood vessel's endothelial lining is covered in plaque (which is mistakenly associated with high cholesterol), arginine would have lesser an effect on vasodilation than it would when it isn't covered with plaque.

Therefore, I would not correlate arginine with high cholesterol. There is no basis. I would still find arginine helpful in increasing NO, which would still be helpful for vasodilation, as long as the blood vessel lining isn't so covered in plaque.

lysine raises cholesterol via lowering NO: Cholesterolemic effects of the lysine/arginine ratio in rabbits after initial early growth. - PubMed - NCBI

This study only shows lysine raising cholesterol but makes no mention of NO.

taurine lowers cholesterol via bile acid: The effect of taurine on cholesterol metabolism. - PubMed - NCBI

This is a link to an abstract, with no access to the full review, so I couldn't glean any such conclusion from the abstract. Not saying though that I don't agree with what's said.

taurine also seems to lower cholesterol via raising NO: Antihypertensive effect of taurine in rat. - PubMed - NCBI

There is no mention of cholesterol in the abstract, but the conclusion made was that taurine lowers blood pressure by increasing the serums levels of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase.

 

[yerrag]

Yet another supplement that doesn't seem to fit the "NO is bad" hypothesis so easily. Taurine has been shown to increase lifespan in animals, but it also increases NO in some studies. What's going on here?

I suppose if the NO were used (or transformed into an oxidant) by macrophages to breakdown debri, foreign matter, and bad bacteria, it would help increase lifespan.

 

[yerrag]

Therefore, I would not correlate arginine with high cholesterol. There is no basis. I would still find arginine helpful in increasing NO, which would still be helpful for vasodilation, as long as the blood vessel lining isn't so covered in plaque

There is no mention of cholesterol in the abstract, but the conclusion made was that taurine lowers blood pressure by increasing the serums levels of nitric oxide and nitric oxide synthase.

Would vitamin C + lysine, arginine, and taurine together help with lowering blood pressure? This is addressed to the context of high blood pressure being associated with plaque on arterial linings, or arteriosclerosis.

Vitamin C strengthens the collagen matrix on endothelial linings, while lysine attracts lp(a) away from the endothelial lining, in effect breaking down plaque, and when plaque is broken down, the endothelial lining can effectively release NO to effect vasodilation when needed, in effect lowering blood pressure. Arginine and taurine would increase NO production.