Tarmanders Auto-Immune Log

Amazoniac

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Guru, at least it confirms that potassium in great amounts is needed for recovery. The chlorid part is confusing to me.
Here they appoint the fingers to ketones:

Acidosis-Induced Hypochloremic Alkalosis in Diabetic Ketoacidosis Confirmed by The Modified Base Excess Method | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic

"The presence of chloride deficits and hypochloremic alkalosis in DKA without vomiting was demonstrated using the BECl of the modified BE method in our study. The mean BECl value was positive and significantly higher in DKA than in pre-DKA states (Table 2). BECl values ≧ 2 mEq/L were observed in 79.4% of patients with DKA, suggesting hypochloremic alkalosis due to chloride deficit (10, 11), and consistent with the low Cl/Na ratio and ClCorr values (Table 2). The alkalinizing effect of hypochloremia was substantial, effectively mitigating the base deficits in DKA by approximately 25% (Table 2). Furthermore, BECl tightly correlated with the total ketone concentration (Figure 1). That is, as hyperketonemia is more severe, the chloride deficit and hypochloremic alkalosis became greater. These results suggest the frequent coexistence of acidosis-induced hypochloremic alkalosis with DKA, and also the important roles of ketoacids in its pathogenesis. The strong correlations (P < .0001; n = 27) of BECl with SIG (r = 0.70) and sodium-corrected SIG (r = 0.75) support this conclusion."

"The mechanism of acidosis-induced hypochloremic alkalosis remains unclear. Based on the occurrence of acidosis-induced hypochloremia in nephrectomized and volume-controlled uremic rats, Madias et al (20) concluded that there was no reduction in Cl stores. Instead, they suggested the possibility that an internal ion shift occurred, either of chloride of the extracellular space or of sodium and water into the extracellular fluid. In the present study, the positive BECl might have occurred because of a chloride shift from plasma to erythrocytes or interstitial fluids, despite low bicarbonate state, and the negative BEFW might have followed an internal shift of free water (24, 25). Thus, our results support the argument proposed by Madias et al (20), and it is likely that these responses might be secondary to ketoacidosis, rather than being compensatory or adaptive (25)."

"In contrast, several factors including prior hypercapnea, volume contraction, potassium deficiency, chloruretic diuretics, persistent mineralocorticoid excess, etc., are responsible for the generation and maintenance of metabolic alkalosis (31–33)."​

VVhat's your opinion?
 
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Tarmander

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If it goes on for too long, people become depleted and shut everything down, including their responsiveness to their environment, adopting then the conserving metabolism. Becoming dull is useful to not suffer and waste scarce nutrition.

Yeah definitely. I crashed hard after my mid 20s, and the slow down from that was obvious and why I started reading into Peat. The theory was that by pushing metabolism, eventually that would lead to the uptake of raw materials and a reignition of metabolism. But after stimulating for years I saw very little progress until I started taking HCL and concentrace.

I have the impression that people who often supplement chlorids are eventually led to vit C as plain ascorbic acid and stick to it due to good results. I already posted why excess supplemental chlorides can be a problem but never gave much attention to HCl. Even less so for betaine HCl.

Could you point me to the problem with excess chlorides? I take Camu Camu every day which has a good deal of vitamin C. I really enjoy it and if I do not have it after a few days, I start to feel it. I figured the food form was decent enough. What do you think?

Guru, at least it confirms that potassium in great amounts is needed for recovery. The chlorid part is confusing to me.
Here they appoint the fingers to ketones:

Acidosis-Induced Hypochloremic Alkalosis in Diabetic Ketoacidosis Confirmed by The Modified Base Excess Method | The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology & Metabolism | Oxford Academic

"The presence of chloride deficits and hypochloremic alkalosis in DKA without vomiting was demonstrated using the BECl of the modified BE method in our study. The mean BECl value was positive and significantly higher in DKA than in pre-DKA states (Table 2). BECl values ≧ 2 mEq/L were observed in 79.4% of patients with DKA, suggesting hypochloremic alkalosis due to chloride deficit (10, 11), and consistent with the low Cl/Na ratio and ClCorr values (Table 2). The alkalinizing effect of hypochloremia was substantial, effectively mitigating the base deficits in DKA by approximately 25% (Table 2). Furthermore, BECl tightly correlated with the total ketone concentration (Figure 1). That is, as hyperketonemia is more severe, the chloride deficit and hypochloremic alkalosis became greater. These results suggest the frequent coexistence of acidosis-induced hypochloremic alkalosis with DKA, and also the important roles of ketoacids in its pathogenesis. The strong correlations (P < .0001; n = 27) of BECl with SIG (r = 0.70) and sodium-corrected SIG (r = 0.75) support this conclusion."

"The mechanism of acidosis-induced hypochloremic alkalosis remains unclear. Based on the occurrence of acidosis-induced hypochloremia in nephrectomized and volume-controlled uremic rats, Madias et al (20) concluded that there was no reduction in Cl stores. Instead, they suggested the possibility that an internal ion shift occurred, either of chloride of the extracellular space or of sodium and water into the extracellular fluid. In the present study, the positive BECl might have occurred because of a chloride shift from plasma to erythrocytes or interstitial fluids, despite low bicarbonate state, and the negative BEFW might have followed an internal shift of free water (24, 25). Thus, our results support the argument proposed by Madias et al (20), and it is likely that these responses might be secondary to ketoacidosis, rather than being compensatory or adaptive (25)."

