Suspected "too Low Cortisol" And Iron Deficiency

[tankasnowgod]

The reason iron is thought to be so "dangerous" according to Ray Peat is because modern diets contain imbalanced mineral ratios and lack of vitamins which is characterized by large amounts of iron(fortified grains is the big one here), phosphorus, and copper.

Actually, if you look at Ray Peat's article on Iron's Dangers, he outlines why Iron is dangerous in the second paragraph-

"Just like lead, mercury, cadmium, nickel and other heavy metals, stored iron produces destructive free radicals. The harmful effects of iron-produced free radicals are practically indistinguishable from those caused by exposure to X-rays and gamma rays; both accelerate the accumulation of age-pigment and other signs of aging. Excess iron is a crucial element in the transformation of stress into tissue damage by free radicals."

 

[redsun]

Actually, if you look at Ray Peat's article on Iron's Dangers, he outlines why Iron is dangerous in the second paragraph-

"Just like lead, mercury, cadmium, nickel and other heavy metals, stored iron produces destructive free radicals. The harmful effects of iron-produced free radicals are practically indistinguishable from those caused by exposure to X-rays and gamma rays; both accelerate the accumulation of age-pigment and other signs of aging. Excess iron is a crucial element in the transformation of stress into tissue damage by free radicals."

Whoops, I wrote that in a way saying that was what Ray Peat said was the problem with iron. I meant to say the real issue is the imbalanced mineral ratios and lack of vitamins that cause the problems with iron. No nutrient is isolated and I am saying when Ray Peat suggests iron is dangerous for the reasons you qouted it points the blame in the wrong direction, that iron is not the fault rather its iron without competition(high iron, low every other mineral) is the problem.

Its very easy to have "excess iron" in the modern world because its put into everything and there is little competition by other minerals while Peat's advice in general is just to restrict iron as much as possible as the general rule. It shouldnt be restricted, rather it needs to be balanced out by other minerals and proper vitamin content to utilize iron and should only be strictly avoided based on blood tests necessitating avoiding it.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Whoops, I wrote that in a way saying that was what Ray Peat said was the problem with iron. I meant to say the real issue is the imbalanced mineral ratios and lack of vitamins that cause the problems with iron. No nutrient is isolated and I am saying when Ray Peat suggests iron is dangerous for the reasons you qouted it points the blame in the wrong direction, that iron is not the fault rather its iron without competition(high iron, low every other mineral) is the problem.

Its very easy to have "excess iron" in the modern world because its put into everything and there is little competition by other minerals while Peat's advice in general is just to restrict iron as much as possible as the general rule. It shouldnt be restricted, rather it needs to be balanced out by other minerals and proper vitamin content to utilize iron and should only be strictly avoided based on blood tests necessitating avoiding it.

Well, you are absolutely correct that consuming excess iron is easy in the modern world. In less than 100 years, bloodletting fell out of favor as THE go to medical treatment for pretty much every disease, hookworm and other intestinal parasites were eliminated, iron rich meats became more available, people became more sedentary, iron supplements became more popular, and iron fortification was forced on the public. Most of these were beneficial, or neutral (except iron fortification, which is seriously evil), but it's very easy to be iron loaded today.

I'd tend to agree, there is little reason to limit intake iron from non adulterated foods, including red meat. The form of iron used in fortification, however, promotes pathogenic bacterial growth in the GI tract (iron promotes bacterial growth like no other mineral), and since it is basically in the form of tiny iron shavings, also causes a several foreign body reactions every time it's ingested. Iron supplements can be a bit safer, but still wreck havoc with digestion (check Amazon reviews for iron supplements, you'll see this is very common). Iron supplements can have value, but should really be used as a last resort, and certainly not at the level they are freely used at today. Neither supplemental iron nor iron used in fortification have the natural plant or animal protections that iron eaten from natural foods would contain.

 

[redsun]

Well, you are absolutely correct that consuming excess iron is easy in the modern world. In less than 100 years, bloodletting fell out of favor as THE go to medical treatment for pretty much every disease, hookworm and other intestinal parasites were eliminated, iron rich meats became more available, people became more sedentary, iron supplements became more popular, and iron fortification was forced on the public. Most of these were beneficial, or neutral (except iron fortification, which is seriously evil), but it's very easy to be iron loaded today.

