Tardive dyskinesia

[Lizka]

Thank you for accepting me to the forum.

I’ve read some posts on Tardive dyskinesia on this forum, notably @haidut ‘s post on the subject (May 26th 2015). I was on antidepressants for many years and developed involuntary movements in my neck and face when I just about got to zero mg of Sertraline (I tapered off very slowly). This was in 2019. I’m still struggling with the movements and it’s been diagnosed as various things (psychogenic dystonia - my dad died a number of months before my symptoms started; I lost a job etc etc - so my osteopath suggested this diagnosis). I then saw a physio who suggested thoracic outlet syndrome. Anyway, I don’t believe it’s either of these - I contacted a psychiatrist who specialises in damage caused by antidepressants and other drugs and he suggested that my symptoms are Tardive dyskinesia.

The post I read by @haidut posted in 2015 makes a suggestion of trying Thiamine. I’m going to try this and see how it goes.

I’m currently taking Magnesium Bisglycinate 160mg twice a day; I have regular Epsom salts baths (I add bicarbonate of soda to these and sometimes aspirin as well). I’ve been taking the Magnesium since August last year but feel like it’s not making a huge difference.

Can I try the thiamine in conjunction with the magnesium, or should I ditch the magnesium while trying the thiamine?

I’m trying to eat the Ray Peat way, one thing I feel is I probably don’t eat enough so I’m focussing on upping my calories as well.

I’m quite highly stressed and anxious at the moment due to being jobless and the constant spasming really gets me down.

Is the thiamine safe for me to try to try and get some relief from these spasms?

Thank you.

 

[Peatress]

Welcome to the forum. Akathisia is a different condition but vaguely related. You might find this thread helpful

Akathisia II – Deep Dive

********NOTE******** FOR EASIER READABILITY, DOWNLOAD THE ATTACHED PDF. IT HAS IDENTICAL INFORMATION AS THIS POST, BUT FORMATTED NICELY. IT IS ALSO SLIGHTLY COLORCODED: BOLD TEXT = IMPORTANT REGULAR = WELL, REGULAR BLUE = TECHNICAL, DON'T READ UNLESS INTERESTED. FOR A TL;DR - READ ALL BOLD...

raypeatforum.com

If you need to read about thiamine search posts by @mostlylurking

 

[Lizka]

Welcome to the forum. Akathisia is a different condition but vaguely related. You might find this thread helpful

Akathisia II – Deep Dive

********NOTE******** FOR EASIER READABILITY, DOWNLOAD THE ATTACHED PDF. IT HAS IDENTICAL INFORMATION AS THIS POST, BUT FORMATTED NICELY. IT IS ALSO SLIGHTLY COLORCODED: BOLD TEXT = IMPORTANT REGULAR = WELL, REGULAR BLUE = TECHNICAL, DON'T READ UNLESS INTERESTED. FOR A TL;DR - READ ALL BOLD...

raypeatforum.com

If you need to read about thiamine search posts by @mostlylurking

Thank you!

 

[mostlylurking]

Can I try the thiamine in conjunction with the magnesium, or should I ditch the magnesium while trying the thiamine?

I've been taking high dose thiamine hcl for two years. It is my understanding that there is a need for magnesium when taking thiamine. I take magnesium glycinate while high dosing thiamine hcl. So I think that it's probably fine to keep taking your magnesium. Thiamine is recommended to correct the problem of being too sensitive to magnesium (gut disturbance from magnesium).

Why Thiamine Supplementation Requires Magnesium - Hormones Matter

Magnesium is absolutely essential for normal thiamine activity in the body. Thiamine activation depends upon sufficient magnesium stores.

www.hormonesmatter.com

I’m quite highly stressed and anxious at the moment due to being jobless and the constant spasming really gets me down.

Is the thiamine safe for me to try to try and get some relief from these spasms?

I am not a doctor and I don't play one on TV. That said, I did take ssri's (Prozac) for several years, then ONE PILL of Zoloft, then quit cold turkey because my reaction to that one pill was terrible. I went along for a few years on nothing, then another doctor put me on a horse dose of 5-htp which I dutifully took for 10 years. Then I went off it cold turkey when I found Ray Peat in 2015. I had lots of symptoms of serotonin overload plus estrogen dominance from a tubal ligation I had gotten 37 years earlier.

Thiamine is needed to lower serotonin in the brain.
suggested reading:

Effect of thiamine deficiency on brain serotonin turnover - PubMed

Serotonin turnover has been investigated in regional brain areas of rats made thiamine deficient by pyrithiamine (PT). Following intracisternal injection of [14C]5-hydroxytryptamine ([14C]5-HT), a marked increase in the accumulation of [14C]5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid ([14C]5-HIAA) was found in...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Serotonin Syndrome and Thiamine: Is There a Connection? - Hormones Matter

A mild deficiency of thiamine is responsible for the large number of the polysymptomatic illnesses reported.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Anyhow, I have found high dose thiamine hcl to be a godsend. I take other b vitamins too plus progesterone, pregnenolone, magnesium glycinate, and prescription desiccated thyroid prescribed by an endocrinologist. I do eat a Peaty diet but I don't eat a lot of sugar and I don't drink coffee or black tea or any alcohol. Sugar uses up thiamine; these two things need to be in balance. Coffee and tea block thiamine.

suggested reading:

How Can Something As Simple as Thiamine Cause So Many Problems? - Hormones Matter

Is thiamine deficiency too simple to explain the devastating nature of the systemic adverse reactions to some vaccines and medications?

www.hormonesmatter.com

Beyond Deficiency: Using Thiamine as a Metabolic Stimulant - Hormones Matter

Thiamine is functioning as a metabolic stimulant to restore energy metabolism inhibited by factors unrelated to nutritional status.

www.hormonesmatter.com

Is Thiamine the Answer? - Hormones Matter

Thiamine is essential to cellular energy and energy stimulation is the essential factor required to treat any disease.

www.hormonesmatter.com

I’m trying to eat the Ray Peat way, one thing I feel is I probably don’t eat enough so I’m focussing on upping my calories as well.