"In contrast, several factors including prior hypercapnea, volume contraction, potassium deficiency, chloruretic diuretics, persistent mineralocorticoid excess, etc., are responsible for the generation and maintenance of metabolic alkalosis (31–33)."​

VVhat's your opinion?

Not sure what to think of this. So basically hyperthyroidism eventually leads to a loss of stomach acid? This would definitely support the whole Peat approach leading to food sensitivities.
 

Amazoniac

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Yeah definitely. I crashed hard after my mid 20s, and the slow down from that was obvious and why I started reading into Peat. The theory was that by pushing metabolism, eventually that would lead to the uptake of raw materials and a reignition of metabolism. But after stimulating for years I saw very little progress until I started taking HCL and concentrace.



Could you point me to the problem with excess chlorides? I take Camu Camu every day which has a good deal of vitamin C. I really enjoy it and if I do not have it after a few days, I start to feel it. I figured the food form was decent enough. What do you think?



Not sure what to think of this. So basically hyperthyroidism eventually leads to a loss of stomach acid? This would definitely support the whole Peat approach leading to food sensitivities.
I can't believe I forgot to count the months for your birthday.

The problem with chlorides can be developed from the previous post alone. Chlorides are supposed to keep recirculating from digestion with reuptake when digestion proceeds, there might be something else to the story.
You're using those to acidify the body, but their loss can happen to balance the impaired bicarbonate production and sodium loss.

It seems to be an exhaustion of function when the metabolism is finally suppressed for good. Gerson's protocol for debilitated people didn't involve chloride supplementation. It was potassium acetate, gluconate and phosphate. The phosphate part I guess it was to compensate for very high amounts of vitamin A without D, elevated PTH leads to phosphorus loss from what I've read. He used to give pepsin instead for a while for his patients until their bodies were able to recover.
 
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Tarmander

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I can't believe I forgot to count the months for your birthday.

The problem with chlorides can be developed from the previous post alone. Chlorides are supposed to keep recirculating from digestion with reuptake when digestion proceeds, there might be something else to the story.
You're using those to acidify the body, but their loss can happen to balance the impaired bicarbonate production and sodium loss.

It seems to be an exhaustion of function when the metabolism is finally suppressed for good. Gerson's protocol for debilitated people didn't involve chloride supplementation. It was potassium acetate, gluconate and phosphate. The phosphate part I guess it was to compensate for very high amounts of vitamin A without D, elevated PTH leads to phosphorus loss from what I've read. He used to give pepsin instead for a while for his patients until their bodies were able to recover.

So if I understand you right, chlorides are supposed to recirculate, and because I can seemingly take endless amounts of them, there is something else wrong that is depleting them? And that something else wrong may be a complete suppression of my metabolism in some sense? Kinda bleak.
 

Amazoniac

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So if I understand you right, chlorides are supposed to recirculate, and because I can seemingly take endless amounts of them, there is something else wrong that is depleting them? And that something else wrong may be a complete suppression of my metabolism in some sense? Kinda bleak.
HCl is supposed to recirculate and there's the daily ingestion of chlorides. A way to verify if it's indeed an exhaustion of function during a suppression of metabolism (rather than an actual lack of enough acid) is if it can be easily corrected with thyroid supplementation faster than what diet is able to replenish. Since the body has suppressed its metabolism for a reason, it's possible to compromise those functions further when you increase it, there and fore the time available for that must not be too long. There must be experiments out there that involved this.
 
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Tarmander

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HCl is supposed to recirculate and there's the daily ingestion of chlorides. A way to verify if it's indeed an exhaustion of function during a suppression of metabolism (rather than an actual lack of enough acid) is if it can be easily corrected with thyroid supplementation faster than what diet is able to replenish. Since the body has suppressed its metabolism for a reason, it's possible to compromise those functions further when you increase it, there and fore the time available for that must not be too long. There must be experiments out there that involved this.


Hmm...so basically my body is lowering HCL to save function that I am undoing by taking HCL. What it is trying to save, who knows.

I have some thoughts on this. There is an interplay in all nature between conservation and risk. Slowing metabolism down is a conservative move while speeding it up has more risk. However, slow it down too much, and you lose so much function that it can become a positive feedback loop down into oblivion.

The recent changes I have made have vastly increased my ability in life to both communicate and get things done. I have endurance now where before there was little, I sleep well, and things are moving positively. But I would be lying if I said I was secure. I often feel that I am on a knife's edge where I am functional enough to keep things moving positively, but I do not push it so as to overheat and have it all come crashing down. I think life might be best lived on that knife's edge.

Any ideas on signs to watch out for with these Chlorides? They seem to open my metabolism up, shed weight, better my blood sugars, etc etc etc. What should I be watching for you think?
 

Amazoniac

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Hmm...so basically my body is lowering HCL to save function that I am undoing by taking HCL. What it is trying to save, who knows.