I'd tend to agree, there is little reason to limit intake iron from non adulterated foods, including red meat. The form of iron used in fortification, however, promotes pathogenic bacterial growth in the GI tract (iron promotes bacterial growth like no other mineral), and since it is basically in the form of tiny iron shavings, also causes a several foreign body reactions every time it's ingested. Iron supplements can be a bit safer, but still wreck havoc with digestion (check Amazon reviews for iron supplements, you'll see this is very common). Iron supplements can have value, but should really be used as a last resort, and certainly not at the level they are freely used at today. Neither supplemental iron nor iron used in fortification have the natural plant or animal protections that iron eaten from natural foods would contain.

Following a diet with minimal processed foods and balanced nutrients avoids the main issue of iron accumulation while avoiding the problem of iron deficiency. You mention the popularity with iron supplements becoming popular but it also brings to light the problem with freely available isolated nutrients you can get literally anywhere some of which can cause serious problems(e.g. iron) when you pop them in your mouth without blood tests like its candy. The cost of free choice I suppose. Here in peatland the negative stance of natural red meats while simultaneously the more positive stance on processed sugars(cane sugar products) and just foods which are general empty calories is perplexing. That's my gripe. As you said, natural iron sources from food always have protections that pills dont, I like to think of it as a means of checks and balances found in nature.

 

[Insomnia]

Following a diet with minimal processed foods and balanced nutrients avoids the main issue of iron accumulation while avoiding the problem of iron deficiency. You mention the popularity with iron supplements becoming popular but it also brings to light the problem with freely available isolated nutrients you can get literally anywhere some of which can cause serious problems(e.g. iron) when you pop them in your mouth without blood tests like its candy. The cost of free choice I suppose. Here in peatland the negative stance of natural red meats while simultaneously the more positive stance on processed sugars(cane sugar products) and just foods which are general empty calories is perplexing. That's my gripe. As you said, natural iron sources from food always have protections that pills dont, I like to think of it as a means of checks and balances found in nature.

I started eating liver since 2 weeks ago. I ate it like 3 times now (chicken liver) and each meal was between 150-250 grams. I noticed immediate effects after eating it the first time. Stress was flowing out the body and I noticed less cortisol issues (waking up at night). I also felt warmer (more body heat I think). So I guess the iron is doing it's work but what's even more interesting is what happened to my skin. I got flaky skin as it was shedding and the very positive thing what happened was that for the first time in years (as long as I can remember since my teenager age), the bumps / ingrown hairs on my arms start the fade away. The keratosis pilaris on the back of my arms (this is the ONLY place where I have it consistently, I have no acne on any other parts of the body, everything else is quite smooth) like symptoms seems to fade away and my arms is less bumpy then it was 2-3 weeks ago, it's insane what liver did in that regard. I suspect it's perhaps the vitamin A content? I tried using vitamin A in the past and used aorund 35k iu weekly (just by supplementing), but I never really noticed improvements back then. I don't know why, but maybe the other fat-soluble vitamins were preventing the vitamin A from being absorbed or I was depleting it more then I needed to.

I still cannot say what improved the skin quality but even my face has become very smooth as of lately. I will definitely eat liver every now and then.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that I was always cautious when taking vitamin A but took higher doses of the other fat-solubles, because of the fear of inducing some sort of vitamin A toxicity but if I look at it now, even 5000IU doesn't seem to do the trick, because I get vitamin A from food also. I thought that people who are hypothyroid shouldn't go over 5000iu, but I find improvements from eating liver almost immediately.

Effects I noticed (to sum it up):

* More relaxed (systematic effects)
* Less cortisol issues (skin/ water retention)
* Skin is more smoother
* Keratosis pilars on arms has cleared up alot, though still needs a bit more improvement (<this effect was the most noticable because I've had bumps on the back of my arms for as long as I can remember, as well as ingrown hairs from time to time, especially around the shoulder area, a bit bumpy / acne like).
* Extreme vision changes, I still feel like I'm adjusting to it. I don't know whether this is for the good or bad. It does seem like I can see a bit more / better in the dark though.

