Suspected "too Low Cortisol" And Iron Deficiency

[Douglas Ek]

I know I used Aspirin (like 5-6 months ago) but at a certain point I became nauseous (my doses were never over 100-200mg and I would do that once or twice a week). Why would such a reaction occur, because I was always taking it with K2. Is it possible that Aspirin also depletes the body from Iron? I don't know why I became nauseous when I tried it for a few times, I think it was around that time my first symptoms showed up when I think of it (not pointing my finger to Aspirin in particular) because I was trying out different supps and was on a protocol for quite a long time.

Hard to say whats happening with anti inflammatories like aspirin and vitamin E first of i think they can lower ferritin coz the can lower inflammation. This wouldnt mean lower iron but on top of that they are bloodthinners/anticoagulants which would cause excess loss of blood. You know you lose couple of ml of blood everyday through gut lining and the destruction of blood vessels as you walk on your feet. Exercise also causes micro bleeding. Aspirin and vitamin E increases that bleeding. Up to 20ml per day I read somwhere in the forum so 3 days of aspirin can equal the same amount as a vodka shot of blood being lost extra. So yes it can defo contribute long term. Dont even know if K2 is so active as coagulant. Think K1 is stronger as it’s the go to medication for rat poison/warfarin poisoning. K2 is more bone health and neurological functions

 

[Insomnia]

Hard to say whats happening with anti inflammatories like aspirin and vitamin E first of i think they can lower ferritin coz the can lower inflammation. This wouldnt mean lower iron but on top of that they are bloodthinners/anticoagulants which would cause excess loss of blood. You know you lose couple of ml of blood everyday through gut lining and the destruction of blood vessels as you walk on your feet. Exercise also causes micro bleeding. Aspirin and vitamin E increases that bleeding. Up to 20ml per day I read somwhere in the forum so 3 days of aspirin can equal the same amount as a vodka shot of blood being lost extra. So yes it can defo contribute long term. Dont even know if K2 is so active as coagulant. Think K1 is stronger as it’s the go to medication for rat poison/warfarin poisoning. K2 is more bone health and neurological functions

Wow, up to 20ml is actually quite alot. Imagine if u were a woman also, counting periods too. It never striked me that I had a possible iron deficiency because I am a man and I guess that’s where the danger lies, thinking that it was a low possibility.

Thank you once again for contributing to this topic! Really appreciate it!

 

[Douglas Ek]

I see copper is a stimulator of hemoglobin, I am thinking of just taking the iron.

Nice there pete how is your progress feeling better? You could defo try just taking iron by itself for a month and see if your symptoms dissappear. If you notice improvements in fatigue etc but not joint then you might be missing copper. Easier to distinguish whats working for you by only taking 1 supplement at a time and watch the effects. Usually supplements dont have any dramatic effect. But if you are deficient specially I noticed iron deficiency taking iron supplement even for 1-2 days people can notice results. Its amazing how powerful and important this mineral is for well being. Very sad people deny the fact that iron deficiency is common even though if you google ”most common nutrient deficiencies in the world” iron is number one more common than vitamin D, magnesium, zinc or anything else.

 

[Douglas Ek]

Wow, up to 20ml is actually quite alot. Imagine if u were a woman also, counting periods too. It never striked me that I had a possible iron deficiency because I am a man and I guess that’s where the danger lies, thinking that it was a low possibility.

Thank you once again for contributing to this topic! Really appreciate it!

Yes its hard because there’s so many different contributing factors to account for like diet, genetics, exercise intensity and health as in compromised immunity and metabolic disorders. The links that iron is contributor to diabetes and low testosterone is actually not always because of the high iron. Its because of the compromised antioxidant system because americans have ***t diets heavy in iron and low in antioxidants. Only if you have genetic problems with to much iron absorption you are at risk for these problems even though you might eating well. The only way to truly know though is by blood test first of all. I would never recommend anyone to just take iron blindly without bloods. Then after you know your iron status you can start experimenting with a supplement to see if you benefit which will be dramatically noticeable within a month if you where deficient.

 

[Insomnia]

@Douglas Ek @sunraiser

Thought you might be curious, bloodwork results came in today, I'll just write everything down but the things regarding Iron is what should be interesting. Also, I noticed testosterone has dropped a little bit (even though it was measured in the morning) any possible clarification for that (perhaps it may be due the fact that I fasted the day) before)? TSH also dropped by 0.5, from 4.0 to 3.5, I consider that's a good thing?