I have some thoughts on this. There is an interplay in all nature between conservation and risk. Slowing metabolism down is a conservative move while speeding it up has more risk. However, slow it down too much, and you lose so much function that it can become a positive feedback loop down into oblivion.

The recent changes I have made have vastly increased my ability in life to both communicate and get things done. I have endurance now where before there was little, I sleep well, and things are moving positively. But I would be lying if I said I was secure. I often feel that I am on a knife's edge where I am functional enough to keep things moving positively, but I do not push it so as to overheat and have it all come crashing down. I think life might be best lived on that knife's edge.

Any ideas on signs to watch out for with these Chlorides? They seem to open my metabolism up, shed weight, better my blood sugars, etc etc etc. What should I be watching for you think?
What if the benefit is mainly from potassium, which happens to be depleted in the alarmed stage as vvcll, and not so much the chlorides? What if you felt benefit from the betaine part of HCl, considering that it might help to spare choline (I guess prolonged stimulus of a nerve can deplete it), methionine or regulate balance of a wasser-logged fatigued tissue?
Have you considered other forms of potassium to confirm this? Perhaps half as gluconate, half as acetate?
What about betaine anhydrous? Ray has advised against it (Wagner, 2018), but as a brief test it can be useful.

The following guys wrote a great article on metabolic alkalosis, they pretty much mailed it.

Metabolic alkalosis. (in case the links does the crashings in the future, it was authored by BF Palmer and RJ Alpern)

Chlorides can be useful for mere managament, but insufficient intake doesn't cause metabolic alkalosis nor maintain it. Even the authors comment that it's the cause that has to be addressed.

There are different ways to generate the state, but to sustain it, the kidneys play a major role. It requires various factors, but problems with elevated aldosterone and potassium deficiency are some major ones. Magnesium deficiency can play a role in some cases as well.

They mentioned that sodium chloride, potassium chloride and probably magnesium chloride can be useful to correct it. However! It seems that it's not the onion that is correcting the problem, it's just that those chloride salts happen to not aggravate the state.

There are useful tables there, check those out.​

Benefiting from Concentrace reinforces the idea of generalized depletion.

Sulforaphane is a stress signal to increase glutathione without actually providing what it needs to produce it. This can force its production for a while but isn't much sustainable because the body might be stressed and only managing enough to get buy.

Chris to it again:

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/13/manage-glutathione-status/

"Now, there’s one final piece to the puzzle. I said before that that first step in glutathione synthesis is regulated by do you have enough and do you have what it needs to make it? That’s negative feedback from glutathione and insulin. It’s also regulated by oxidative stress, and that means that we want a certain amount of oxidative stress. This may sound counterintuitive but this is the principle of hormesis and hormesis is the principle that a little bit of a bad thing is good because it stimulates you to respond to it in a good way. There are a number of compounds that are phase two. Generally things that are called phase two inducers that induce phase two of liver detoxification are inducers of glutathione synthesis, and generally all of this is regulated by a pathway called Nrf2. Nrf2 stimulation, Nrf2 to simplify, basically it’s a sensor of oxidative stress. When there’s more oxidative stress you get more Nrf2 signaling and you upregulate glutathione synthesis, all the antioxidant enzymes, all the components of antioxidant defense and xenobiotic metabolism. Xenobiotic metabolism is the detoxification of foreign compounds.

Some of the more famous ones are milk thistle. Also, Rhonda Patrick from FoundMyFitness — I’ll link to this in the show notes — just did an interview on the use of sulforaphane, which is derived from cruciferous vegetables. You can dose yourself with a phase two inducer, but this principle is true of polyphenol compounds in fruits and vegetables very broadly. It’s true of green tea extract. Green tea extract will increase glutathione. But the simplest way to attack this is to eat a diet rich in fruits and vegetables that also has a lot of other lean tissues including lean meat. You’re providing glutathione from all of those and the fruits and vegetables are providing you with thousands of different polyphenols, many of which all have this Nrf2 stimulating activity. So I think that it’s better to focus on a diet rich in a broad spectrum of different types of fruits and vegetables rather than to focus on supplementing with a phase two inducer. But if you have a problem and you’re trying to solve a problem, then you could use phase two inducers. I’m not going to go into any kind of comprehensive view on dosing and the different ones because there are so many of them. There are so many different options. So I think maybe in the future I’ll try to produce some kind of guide to that, but I think that that’s something that you reserve for when a diet rich in fruits and vegetables isn’t cutting it.

Now, you also have to be aware that what the phase two inducer or the Nrf2 stimulator, what these things are doing are increasing your body’s sense that you need glutathione. It’s not doing a damn thing to provide you with the resources to make that glutathione. The way that they do this is to cause a little bit of oxidative stress in the cell. If you took those things at super high concentrations, like if you just took your cells and bathed them in EGCG which is the predominant antioxidant in green tea, I’ve seen the evidence. Bring the concentration high enough, what do you do? You kill the cells. So it’s not necessarily the case that more is always better. And certainly, if the reason that your glutathione status is poor is because you don’t have the resources to make it, adding the Nrf2 inducer might make things worse because you’re causing oxidative stress and you can’t respond to it because you don’t have enough cysteine or you don’t have enough glycine or you don’t have enough insulin or you don’t have enough ATP or you don’t have enough magnesium."​

This might interest you:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...without-supplements-perfectly-possible.23789/

I should warm that I often have no glue about what I'm saying, therefore take my posts with a rain of salt.
 