A question aside: now that I think about it, it's actually quite weird that I have bumpy/acne symptoms only on the back of the arms / shoulders. You'd think it pop out everywhere, is there a reason / theory on why it (keratosis pilaris) appears on that area most of the time and not somewhere else (because skin is pretty good on other parts of the body as I have no acne / skin problems elsewhere?

 

[Douglas Ek]

I started eating liver since 2 weeks ago. I ate it like 3 times now (chicken liver) and each meal was between 150-250 grams. I noticed immediate effects after eating it the first time. Stress was flowing out the body and I noticed less cortisol issues (waking up at night). I also felt warmer (more body heat I think). So I guess the iron is doing it's work but what's even more interesting is what happened to my skin. I got flaky skin as it was shedding and the very positive thing what happened was that for the first time in years (as long as I can remember since my teenager age), the bumps / ingrown hairs on my arms start the fade away. The keratosis pilaris on the back of my arms (this is the ONLY place where I have it consistently, I have no acne on any other parts of the body, everything else is quite smooth) like symptoms seems to fade away and my arms is less bumpy then it was 2-3 weeks ago, it's insane what liver did in that regard. I suspect it's perhaps the vitamin A content? I tried using vitamin A in the past and used aorund 35k iu weekly (just by supplementing), but I never really noticed improvements back then. I don't know why, but maybe the other fat-soluble vitamins were preventing the vitamin A from being absorbed or I was depleting it more then I needed to.

I still cannot say what improved the skin quality but even my face has become very smooth as of lately. I will definitely eat liver every now and then.

Another thing I wanted to mention is that I was always cautious when taking vitamin A but took higher doses of the other fat-solubles, because of the fear of inducing some sort of vitamin A toxicity but if I look at it now, even 5000IU doesn't seem to do the trick, because I get vitamin A from food also. I thought that people who are hypothyroid shouldn't go over 5000iu, but I find improvements from eating liver almost immediately.

Effects I noticed (to sum it up):

* More relaxed (systematic effects)
* Less cortisol issues (skin/ water retention)
* Skin is more smoother
* Keratosis pilars on arms has cleared up alot, though still needs a bit more improvement (<this effect was the most noticable because I've had bumps on the back of my arms for as long as I can remember, as well as ingrown hairs from time to time, especially around the shoulder area, a bit bumpy / acne like).
* Extreme vision changes, I still feel like I'm adjusting to it. I don't know whether this is for the good or bad. It does seem like I can see a bit more / better in the dark though.

A question aside: now that I think about it, it's actually quite weird that I have bumpy/acne symptoms only on the back of the arms / shoulders. You'd think it pop out everywhere, is there a reason / theory on why it (keratosis pilaris) appears on that area most of the time and not somewhere else (because skin is pretty good on other parts of the body as I have no acne / skin problems elsewhere?

Could be the retinol. Could be the B-vitamins could be a combination. If you can choose other livers aswell since chicken is quite low copper. If you believe more iron done you good eating copper along with it should have a more synergestic effect. Or you could eat higher amounts of dark chocolate is high in copper. I never noticed any ill effects of high retinol intake. Theres evidence that retinol can be taken in huge amouns without toxicity building up. And the whole toxic is because of the polar bear liver but polar bear liver is very high in toxic metalls. Probably why it’s so high in retinol aswell some sort off defence mechanism. I believe its myth. Some people feel different though. Might be other factors to account for

 

[Insomnia]

Could be the retinol. Could be the B-vitamins could be a combination. If you can choose other livers aswell since chicken is quite low copper. If you believe more iron done you good eating copper along with it should have a more synergestic effect. Or you could eat higher amounts of dark chocolate is high in copper. I never noticed any ill effects of high retinol intake. Theres evidence that retinol can be taken in huge amouns without toxicity building up. And the whole toxic is because of the polar bear liver but polar bear liver is very high in toxic metalls. Probably why it’s so high in retinol aswell some sort off defence mechanism. I believe its myth. Some people feel different though. Might be other factors to account for

Thanks, I'll try copper with it and see if it has any boosting effects. My reason for restricting Vitamin A (or keeping it close to 5000IU) was that I was scared of overdosing and it somehow being damaging to the bones, that's why I was high on k2, e and d3 aswell. I think it's somewhat of a recipe for disaster now that I think of, because 5000IU simply wasn't enough. I also felt good getting sun in the summer but somehow also weird aches, as if I was missing. My guess on that (when I look back) is that I needed more A in the diet. Especially now that I keep improving when it comes to skin quality and the keratosis thingy. I just don't know how long I need to dose it higher (either by foods or supps) until I can settle back to a maintenance dose. The liver that I am eating is already giving me 35k IU of Vitamin A and that's what made the big difference. Now I also use retinil (topically) and get another 5000IU that way. I don't know how big the absorption rate is topically, I assume it's anywhere between 10-50%, or is that a wrong assumption. I might go for oral administration for awhile and see what it does.

