Synthetic Vitamin C: Another Blow At Fortification

[RisingSun]

It's not convincing. By this reasoning, we shouldn't take any supplement and simply eat whole foods that contains the vitamins in supplements.

Eating whole foods is preferable, but there are reasons that make taking supplements practical.

In the case of synthetic ascorbic acid, it becomes the only practical source of vitamin C when intake of huge quantities is required. Eating large quantities of fruit to attain a large dose of vitamin C isn't practical. Large quantities are needed for therapeutic purposes.

It's only practical to eat fruits when it's a maintenance dosage of vitamin C that's needed.

Doesn’t make sense from an evolutionary perspective.
If getting that much vitamin C in nature in a day isn’t practical, maybe we are not meant to take that much. Maybe the RDA are wrong

 

[InChristAlone]

Doesn’t make sense from an evolutionary perspective.
If getting that much vitamin C in nature in a day isn’t practical, maybe we are not meant to take that much. Maybe the RDA are wrong

Heart disease is probably the alternative. Just about every old person I know has bypass surgery.

 

[RisingSun]

Heart disease is probably the alternative. Just about every old person I know has bypass surgery.

That’s preposterous.

To claim that low vitamin C levels explain the increase in heart disease globaly

 

[yerrag]

Doesn’t make sense from an evolutionary perspective.
If getting that much vitamin C in nature in a day isn’t practical, maybe we are not meant to take that much. Maybe the RDA are wrong

The RDA is very low, and wrong.

Above a certain minimum of vitamin C intake to avoid scurvy, the body can compensate with other antioxidants the body can endogenously produce. But it still requires the body to be at a certain level of homeostasis to do so. When the body isn't at that level, I can see vitamin C intake at larger quantities becoming a necessity.

Without Vitamin C is in this instance, the individual will just die and the rest of the species can still carry on. Only the fittest survive. There is still an evolutionary justification for what you say.

The problem is that we have learned to tweak that evolutionary model. If we just dispense with synthetic vitamin C intake, and do away with any sort of intervention that is a hallmark of our civilization, then we can expect to go back to the evolutionary track and have a much smaller world population. Perhaps the rhinos, lions, tigers, and wild buffaloes would rejoice at this turn of their fortune.

 

[RisingSun]

The RDA is very low, and wrong.

Above a certain minimum of vitamin C intake to avoid scurvy, the body can compensate with other antioxidants the body can endogenously produce. But it still requires the body to be at a certain level of homeostasis to do so. When the body isn't at that level, I can see vitamin C intake at larger quantities becoming a necessity.

Without Vitamin C is in this instance, the individual will just die and the rest of the species can still carry on. Only the fittest survive. There is still an evolutionary justification for what you say.

The problem is that we have learned to tweak that evolutionary model. If we just dispense with synthetic vitamin C intake, and do away with any sort of intervention that is a hallmark of our civilization, then we can expect to go back to the evolutionary track and have a much smaller world population. Perhaps the rhinos, lions, tigers, and wild buffaloes would rejoice at this turn of their fortune.

My concerne is that we are playing gods and we notice decades later that we were wrong to be vegetarians, or wrong to be raw meat eaters, or wrong to use vaccine, or wrong to demonize dairy...
Basically we constantly learn and change, whereas Earth came up with us at the end of a multi-billion years evolutionnary process.

So I have high doubts when we claim that « intervention being the hallmark of our civiliazation » is anything good

 

[tankasnowgod]

That’s preposterous.

To claim that low vitamin C levels explain the increase in heart disease globaly

It's not preposterous. Have you ever read Linus Pauling's theory of Heart Disease? That is the core argument. No animal that can produce it's own Vitamin C get's heart disease.

 

[RisingSun]

It's not preposterous. Have you ever read Linus Pauling's theory of Heart Disease? That is the core argument. No animal that can produce it's own Vitamin C get's heart disease.

The Dark Side of Linus Pauling's Legacy

 

[yerrag]

My concerne is that we are playing gods and we notice decades later that we were wrong to be vegetarians, or wrong to be raw meat eaters, or wrong to use vaccine, or wrong to demonize dairy...
Basically we constantly learn and change, whereas Earth came up with us at the end of a multi-billion years evolutionnary process.

So I have high doubts when we claim that « intervention being the hallmark of our civiliazation » is anything good

It's a mixed bag on intervention. Like any tool, it can be abused. But is there abuse when it comes to using vitamin C? Is there a profit model driving it to be used where the end result is grave injury and harm? The best and purest, uncontaminated form of vitamin C is still very low in cost as compared to the drugs sold by pharma, where profit drives the use of synthetic drugs to irresponsible heights.

Vitamin C is even used to save my cats, who already produce their own vitamin C when healthy. If I let my evolutionary purism drive my action, my cats would already be dead.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Basically we constantly learn and change, whereas Earth came up with us at the end of a multi-billion years evolutionnary process.

Even if you assume that statement is true...... why would you assume you are the apex of an evolutionary process? What if we're just at another mistake level, and the apex isn't for another 537 generations?

 

[RisingSun]

Even if you assume that statement is true...... why would you assume you are the apex of an evolutionary process? What if we're just at another mistake level, and the apex isn't for another 537 generations?

That’s a determinist argument. Earth doesn’t have a goal, appart from that of homeostasis.
So we are a certain way in order to match the environment at a given time.
Adjustments are made by Earth to have all species fit together at any given time.