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Tarmander

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What if the benefit is mainly from potassium, which happens to be depleted in the alarmed stage as vvcll, and not so much the chlorides? What if you felt benefit from the betaine part of HCl, considering that it might help to spare choline (I guess prolonged stimulus of a nerve can deplete it), methionine or regulate balance of a wasser-logged fatigued tissue?
Have you considered other forms of potassium to confirm this? Perhaps half as gluconate, half as acetate?
What about betaine anhydrous? Ray has advised against it (Wagner, 2018), but as a brief test it can be useful.

The following guys wrote a great article on metabolic alkalosis, they pretty much mailed it.

Metabolic alkalosis. (in case the links does the crashings in the future, it was authored by BF Palmer and RJ Alpern)

Chlorides can be useful for mere managament, but insufficient intake doesn't cause metabolic alkalosis nor maintain it. Even the authors comment that it's the cause that has to be addressed.

There are different ways to generate the state, but to sustain it, the kidneys play a major role. It requires various factors, but problems with elevated aldosterone and potassium deficiency are some major ones. Magnesium deficiency can play a role in some cases as well.

They mentioned that sodium chloride, potassium chloride and probably magnesium chloride can be useful to correct it. However! It seems that it's not the onion that is correcting the problem, it's just that those chloride salts happen to not aggravate the state.

There are useful tables there, check those out.​

Benefiting from Concentrace reinforces the idea of generalized depletion.

Sulforaphane is a stress signal to increase glutathione without actually providing what it needs to produce it. This can force its production for a while but isn't much sustainable because the body might be stressed and only managing enough to get buy.

Chris to it again:

https://chrismasterjohnphd.com/2017/01/13/manage-glutathione-status/

"Now, there’s one final piece to the puzzle. I said before that that first step in glutathione synthesis is regulated by do you have enough and do you have what it needs to make it? That’s negative feedback from glutathione and insulin. It’s also regulated by oxidative stress, and that means that we want a certain amount of oxidative stress. This may sound counterintuitive but this is the principle of hormesis and hormesis is the principle that a little bit of a bad thing is good because it stimulates you to respond to it in a good way. There are a number of compounds that are phase two. Generally things that are called phase two inducers that induce phase two of liver detoxification are inducers of glutathione synthesis, and generally all of this is regulated by a pathway called Nrf2. Nrf2 stimulation, Nrf2 to simplify, basically it’s a sensor of oxidative stress. When there’s more oxidative stress you get more Nrf2 signaling and you upregulate glutathione synthesis, all the antioxidant enzymes, all the components of antioxidant defense and xenobiotic metabolism. Xenobiotic metabolism is the detoxification of foreign compounds.

Some of the more famous ones are milk thistle. Also, Rhonda Patrick from FoundMyFitness — I’ll link to this in the show notes — just did an interview on the use of sulforaphane, which is derived from cruciferous vegetables. You can dose yourself with a phase two inducer, but this principle is true of polyphenol compounds in fruits and vegetables very broadly. It’s true of green tea extract. Green tea extract will increase glutathione. But the simplest way to attack this is to eat a diet rich in fruits and vegetables that also has a lot of other lean tissues including lean meat. You’re providing glutathione from all of those and the fruits and vegetables are providing you with thousands of different polyphenols, many of which all have this Nrf2 stimulating activity. So I think that it’s better to focus on a diet rich in a broad spectrum of different types of fruits and vegetables rather than to focus on supplementing with a phase two inducer. But if you have a problem and you’re trying to solve a problem, then you could use phase two inducers. I’m not going to go into any kind of comprehensive view on dosing and the different ones because there are so many of them. There are so many different options. So I think maybe in the future I’ll try to produce some kind of guide to that, but I think that that’s something that you reserve for when a diet rich in fruits and vegetables isn’t cutting it.

Now, you also have to be aware that what the phase two inducer or the Nrf2 stimulator, what these things are doing are increasing your body’s sense that you need glutathione. It’s not doing a damn thing to provide you with the resources to make that glutathione. The way that they do this is to cause a little bit of oxidative stress in the cell. If you took those things at super high concentrations, like if you just took your cells and bathed them in EGCG which is the predominant antioxidant in green tea, I’ve seen the evidence. Bring the concentration high enough, what do you do? You kill the cells. So it’s not necessarily the case that more is always better. And certainly, if the reason that your glutathione status is poor is because you don’t have the resources to make it, adding the Nrf2 inducer might make things worse because you’re causing oxidative stress and you can’t respond to it because you don’t have enough cysteine or you don’t have enough glycine or you don’t have enough insulin or you don’t have enough ATP or you don’t have enough magnesium."​

This might interest you:
https://raypeatforum.com/community/...without-supplements-perfectly-possible.23789/

I should warm that I often have no glue about what I'm saying, therefore take my posts with a rain of salt.