Does anyone actually know what the absorption rate of topical (fat) vitamins may be? Thanks!

 

[Alex Jaramillo]

Ferritin can also increase under general inflammation that has nothing to do with iron overload - this could leave you thinking you're sufficient as ferritin levels look good when in fact you're deficient.

If infection or immune challenge are at the root of the inflammation then you won't solve it until restoring iron levels (conversely this might eventually show a slightly lower ferritin level). It plays a key role in our immune system and also helps uptake copper (and vice versa).

I have also been realising a few iron related things recently, as follows:

- eating lots of copper and b12 puts a higher burden on iron stores/requirements.
- taurine seems to deplete both iron and copper for me.
- with a high copper and zinc and b12 intake, iron is really ******* hard to restore without supplements or eating animal hearts. Also all ceruloplasmin cofactors including retinol seem to ask for more iron.

It's vitally important and I think people should feel changes very quickly if iron itself is the root when supplementing (I'm literally using iron enriched cereal!).

I feel that the paranoia and craze over iron toxicity stems from a western diet extremely deficient in copper and rich in iron fortification (uk and us). Hitting iron cofactors like b12, folate, copper should solve most, but iron intake is also extremely important.

The range at my lab is 36-169 ug/dl but mine is 117. Do you think optimizing it further would help? Maybe more T3 will be created in doing so. Also how do you supplement your iron/what brand and do you combine it with copper?

 

[sunraiser]

The range at my lab is 36-169 ug/dl but mine is 117. Do you think optimizing it further would help? Maybe more T3 will be created in doing so. Also how do you supplement your iron/what brand and do you combine it with copper?

I think you're probably fine. I just wanted to push back against the iron fears - I think iron and copper toxicity are often side effects of liver dysfunction (though perhaps symptomatic in their own rights) as opposed to root cause issues.

I had a period of eating iron enriched cereal that I perceived to be helping but I generally think foods, to craving, should suffice.

 

[Insomnia]

Hi everyone, I have a big update. I haven't used any supplement for approximately 8-9 months and started focusing more on diet before implementing supplements again. I did some bloodworks (more complete now) before starting on supplements again.

Some interesting changes I noticed:
* After cutting out grains even more then I previously already did, I upped my SUGAR intake and calories as a whole, I got more lean then ever and I was able to do so while having substantially more calory intake. I am now at 5.5% bodyfat and I actually enjoy more foods and I also crave more food. It's insane how much more food I eat. I started eating more while I was on 6.8-7% bodyfat and somehow dropped all the way to 5.5-5.6% (got measured). The funny thing is, previous measurement told me I had 5.6% bodyfat and I thought, why not eat more calories (in balance with proteins and fats) and see where it goes. I gained 0.5kg of muscle mass and dropped to 5.5% (fat mass was the same, it was the muscle mass that made the 0.1% change). Anyhow, drinking OJ (sometimes with milk) remedies alot of my "sudden loss in energy" problems and I notice I blast through workout sessions. I didn't use any supps during this period which I find even more flabbergasting.

I noticed that sugar just basically was a big game changer. I get better through the days while eating more sugar and have less cravings, especially after eating a meal with protein and fats I feel the coke is really giving me the saturated feeling.

So I don't rely on complex carbs (starches) as a reliable source of energy for my personal needs right now and see what I can do with "fast sugars" for now (note that I say personal needs). I feel sluggish on starches except for white rice and a couple of other foods.

I basically cut out grains, and because of that I could get in more food (so eating more and being more hungy, but not in a bad way because I felt I was giving my body what it was asking for) while previously I couldn't really saturate and always felt full (while feeling off and sluggish).

