T3 Suddenly Stopped Working

Sagitarrius90

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Hey All,

I'll give you a break down of what was going on and the reason for the thread is that my t3 suddenly stopped having an effect on me and was wondering if any other's had this experience

Some quick background
-Been on TRT for 3 years 100 mg test prop a week
-Had low E2 in march stopped taking an AI
-Weight as of today is 192 (Dieted from 205 down to 192 March-Today) Bodyfat is around 12% down from 18-20%
-Cholesterol pre t3 back in Late March was 240-250
-Have been supplementing iron due to low ferratin 30 - copper 4-6 mg a day maybe twice to three times a week, magnesium 500-1000 mg twice-three times a week

All was well I was getting a great effect from t3 up until 3-4 weeks ago. I bumped my dose to 50 mcg and I suddenly had high e2 high cortisol high serotonin symptoms and retained a lot of water. Some theories were that I burned thru my electorlyte stores which is very plausible considering I've been dieting/exercising/sweating a lot. Now my t3 seems to have no effect at all on me.

Has or does anyone know why this is happening? I do feel slightly run down so perhaps this is a cortisol related issue? My only theory is that the big jump in t3 rose my estrogen levels and with higher cortisol the t3 isn't working like it should. Not sure what I should do from here. I want to lower my trt dose to lower estrogen but I don't have high e2 signs which I know all about since being on a high trt dose prior to reducing to 100 weekly.

thanks all!
 

Risingfire

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I was taking a similar amount of t3 and it was working fantastic. I decided if some was good more was better and it caused increased adrenaline. I would drop it back down for a while
 

AdoTintor

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"Since the body normally produces about 4 mcg of T3 in an hour, taking 10 or 20 mcg at once is unphysiological" - ray peat

With too much t3 the liver starts converting any T4 into reverse-t3. - ray peat

So perhaps large doses of t3 would work for a while but eventually deplete t4? (it would take a while coz the body has a lot of t4 backed up) Or perhaps just having a lot of rt3 kicking around is bad in itself. Bit shaky on this last part.
 
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Sagitarrius90

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Lyle mcdonald responded to me and said when dieting you're body adapts to the process and although I'm not feeling an effect it is still working.

He is saying the water retention is most likely cortisol from dieting which would go away when I bring calories to maintenance.

Seems plausible
 
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Sagitarrius90

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T3 itself lowers rt3 though and t4 is useless when taking t3 because t4 converts to active t3 anyway.

I'm not dosing high either I'm doing 5mcg maybe every hour or two but not going over 50 mcg a day
 

AdoTintor

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I wonder if there are other reasons for t3 not to work. Another Ray Peat quote is the following: "Measuring the amount of thyroid in the blood isn’t a good way to evaluate adequacy of thyroid function, since the response of tissues to the hormone can be suppressed (for example, by unsaturated fats)".

So t3 action can be suppressed and he implies multiple things can suppress it, unsaturated fat being just one. I wonder what the others are? Is this PUFA in blood or in tissues, and could it quickly switch off t3 like you saw?
 
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Sagitarrius90

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I was able to drop 8% bodyfat (underestimating) from march until july.

With the same source of thyroid also bought another source to address the chance it was bunk and same effect. I think perhaps t3 is making the dieting adaptations I've placed on my body since march and its catching up to me. I do notice or did notice 2-3 days when I brought calories up to maintenace and over that water was coming off so I really have my heart set on the fact its cortisol related. Now whether too much cortisol is blocking the effect or t3 is indeed working yet just further increasing stress hence the water retention I dont know. If I had to guess I'd say it's working but placing additional stress on me because I know hypo symptoms vs cortisol related symptoms . With hypo I'm cold tired very dull slow thinking yet I'm in overdrive with high/moderate temps.

I guess if I just stop dieting I'll find out what it is but it's hard to get on this dieting train when you stop- I havent been this lean in my life and the benefits I'm getting I truley believe outweigh this issue.

The leaner you are the more dht production
Less pufa in my body as I'm close to 10% body fat
Just look better more confident and happier
Sleeps been better so far even on diet cant wait to imagine what it's going to be like when I stop
 
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Sagitarrius90

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Just because you saw an anti peat supplement/mineral you can do what you want but I feel its illogical to say I bet that's why. Especially when my ferratin is 40. I'm totally not on board with peat when it comes to iron. I remember when my ferratin was in the 100s and I felt amazing mentally physically - plus it increases dopamine - irons crucial and its needed for thyroid as well. But maybe you can clarify why irons bad rather than just say what you said it's not even something considerable in this convo
 
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Try a different route of application, depending on form/usability.

Or maybe just wait a few days and try again with divided, smaller doses throughout the day.

Unfortunately there seems to be a fine line that can be easily tipped over for many things in a physiological sense, which could explain why one thing might work fantasically at one time while doing nearly the opposite at others.

Caffeine, for example, during some periods made me feel phenomenal at times, while for now it isn't doing me justice much.

Also, as a last bid of advice you can try surrogates or thyroid-esque supplements when more direct things are not working well such as caffeine, aspirin, NDT or animal thyroid, niacinamide, hot showers/baths, etc. I mean at the very least you can know there are "backups" even if placebo or the psychological effects of being more resourceful or proactive might account for a large part of it.
 