Yeah sulforaphane along with some of the other substances would probably fall under "stressful," but I am going outside the Peat box here. I have been in the Peat box for years now, and avoiding all these bad things like broccoli, or olive oil (1g of pufa!!). I have gained weight, become sluggish, aged, grown a buffalo hump, taken huge amounts of insulin along with become more insulin resistant...I mean at what point do you say something is not working here. A big part of the picture is about the years of stress and burnout that I went through yes, but Peat is missing something when it comes to recovery. I email him often, asking direct questions, and he tells me about cellular function. That is awesome and interesting, but how do I build the actual bridge? That is what I mean by him being an intellectual.

At some point, I have to be pragmatic. I avoided antioxidants and things that were "stressful," and I still will avoid the big ones like fasting, chemicals/ xenoestrogens, low carb, etc etc, but I think some of these things that Peat would call stressful are actually good for you. By the by, cronometer says I am doing something like 5 grams of potassium per day just from food, not counting supplementation.
 
L

lollipop

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I have been in the Peat box for years now
I again am not knowledgeable, but my hit for myself was this was the problem. I went back to a varied diet of home cooked foods including all ranges of vegetables and good variety of fruits and meats, etc, less supplements, good saturated fats including olive oil - avoiding all other vegetable oils, a glass of milk a day not huge quantities, occasional white fish, eggs, seafood, occasional avocado, one glass of orange juice or homemade lemonade a day, etc. Balance and moderation, healthy home cooked foods, daily yoga and meditation, increased deep love with my husband, walking, etc., accepting that I am a bit heavier (healthier) than my skinny diet restriction days, etc.

I have never felt better AND including perimenopausal stress, still never felt better.

There is something to recognizing the wisdom learned from Peat, applying it according to each of our circumstances. It is easy to get caught up in islands and camps. I honestly try to avoid such antithesis dialectics. I am more about inclusion these days rather than exclusion, even in diet. I think it sets up a much healthier energetic stance.
 

Blossom

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The biggest benefit I see in Peat's work after all these years is he teaches us to question everything and think for ourselves. Each person knows their own body and situation better than anyone else but since our culture promotes learned helplessness most of us just simply don't know where to begin. He is a great way to transition out of the victim mentality and into a place where we start to feel empowered to help ourselves. Just eating all macros in reasonable quantities was huge for me personally. Once you start getting adequate nourishment and stop abusing, neglecting and torturing yourself it's much easier to figure out your own path. Literally he probably helped save my life at one point and I'm certain he doesn't even know it. I'm sure I have done and currently do some things that don't fit perfectly into what we think of as a Peaty but I weighed the pros and cons and decided what I could live with best for my circumstances. Unfortunately we live in an imperfect world and what is probably theoretically best for longevity doesn't always work for daily functionality in the short term so we all have to find our own unique optimal balance of things. It's good that we discuss these things imo.
ETA: He definitely encourages the questioning of both mainstream and alternative health dogma and a lot of his "students " for lack of a better term end up questioning him as well. I honestly believe that is the sign of a really good teacher.
 
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sunraiser

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Yeah sulforaphane along with some of the other substances would probably fall under "stressful," but I am going outside the Peat box here. I have been in the Peat box for years now, and avoiding all these bad things like broccoli, or olive oil (1g of pufa!!). I have gained weight, become sluggish, aged, grown a buffalo hump, taken huge amounts of insulin along with become more insulin resistant...I mean at what point do you say something is not working here. A big part of the picture is about the years of stress and burnout that I went through yes, but Peat is missing something when it comes to recovery. I email him often, asking direct questions, and he tells me about cellular function. That is awesome and interesting, but how do I build the actual bridge? That is what I mean by him being an intellectual.

At some point, I have to be pragmatic. I avoided antioxidants and things that were "stressful," and I still will avoid the big ones like fasting, chemicals/ xenoestrogens, low carb, etc etc, but I think some of these things that Peat would call stressful are actually good for you. By the by, cronometer says I am doing something like 5 grams of potassium per day just from food, not counting supplementation.

I read a bit of this thread and have seen one or two of your posts over time. I'm similar to you in some ways; life experience-wise that is.

Son of single mother, had to be the person that was strong and deal with everyone elses problems as seeing their pain hurt me so much. The idea of making the situation worse by sharing my woes was galling so I just carried them. My escape was stimulation like you - video games, some porn, internet etc.

I did no fap and celibacy for a year and a bit and it helped, but the thing you're missing is EXERCISE, it really is. I unfortunately took it too far and trained myself into oblivion because I had so much do or die motivation to get well after feeling horrendous for so long.

I have since realised my social anxiety is just a calcium/magnesium metabolism issue from fat soluble defiency. My body does not uptake fat solubles whilst in a state of fatty liver (because it's congested I suppose, or perhaps a protective mechanism?). Exercise is the best way to cure this - HIIT is working best for me. Heavy weight lifting did not have enough positive impacts I don't believe.

You need light in conjunction with exercise as getting light in your eyes is part of the chain of events that improves mitochondrial health (via retinol in the eye), but you'll also start craving sun on your skin at some point. These things all need to happen.

I have spent long periods in hell but fortunately didn't get so overweight like you - I did a Youreatopia/matt stone style refeed but I did it with whole grains and whole foods. It still ****88 me up with endotoxin just like you though as my liver couldn't process the food. My view on food now is basically the same as Lisaferraro mentioned above.