I DO EAT BREAD/GRAINS sometimes but just not as much. They do have their benefits so don't go crazy and cut out everything. I sometimes have troubles with my stool, which is a bit loose and I try to remedy that by carrots and bread.

Summary of what I eat and to make a long story short:
Things I eat and drink regulary are honey, good quality olive oil, milk, dates, grapes, good quality applejuice, eggs, (lamb) meat, coco pops (<guilty pleasure but it's rice covered in chocolate with no soy lecithins but I just started eating it for some reason as of 2 months now), chocolate, icecream. Occasionally I eat cheese aswell but not very much. The one thing I'd really wanna drop is the coco pops but yh that's just one thing I cannot keep my hands off as of now XD.

There are some other things I eat but these are the main things and the big change I made as of lately is cutting grains to a minimum and UPPING SUGAR SUBSTANTIALLY. I cannot stress how much this has done for me and I hope I don't overdo the sugar, but I just feel it feeding my muscles when I do a workout, never did I think I was underfed with sugar. In my next post I will post some labworks and a couple of concerns which I hope to get some help with or at least an explanation on what's happening hopefully.

 

[Insomnia]

Reserved post!

 

[Cirion]

Good deal man. There is a latest wave of anti-sugar posts going around here and your post is a voice of reason in the wilderness. Just the other day someone was trying to convince me that starch is better than sugar, despite the mountains of evidence Ray has posted to the contrary. I also don't totally avoid starch, but it doesnt' take much to push me into "too much starch" territory and sugar takes the main place in my diet daily to good effect also. Also nice that you use sugar as the main fuel even with working out, there's also a lot of myth going around the past week or two that you need starch if you lift weights. Sugar is also less fattening, your post precisely proves this. Impressive low bodyfat. I'm still excessively overweight, but sugar is the only macronutrient which doesn't fatten me further and is the only thing controlling my overweight-ness.

 

[Insomnia]

Good deal man. There is a latest wave of anti-sugar posts going around here and your post is a voice of reason in the wilderness. Just the other day someone was trying to convince me that starch is better than sugar, despite the mountains of evidence Ray has posted to the contrary. I also don't totally avoid starch, but it doesnt' take much to push me into "too much starch" territory and sugar takes the main place in my diet daily to good effect also. Also nice that you use sugar as the main fuel even with working out, there's also a lot of myth going around the past week or two that you need starch if you lift weights. Sugar is also less fattening, your post precisely proves this. Impressive low bodyfat. I'm still excessively overweight, but sugar is the only macronutrient which doesn't fatten me further and is the only thing controlling my overweight-ness.

You hit the nail on the head when I read: "also don't totally avoid starch, but it doesnt' take much to push me into "too much starch" territory and sugar takes the main place in my diet daily to good effect also "too much starch".

I went from not using sugar as a main fuel to using it as a main fuel and it made some drastic changes.

I have trained for years and I can tell when I look back to it, that I felt stressed out when skipping sugar. When I ate starchy meals afterwards (after training), I would still crave candy and sometimes eat a whole bag of it (and the funny thing is that even the candy contained starches, so it was like a 50/50 ratio of carbs/sugar). Only after eating heaps of candy I would feel a bit saturated. Now when I eat a protein/fat meal and drinking a coke afterwards I am saturated for hours without having that bad sort of "stress" craving. The coke tastes so good, I cannot describe that feeling. It's not just the coke but any sugary drink that goes with a certain meal feels satisfying (so it's not like I am addicted to coke, because the funny thing is I skipped coke for years until recently). I can't stop saying this but I thrive/crave sugar and it's not the uncontrollable desire. I just feel good when eating it. Last sunday I just did an intermittent fasting round after not doing it for approximately 3 months and I was very doable, and when I broke the fast with fresh dates the sugar taste was very satisfying.

I am still flabbergasted at how I dropped bodyfat and gained muscle mass when eating more (sugar) and calories.

Basically, when I get sugar I literally feel immediate effects and as of lately I don't feel that sleepy during normal daytimes because I have great amounts of energy left. One thing I also noticed is last week on wednesday, after working out, I ate a big meal. Prior going to bed I ate some icecream and drank some good quality applejuice (no concentrate) and I slept really well. When I woke up I was very refreshed. I don't want to make any claims of starches being the culprit or being bad, but I do know that sugar was a real game changer. For the first time in years, even when being at such a low bodyfat, I feel way better / more energetic and not sluggish as I used to be.