If you tweek yourself to look like the apex specy 537 generation away from now, you don’t fit with the present environment anymore, and that’s where problems arise

 

[tankasnowgod]

The Dark Side of Linus Pauling's Legacy

Linus Pauling was the greatest mind of the 20th century, and his work on Vitamin C was never refuted, and all based solid evidence. His theory of heart disease has never been refuted. As far as I can tell, Steven Barrett is just a bitter doctor who never had the success Linus did, so he became a webmaster later in his life to attempt to achieve a degree of fame. Oh, by the way, of those supposed 16 studies that Barrett references, NONE OF THEM used the doses that Pauling talked about in his book. NOT A SINGLE ONE refuted him. That article is full of inaccuracies.

Anyway, beyond Pauling's excellent research, I also know about the clinical experience of both Klenner and Cathcart, and have even personally used Vitamin C (12 grams over two hours) to stop a cold dead in it's tracks. So no doctor-turned-webmaster can tell me that it doesn't work. My personal experience trumps his falsehoods.

 

[tankasnowgod]

That’s a determinist argument. Earth doesn’t have a goal, appart from that of homeostasis.
So we are a certain way in order to match the environment at a given time.
Adjustments are made by Earth to have all species fit together at any given time.

If you tweek yourself to look like the apex specy 537 generation away from now, you don’t fit with the present environment anymore, and that’s where problems arise

So, basically, you're a Genetic Calvinist. Also, when you say "problems arise," problems for who? Or what? You used the passive voice, so I don't the subject of that statement.

I also find it odd that you are on a computer of some sort, using electricity, and posting things one the internet..... apparently, all that is hunky dory with the homeostasis of our enviorment. But taking a Vitamin C supplement? THAT'S NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!!!

 

[Waynish]

Do you think this affects the use of synthetic vitamin C for things like water de-chlorination? Still seems like a valid use of synthetic vitamin C as far as I can see (i.e. Vitamin C based shower filters).

 

[rei]

There is no difference in synthetic and naturally derived vitamin c. Both can leave impurities from the process, so better just to look for credible certification from independent laboratory to not contain heavy metals.

 

[somuch4food]

@tankasnowgod I appreciate your comments. I was a bit too much into "natural" equals "healthy" when I posted this.

I have started a more intuitive journey where I note how my body react to how I treat it. Whether it's natural or not does not mean much to me now since knowing that vitamin A which I never supplemented can be dangerous even from dietary sources.

I figure that I need to learn what my body needs depending on its state. There is no silver bullet and nobody is exactly the same.

I am now considering supplementing vitamin C (pure ascorbic acid) to see if it has positive effects on my skin and dental health.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Do you think this affects the use of synthetic vitamin C for things like water de-chlorination? Still seems like a valid use of synthetic vitamin C as far as I can see (i.e. Vitamin C based shower filters).

They work excellently for that. The made action is changing chlorine to chloride. On top of that, the small amount of vitamin C in the water is good for the skin. I just got one, and like it so far. Still probably too early to see any benefits.

 

[tygertgr]

There is no difference in synthetic and naturally derived vitamin c. Both can leave impurities from the process, so better just to look for credible certification from independent laboratory to not contain heavy metals.

I guess that's one way to approach things, but another is that a few handful of white pine needles from a healthy tree boiled in water for a couple minutes will produce a tea with a megadose of clean vitamin C, as people have been doing for tens of thousands of years. Nettle leaves, and some readily available commercial berry and chamomile tisanes have loads of vitamin C. No need to trust a series of industrial processes and lab equipment supply chains. Elizabeth Holmes could be publishing those test results. Easier to trust a healthy plant you can see with your own eyes.

The Pauling stuff goes on about how it's so weird that humans don't biosynthesize vitamin C and that's a huge problem. I think it's pretty clear from the archeological record that literally a hundreds of thousands of years ago people figured out how to consistently source more than enough of the stuff from healthy plants in their surroundings, because it's literally everywhere in abundance. Just brew a tea.

Aren't bell peppers loaded with the stuff? You can get canned or pickled red or green peppers for cheap. Why worry about this supplement nonsense when you can just toss a few pepper strips in your omelette, which tastes good anyway.

 

[Steven Bussinger]

I haven't read this thread, but I already subdued the copper argument here: Ascorbate And The Copper Hand-Off Just take Vitamin C away from high copper foods.

Copper deficiency is the only legitimate concern about ascorbic acid supplementation, aside from general supplement processing concerns (heavy metals, etc).

In another thread, I remember Janelle pointing out that animals don't synthesize whole food vitamin C.

 

[yerrag]

I guess that's one way to approach things, but another is that a few handful of white pine needles from a healthy tree boiled in water for a couple minutes will produce a tea with a megadose of clean vitamin C, as people have been doing for tens of thousands of years. Nettle leaves, and some readily available commercial berry and chamomile tisanes have loads of vitamin C. No need to trust a series of industrial processes and lab equipment supply chains. Elizabeth Holmes could be publishing those test results. Easier to trust a healthy plant you can see with your own eyes.

The Pauling stuff goes on about how it's so weird that humans don't biosynthesize vitamin C and that's a huge problem. I think it's pretty clear from the archeological record that literally a hundreds of thousands of years ago people figured out how to consistently source more than enough of the stuff from healthy plants in their surroundings, because it's literally everywhere in abundance. Just brew a tea.

Won't the heat affect the potency of vitamin C in the white pine needles?

 

[tygertgr]

Won't the heat affect the potency of vitamin C in the white pine needles?

I don't think so. And people wouldn't have bothered for over a thousand years of documented history if it didn't work. I wouldn't fixate on pine needles. My point is that plants with tons of vitamin C in them are common. It's just simply not hard to source. You don't need to trust some industrial supply chain and multiple regulatory agencies. Humanity made it this far without them.