This is just my small perspective at current - there are things I haven't considered because perhaps my status quo meant they were never a consideration so there are obviously plenty of things personal to you. It's just glaring that exercise is missing for you.

Walking 30 mins a day is not enough for me. It has to be proper lymph system stimulating stuff.

The Ultimate 8-Week HIIT For Fat-Burning Program

There's a thread to give you an idea of what might be useful and enjoyable. It doesn't have to be a million percent all out if you don't want but it has to be a large degree of effort. Note, I eat nuts, avocado, a small amount of whole grains. Ray Peat articles are interesting but I cannot personally agree with his conclusions at all.

There are different types of people that respond to different types of things - perhaps we're just not people that his approach works for. Historically all cultures seem to identify different "types" of people -Ayurvedic, Chinese, loads more I'm sure. Health shouldn't be on a knife edge. I know people that abuse their bodies and still look so healthy, charismatic and are completely sociable and able to achieve what they want in life (they all exercise). Exercise and light are the things that make health and diet not so much on a knife edge.
 
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L

lollipop

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The biggest benefit I see in Peat's work after all these years is he teaches us to question everything and think for ourselves. Each person knows their own body and situation better than anyone else but since our culture promotes learned helplessness most of us just simply don't know where to begin. He is a great way to transition out of the victim mentality and into a place where we start to feel empowered to help ourselves. Just eating all macros in reasonable quantities was huge for me personally. Once you start getting adequate nourishment and stop abusing, neglecting and torturing yourself it's much easier to figure out your own path. Literally he probably helped save my life at one point and I'm certain he doesn't even know it. I'm sure I have done and currently do some things that don't fit perfectly into what we think of as a Peaty but I weighed the pros and cons and decided what I could live with best for my circumstances. Unfortunately we live in an imperfect world and what is probably theoretically best for longevity doesn't always work for daily functionality in the short term so we all have to find our own unique optimal balance of things. It's good that we discuss these things imo.
ETA: He definitely encourages the questioning of both mainstream and alternative health dogma and a lot of his "students " for lack of a better term end up questioning him as well. I honestly believe that is the sign of a really good teacher.
What a beautiful and wise post.
 
L

lollipop

Guest
Health shouldn't be on a knife edge. I know people that abuse their bodies and still look so healthy, charismatic and are completely sociable and able to achieve what they want in life (they all exercise). Exercise and light are the things that make health and diet not so much on a knife edge.
+1
 

stsfut

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I read a bit of this thread and have seen one or two of your posts over time. I'm similar to you in some ways; life experience-wise that is.

Son of single mother, had to be the person that was strong and deal with everyone elses problems as seeing their pain hurt me so much. The idea of making the situation worse by sharing my woes was galling so I just carried them. My escape was stimulation like you - video games, some porn, internet etc.

I did no fap and celibacy for a year and a bit and it helped, but the thing you're missing is EXERCISE, it really is. I unfortunately took it too far and trained myself into oblivion because I had so much do or die motivation to get well after feeling horrendous for so long.

I have since realised my social anxiety is just a calcium/magnesium metabolism issue from fat soluble defiency. My body does not uptake fat solubles whilst in a state of fatty liver (because it's congested I suppose, or perhaps a protective mechanism?). Exercise is the best way to cure this - HIIT is working best for me. Heavy weight lifting did not have enough positive impacts I don't believe.

You need light in conjunction with exercise as getting light in your eyes is part of the chain of events that improves mitochondrial health (via retinol in the eye), but you'll also start craving sun on your skin at some point. These things all need to happen.

I have spent long periods in hell but fortunately didn't get so overweight like you - I did a Youreatopia/matt stone style refeed but I did it with whole grains and whole foods. It still ****88 me up with endotoxin just like you though as my liver couldn't process the food. My view on food now is basically the same as Lisaferraro mentioned above.

This is just my small perspective at current - there are things I haven't considered because perhaps my status quo meant they were never a consideration so there are obviously plenty of things personal to you. It's just glaring that exercise is missing for you.

Walking 30 mins a day is not enough for me. It has to be proper lymph system stimulating stuff.

The Ultimate 8-Week HIIT For Fat-Burning Program

There's a thread to give you an idea of what might be useful and enjoyable. It doesn't have to be a million percent all out if you don't want but it has to be a large degree of effort. Note, I eat nuts, avocado, a small amount of whole grains. Ray Peat articles are interesting but I cannot personally agree with his conclusions at all.

There are different types of people that respond to different types of things - perhaps we're just not people that his approach works for. Historically all cultures seem to identify different "types" of people -Ayurvedic, Chinese, loads more I'm sure. Health shouldn't be on a knife edge. I know people that abuse their bodies and still look so healthy, charismatic and are completely sociable and able to achieve what they want in life (they all exercise). Exercise and light are the things that make health and diet not so much on a knife edge.
So you have gotten over your social anxiety? Mine comes and goes but I haven’t been able to pinpoint it.
 