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Sagitarrius90

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Thanks @scruvedream.

I think in my case it seems nothing works because the diet adaptive processes have caught up to me and when cortisol is increased e2 goes up and then everything goes out of wack.

I think I'm going to diet break lower t3 to 25 mcg replacement dose (50mcg is replacement dose for people with no working thyroid fyi) and see what happens.

When I did the above for 2-3 days I shed water weight so maybe if I do what lyle McDonald recommends a 2-3 week break I can see what's up and make moves.

Off topic somewhat but I'm staying away from AI (arimixex , aromasin). In the past I probbalt would have just popped that but it makes me feel terrible all at the expense of contuining my diet so I'm done with that - hopefully if others come across this theyd do the same - their nasty I only recommend if you're on a cycle with alot of aromatizing compounds - my try dose of 100 mg has me in a good range but I bet e2 is higher from what I've been mentioning
 

shine

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T3 stopped working for me too at some point. Iron and vitamin A fixed the issue.
Vitamin A makes cells more sensitive to thyroid. You might have burned through your vitamin A stores with that 50mcg dose.
 
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Sagitarrius90

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I want to try this as per Lyle Mcdonald and the study found at the below of what he wrote to me (In my case I will do 4-6 times since I heard if you have lower cortisol or adrenal issues too much at one time isn't good and a mix of ray peat's advice about 4-6 mcg at a time- totalling 25-35 mcg)

So 50 mcg is a complete replacement dose if you have zero thyroid (athyrotic). 25mcg is half of that. I find it most interesting that split dosing (bid = twice daily) avoiding suppressing the thyroid axis.
***
From the leptin thyroid study
For the first 3 subjects 25 mcg of T3 was administered as a single daily oral dose which is approximately 50% of the “replacement dose” of T3 reported necessary to titrate TSH to normal concentrations in athyrotic individuals (8). One subject demonstrated TSH oversuppression to values <0.1 mU/L. Divided T3 dosing (8) has been shown to avoid oversuppression of TSH and possible subclinical hyperthyroidism (11) and the initial dosing schedule was switched to 12.5 mcg p.o. b.i.d. for all subsequent subjects, with titration as needed to keep the circulating concentrations of T3 at 8AM (drawn before the morning placebo or T3 dose) within the “normal range” as described above.
Citing
8. Celi F, Zemskova M, Linderman J, Babar N, Skarulis M, Csako G, Wesley R, Costello R, Penzak S, and Pucino F. The pharmacodynamic equivalence of levothyroxine and liothyronine. A randomized, double blind, cross-over study in thyroidectomized patients. Clin Endocrinol 72: 709-715, 2010.
 
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Sagitarrius90

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From what I've gathered in these posts and Ray's email exchange 4mcg and hour wont suppress thyroid and matches natural body rhythms

4x24= 96 mcg t3 a day? Or are we talking waking hours wo maybe 16x4= 64 mcg a day?

Regardless if I nibble 25 mcg a day which I've read is a full replacement dose in healthy adults with functioning thyoids this wont shut me down? Especially if split dosed? I intend on 25-35 mcg t3 only a day split dose by the hour which isnt a hassle for me.
 

Jing

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T3 stopped working for me too at some point. Iron and vitamin A fixed the issue.
Vitamin A makes cells more sensitive to thyroid. You might have burned through your vitamin A stores with that 50mcg dose.
What's the best type of vitamin a to take?
 

shine

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What's the best type of vitamin a to take?

I use retinyl palmitate drops and take 2 beef liver capsules (Ancestral Supplements) daily.
Retinyl palmitate is the storage form that is mostly found in the liver, which is why I prefer that form.
 
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Sagitarrius90

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Does anyone know the dose that would shut down thyroid?

the topic seems to be finicky as t3 is supposed to support you're thyroid not shut it down- I wonder at what dose it would shut down you're thyroid.

I think it's dependent on dose used and what you naturally produce- Not everyone produces 4 mcg/hr - that's like saying a typical male produces 7mg test daily (HEALTHY individuals- those with compromised health would produce less)

Using 25-35 mcg - I've read again 25mcg would be a total replacement dose for someone who has a functioning thyroid and 50 mcg would be for someone with no thyroid.

Seems anything over 50 mcg would shut it down.
 

Elize

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2 beef liver capsules (Ancestral Supplements)

I see these capsules contains collagen. Would the collagen not be an issue for those who have high histamine issues?
 
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From what I've gathered in these posts and Ray's email exchange 4mcg and hour wont suppress thyroid and matches natural body rhythms

4x24= 96 mcg t3 a day? Or are we talking waking hours wo maybe 16x4= 64 mcg a day?

Regardless if I nibble 25 mcg a day which I've read is a full replacement dose in healthy adults with functioning thyoids this wont shut me down? Especially if split dosed? I intend on 25-35 mcg t3 only a day split dose by the hour which isnt a hassle for me.

You need to get a pill grinder/mortar to have a finely divided powder, the t3 is not evenly distributed in a tablet.
 

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