If you are deficient in thiamine, sugar will make it worse. Coffee blocks thiamine function. I think orange juice has redeeming qualities so I never stopped drinking it. I eat a lot of dairy, eggs, gelatin, also oysters, shrimp, liver.

I hope you find this helpful.

 

[Blossom]

I can confirm that thiamine helps. In 2009 I started having symptoms of TD after being poisoned by conventional medicine/poly pharmacy and that’s what started my health journey. I used a b-complex with extra thiamine at the time and weaned off the meds. It took several months for the involuntary movements to stop but they gradually reduced with time. I didn’t know about Peat back then so you may have more rapid results than I did. Best wishes!

 

[mostlylurking]

Is the thiamine safe for me to try to try and get some relief from these spasms?

From my own personal experience, I believe that it is safe. There are several types of thiamine on the market. I tried a few. I wound up sticking with thiamine hcl because I never had any negative effects from it. Except when I tried taking 2.5 grams in one day which was too much for me and gave me shooting electrical pains in my thighs that night.

I tried TTFD thiamine but it gave me a bad headache; I was very low in glutathione and TTFD uses glutathione so I couldn't tolerate it. I also tried the sublingual thiamine mononitrate but I didn't like how it affected my short term memory so I went back to thiamine hcl. I'm very sensitive to nitrates so maybe that's why I didn't do so well on it.

I found Dr. Costantini's website to be very helpful because he always used thiamine hcl for his Parkinson's Disease patients. There's good information there. You may find the patient videos helpful. They're very short and in Italian but there's some with subtitles.

 

[Blossom]

From my own personal experience, I believe that it is safe. There are several types of thiamine on the market. I tried a few. I wound up sticking with thiamine hcl because I never had any negative effects from it. Except when I tried taking 2.5 grams in one day which was too much for me and gave me shooting electrical pains in my thighs that night.

I tried TTFD thiamine but it gave me a bad headache; I was very low in glutathione and TTFD uses glutathione so I couldn't tolerate it. I also tried the sublingual thiamine mononitrate but I didn't like how it affected my short term memory so I went back to thiamine hcl. I'm very sensitive to nitrates so maybe that's why I didn't do so well on it.

I found Dr. Costantini's website to be very helpful because he always used thiamine hcl for his Parkinson's Disease patients. There's good information there. You may find the patient videos helpful. They're very short and in Italian but there's some with subtitles.

Yes, I think it’s definitely adequate for helping TD. I used thiamine hcl back in 2009 because I didn’t know about any other forms and it worked fine. Starting simple is usually best. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge on thiamine!

 

[Lizka]

I've been taking high dose thiamine hcl for two years. It is my understanding that there is a need for magnesium when taking thiamine. I take magnesium glycinate while high dosing thiamine hcl. So I think that it's probably fine to keep taking your magnesium. Thiamine is recommended to correct the problem of being too sensitive to magnesium (gut disturbance from magnesium).

Thank you for your detailed and helpful post. I’ll get the Thiamine today and keep going with the Magnesium.

 

[Lizka]

I can confirm that thiamine helps. In 2009 I started having symptoms of TD after being poisoned by conventional medicine/poly pharmacy and that’s what started my health journey. I used a b-complex with extra thiamine at the time and weaned off the meds. It took several months for the involuntary movements to stop but they gradually reduced with time. I didn’t know about Peat back then so you may have more rapid results than I did. Best wishes!

Thanks Blossom - I’m so glad for you that things cleared up! I’ve been having TD symptoms since 2019 so I’m praying the Thiamine gives me some relief as I’m very tired.

 

[Blossom]

Thanks Blossom - I’m so glad for you that things cleared up! I’ve been having TD symptoms since 2019 so I’m praying the Thiamine gives me some relief as I’m very tired.

I’m praying it does too.

 

[Lizka]

I’m praying it does too.

 

[mostlylurking]

Yes, I think it’s definitely adequate for helping TD. I used thiamine hcl back in 2009 because I didn’t know about any other forms and it worked fine. Starting simple is usually best. Thanks for sharing all your knowledge on thiamine!

I'm glad to try to help. Researching thiamine online answered a lot of my health questions about issues I've experienced for many years.

TD: does that stand for thiamine deficiency? or are you referring specifically to Tardive dyskinesia? Too many TDs in this topic.

 

[Lizka]

I'm glad to try to help. Researching thiamine online answered a lot of my health questions about issues I've experienced for many years.

TD: does that stand for thiamine deficiency? or are you referring specifically to Tardive dyskinesia? Too many TDs in this topic.

Tardive dyskinesia :)

 

[mostlylurking]

Tardive dyskinesia :)

Got it. On pubmed, they use TD for both thiamine deficiency and also for Tardive dyskinesia.

 

[Blossom]

Got it. On pubmed, they use TD for both thiamine deficiency and also for Tardive dyskinesia.

Yes, I was referring to tardive dyskinesia. Sorry I should have been clearer on that! @Lizka, thank you.