Amazoniac

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Yeah sulforaphane along with some of the other substances would probably fall under "stressful," but I am going outside the Peat box here. I have been in the Peat box for years now, and avoiding all these bad things like broccoli, or olive oil (1g of pufa!!). I have gained weight, become sluggish, aged, grown a buffalo hump, taken huge amounts of insulin along with become more insulin resistant...I mean at what point do you say something is not working here. A big part of the picture is about the years of stress and burnout that I went through yes, but Peat is missing something when it comes to recovery. I email him often, asking direct questions, and he tells me about cellular function. That is awesome and interesting, but how do I build the actual bridge? That is what I mean by him being an intellectual.

At some point, I have to be pragmatic. I avoided antioxidants and things that were "stressful," and I still will avoid the big ones like fasting, chemicals/ xenoestrogens, low carb, etc etc, but I think some of these things that Peat would call stressful are actually good for you. By the by, cronometer says I am doing something like 5 grams of potassium per day just from food, not counting supplementation.
Tarmander, the only part that I mentioned Ramón was something against his suggestions.

Since the main goal is to replenish those cations, perhaps there's no need to be extreme supplementing just one salt. Maybe a combination is worth considering: potassium chlorid and acetate or malate, for example. This makes a more balanced approach, especially if you just guessed and didn't try the other safe options to know if you can get a better effect.

Why not increase glutathione directly then?

You don't need to build bridges, you can just ask Travis for the truth.

P and s.: HYPERTHYROIDISM WITH ACHLORHYDRIA
 

sunraiser

Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2017
Messages
549
So you have gotten over your social anxiety? Mine comes and goes but I haven’t been able to pinpoint it.

I have gotten over it at times. My appetite is down at the moment due to some setbacks trying to introduce pasteurised milk but it's something that i know disappears when metabolism and liver are happy so I'm not worried about it.

I'll post in extreme depth when I'm feeling consistently care free!
 
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Tarmander

Tarmander

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Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,763
Results are in for my higher dose vitamin D test. Here is the summary timeline:

•Mid October, started taking higher doses of vitamin D, anywhere from 4000-12000 IU per day.
•Blood test at the end of October showed the following:
Vitamin D level (35-100 range) 33.9
PTH (15-65 range) 22
•October 31st began taking 20k IU of vitamin D per day
•November 21st second blood test administered, results:
Vitamin D level (35-100 range) 68
PTH (12-65 range) 15
•November 26th ceased vitamin D due to adverse side effects.


At first, vitamin D made me feel amazing. For most of October and into November I had great improvements:

•my eyesight improved
•I lost a few pounds
•any brain fog went away, and I was calmer with more patience.
•blood sugars were insanely better with no sign of dawn phenom. Tresiba dosage went from 36 to 31, a 14% decrease in basal insulin needs. Short term insulin needs also decreased.
•Lots of fatigue at first which disappeared as time went on. Energy levels exploded in early November. I began lifting weights and working out again.
•I went from 4 drops of tyromix and 1 dosage of tyromax per day down to 1 dosage of tyromax and 1 drop of tyromix per day. TSH still fell to .07 (!) and free T3 at 6.2 (1.4-4.1 range) from the November 21st blood test. So thyroid massively increased while lowering the amount I took. I could seemingly lower it further.
•Cholesterol fell from the usual 230 to 195.
•Allergies and sneezing has decreased by 90%+
•EMF sensitivity has gone down. I do not notice at first when someone has their cell phone on next to me...takes maybe 20 minutes now.
•Ability to sit in front of the computer without feeling off also got better.

However, around the first week of November, I started to have this little cough. Nothing major, but ongoing. I also began to become out of breath at times, especially after eating. Gums and gluten free foods made it worse. Towards mid November, I began coughing up yellow phlegm frequently. In the past week, this has become chronic, and I am having a very difficult time breathing. I wheeze throughout the night which disturbs sleep. I am coughing up at least a couple tablespoons of phlegm per day. I have a constant headache and body ache from the cough. The couple hours after meals are tortuous as I struggle to pull air into my lungs. I tried to lower the amount of vitamin D I was taking from 20k to 8-12k, but the coughing symptoms did not resolve enough for comfort. So I am discontinuing until the coughing subsides, and I can figure outhow to get around it.

Theories on the coughing:
•Gut related. Perhaps the vitamin D is agitating my guts in someway, causing endotoxin and who knows what. I switched from taking liquid to putting the vitamin D in a pill and that seemed to help in a small way.
•Bad bacteria in my gut lowered my vitamin D levels to accomplish a chronic inflection. The raised vitamin D has unleashed some war in my gut and I am getting overgrowth that is causing terrible endotoxin or something.

I have a soil based probiotic I might try that are supposed to have some antibiotic like effects. I also found Mastic Gum slightly helpful in opening up my airways. I was also interested in D-limonene but I am not sure how effective that is. Any other ideas I am open to hearing.
 

tankasnowgod

Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2014
Messages
8,131
Results are in for my higher dose vitamin D test. Here is the summary timeline:

•Mid October, started taking higher doses of vitamin D, anywhere from 4000-12000 IU per day.
•Blood test at the end of October showed the following:
Vitamin D level (35-100 range) 33.9
PTH (15-65 range) 22
•October 31st began taking 20k IU of vitamin D per day
•November 21st second blood test administered, results:
Vitamin D level (35-100 range) 68
PTH (12-65 range) 15
•November 26th ceased vitamin D due to adverse side effects.