I still have those days where I am tired during midday or where I need to sleep for an hour but sugar is something my body just craves sometimes and I ignored it for wayy to long. Now I don't ignore it and feed whenever my body wants/signals me to (still hard to recognize it sometimes), but I usually go by taste. When I feel I need some carbs, I eat/drink it and usually it tastes very good. I also don't feel the bad kind of warmth, my body temperature has a nice warmth (not the stressy kind, I don't know if that makes sense) to it. When I run on stress hormones, I feel wack soon afterwards.

I was hoping to post it today but unfortunately I had something to do, so I will hopefully post my labworks tomorrow. My TSH dropped to 2.2 and if u look into my other threads, that's a new record (WHILE NOT USING ANY SUPP). Could the sugar have played a role in this? I had TSH of 6, 8 and 12 and I have them all on paper. How I got back to 2.2 is a mystery to me right now. I don't want to go overboard on supplements again but I will definitely give them a try again. The things that I have a concern about is regarding low iron levels, prolactin, progesterone and ldl cholesterol. I would really appreciate it if u can think with me or take a look at the results im posting tomorrow.

Had I not have the bad experience of last year december, I may not have even stumbled upon this. I am glad I experimented with eating more sugar and I will definitely continue to incorporate more sugary foods into the diet and see what it does, let's just say I am convinced!

One extra thingy that I also noticed is less hairloss but that statement is one I put into limbo for now as I am not 100% sure yet. It may simply be that I am less stressed or not running on stress hormones as I used to. Does anyone know whether sugar plays a role / has a mechanism in hairloss?

Thanks for tuning in btw!

 

[sunraiser]

Good deal man. There is a latest wave of anti-sugar posts going around here and your post is a voice of reason in the wilderness. Just the other day someone was trying to convince me that starch is better than sugar, despite the mountains of evidence Ray has posted to the contrary. I also don't totally avoid starch, but it doesnt' take much to push me into "too much starch" territory and sugar takes the main place in my diet daily to good effect also. Also nice that you use sugar as the main fuel even with working out, there's also a lot of myth going around the past week or two that you need starch if you lift weights. Sugar is also less fattening, your post precisely proves this. Impressive low bodyfat. I'm still excessively overweight, but sugar is the only macronutrient which doesn't fatten me further and is the only thing controlling my overweight-ness.

This is always a topic that interests me. Maybe it has to do with heritage or lineage?

I don't find large amounts of sugar appetising (though I do have some in chocolate or on cereal occasionally), but starches, often mixed with protein and some fat, are where I get my joy from eating. I have Northern and Southern European roots and both would be heavy eaters of wheat and other grains - it's entirely possible that plays a large part.

 

[Insomnia]

Here are my lab results

 

[Insomnia]

So in a nutshell: I haven't used supps for like 8 months and that's when I took this bloodtest (approximately 2 weeks ago).

* So I wonder, is prolactin high because I got the bloodwork done within 1 hour of waking up? I think it was like 30-45 minutes after I woke up.
* Iron is very low again and the transferrin saturation is also low. I never had these results, what do these tell me? I stopped supping iron btw back 7-8 months ago after I used it for a while.
* My ferrithin is a bit higher then previous labworks.


*So what I am really confused about is the LDL-Cholesterol. Is it because I consume more eggs as of lately? I cannot really pinpoint out what possibly could cause it to be above the range of what it should be.
* TSH dropped do 2.2 < this is a new record. I never had it so low in the last 2-3 years (most results were between 6 and 12)
* Progesterone shouldn't be above 0.5 and my results say 1.5, is this a concern (also what could a possibly cause be)

* One thing I am really worried about is prolactin, just like I mentioned before. I don't relief myself (haven't done it for at approximately a year), so no touching down there. How is it possible that prolactin is still that high? I don't have trouble getting an erection, in fact when women are around me and get close I get a boner (no other way of saying it) very easily because I haven't done / touched anything for the past months.

I am hoping someone could clarify/help me out here. I don't know what to think of all this, quite weird lab results to be honest...