At first, vitamin D made me feel amazing. For most of October and into November I had great improvements:

•my eyesight improved
•I lost a few pounds
•any brain fog went away, and I was calmer with more patience.
•blood sugars were insanely better with no sign of dawn phenom. Tresiba dosage went from 36 to 31, a 14% decrease in basal insulin needs. Short term insulin needs also decreased.
•Lots of fatigue at first which disappeared as time went on. Energy levels exploded in early November. I began lifting weights and working out again.
•I went from 4 drops of tyromix and 1 dosage of tyromax per day down to 1 dosage of tyromax and 1 drop of tyromix per day. TSH still fell to .07 (!) and free T3 at 6.2 (1.4-4.1 range) from the November 21st blood test. So thyroid massively increased while lowering the amount I took. I could seemingly lower it further.
•Cholesterol fell from the usual 230 to 195.
•Allergies and sneezing has decreased by 90%+
•EMF sensitivity has gone down. I do not notice at first when someone has their cell phone on next to me...takes maybe 20 minutes now.
•Ability to sit in front of the computer without feeling off also got better.

However, around the first week of November, I started to have this little cough. Nothing major, but ongoing. I also began to become out of breath at times, especially after eating. Gums and gluten free foods made it worse. Towards mid November, I began coughing up yellow phlegm frequently. In the past week, this has become chronic, and I am having a very difficult time breathing. I wheeze throughout the night which disturbs sleep. I am coughing up at least a couple tablespoons of phlegm per day. I have a constant headache and body ache from the cough. The couple hours after meals are tortuous as I struggle to pull air into my lungs. I tried to lower the amount of vitamin D I was taking from 20k to 8-12k, but the coughing symptoms did not resolve enough for comfort. So I am discontinuing until the coughing subsides, and I can figure outhow to get around it.

Theories on the coughing:
•Gut related. Perhaps the vitamin D is agitating my guts in someway, causing endotoxin and who knows what. I switched from taking liquid to putting the vitamin D in a pill and that seemed to help in a small way.
•Bad bacteria in my gut lowered my vitamin D levels to accomplish a chronic inflection. The raised vitamin D has unleashed some war in my gut and I am getting overgrowth that is causing terrible endotoxin or something.

I have a soil based probiotic I might try that are supposed to have some antibiotic like effects. I also found Mastic Gum slightly helpful in opening up my airways. I was also interested in D-limonene but I am not sure how effective that is. Any other ideas I am open to hearing.

Interesting. Unfortunate that you got those symptoms after a promising start. A couple ideas...

First- Activated Charcoal. When I was taking tetracycline semi-regularly, I used AC 2 or 3 days a week. Elimination was very good during that time, and I avoiding any sort of symptoms like you have, that may have been due to detox or endotoxin. Very good in the short term, and probably also to keep on hand.

Second- Vitamin C. I found some interesting studies on how it can neutralize endotoxin and such, sometimes from as little as 1 gram a day. Vitamin C Is An Endotoxin Antagonist And Can Reduce Cortisol And Inflammation

Also, in high enough doses, Vitamin C might be able to take away your symptoms, as Dr. Cathcart explains here-

Both C and D seem to help with immunity to illness, and I am beginning to think they might have different actions (D working on the immune system level, C at the celluar level). So, they might be complementary.

Funny, I was just reading today how Vitamin D might be able to shift bowel flora. Also of note, there is also this haidut thread where he discusses D as an endotoxin antagonist- Vitamin D Is Endotoxin (LPS / TLR4) Antagonist, May Treat LPS-linked Conditions
 
OP
Tarmander

Tarmander

Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
3,763
Interesting. Unfortunate that you got those symptoms after a promising start. A couple ideas...

First- Activated Charcoal. When I was taking tetracycline semi-regularly, I used AC 2 or 3 days a week. Elimination was very good during that time, and I avoiding any sort of symptoms like you have, that may have been due to detox or endotoxin. Very good in the short term, and probably also to keep on hand.

Second- Vitamin C. I found some interesting studies on how it can neutralize endotoxin and such, sometimes from as little as 1 gram a day. Vitamin C Is An Endotoxin Antagonist And Can Reduce Cortisol And Inflammation

Also, in high enough doses, Vitamin C might be able to take away your symptoms, as Dr. Cathcart explains here-

Both C and D seem to help with immunity to illness, and I am beginning to think they might have different actions (D working on the immune system level, C at the celluar level). So, they might be complementary.

Funny, I was just reading today how Vitamin D might be able to shift bowel flora. Also of note, there is also this haidut thread where he discusses D as an endotoxin antagonist- Vitamin D Is Endotoxin (LPS / TLR4) Antagonist, May Treat LPS-linked Conditions

Thanks for the video, I will check it out.

I already take charcoal, but not vitamin C. I have some on order from that one Janelle likes.
 

baccheion

Member
Joined
Jun 25, 2017
Messages
2,113
Did you take vitamin D with magnesium and vitamin K (10 IU D3 : 2 mcg+ MK-4)? And maybe a multivitamin to get RDA amounts of vitamin A, iodine, etc?
 
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