14-02-2019:

glucose 4.8 mmol/L limit is 7.8
hemoglobin A1c (IFCC) 33 mmol/mol range is 20 - 42
hemoglobin 9.4 mmol/L range is 8.5 - 11.0
MCV 89 fL range is 80-100
RDW 14% range is 11 - 15.2
leukocytes 6.3 /nl range is 4.0 - 10.0
TSH 3.5 miU/l range is 0.40 - 4.7
CRP <4 mg/L
25-OH Vitamin D 89 nmol/L minimum is 50

15-02-2019:

Iron 16 umol/l range is 15 - 30
Transferrin 2.4 g/l range is 2.0 - 4.1
Iron binding capacity 59 umol/l range is 45 - 80
Transferrin saturation 27% range is 20 - 55
Ferritin 66 ug/l range is 30-350
Testosterone 25 nmol/l range is 5.5 - 25 (25nmol/l = 771ng/dl)

I've had higher testosterone levels, I had one of 34.1 (which is 981ng/dl) but that was a long time ago. What could have effected this drop?

Cortisol new (measured at 9:15) 557 nmol/l

When I look everything related to Iron, most of it seems borderline. Even though I expected it a little, Ferritin didn't go up by much and still looks like I have some sort of deficiency.

 

[Douglas Ek]

@Douglas Ek @sunraiser

Thought you might be curious, bloodwork results came in today, I'll just write everything down but the things regarding Iron is what should be interesting. Also, I noticed testosterone has dropped a little bit (even though it was measured in the morning) any possible clarification for that (perhaps it may be due the fact that I fasted the day) before)? TSH also dropped by 0.5, from 4.0 to 3.5, I consider that's a good thing?

14-02-2019:

glucose 4.8 mmol/L limit is 7.8
hemoglobin A1c (IFCC) 33 mmol/mol range is 20 - 42
hemoglobin 9.4 mmol/L range is 8.5 - 11.0
MCV 89 fL range is 80-100
RDW 14% range is 11 - 15.2
leukocytes 6.3 /nl range is 4.0 - 10.0
TSH 3.5 miU/l range is 0.40 - 4.7
CRP <4 mg/L
25-OH Vitamin D 89 nmol/L minimum is 50

15-02-2019:

Iron 16 umol/l range is 15 - 30
Transferrin 2.4 g/l range is 2.0 - 4.1
Iron binding capacity 59 umol/l range is 45 - 80
Transferrin saturation 27% range is 20 - 55
Ferritin 66 ug/l range is 30-350
Testosterone 25 nmol/l range is 5.5 - 25 (25nmol/l = 771ng/dl)

I've had higher testosterone levels, I had one of 34.1 (which is 981ng/dl) but that was a long time ago. What could have effected this drop?

Cortisol new (measured at 9:15) 557 nmol/l

When I look everything related to Iron, most of it seems borderline. Even though I expected it a little, Ferritin didn't go up by much and still looks like I have some sort of deficiency.

Keep taking the iron. Iron helps you convert T4 to T3 which is stronger at lowering TSH. Have you tested prolactin? Its usually high in iron deficiency since lack of dopamine. But iron will fix that. The T level is still upper range and just a minor lowering. I suspect this to be the icrease in T3 helping you to convert more of your Testosterone into DHT. This happened to me when I was iron deficient my testosterone was above range but I still had symptoms of low T (low DHT) because of poor thyroid function. The Iron supplement fixed this and boosted my DHT I got much improved well being and for the first time in my life I started getting beard growth etc properly. I got from a little teenage mustach to now seeing a full growing beard with side burns forming in less than a year. And no more muscle fatigue and my muscles got harder and bigger. People are so wrong about iron deficiency here being something to strive for.
I think the fact iron increases dopamine and lowers prolactin is the reason why ome symptom of iron deficiency is hair loss. Because excess prolactin is actually responsible for hair loss

 

[Douglas Ek]

Iron Deficiency in Infancy Predicts Altered Serum Prolactin Response 10 Years Later

 

[sunraiser]

I would agree with what Douglas is saying in just sticking to the iron, for now. Adding more variables can make it extremely hard to distinguish what's working.

As long as you remember the iron is only working in the context of a balanced diet including copper etc, and also remember to be patient yet aware of your body from week to week as opposed to day to day, then you'll be well set to make and observe some progress!

There are perhaps variations in people and their ancestry that have higher and lower iron needs.

I have thought about the lowish iron content of foods and wondered about blood being a main food source of it in the past, which is entirely possible.

Maybe regularly eating offal might also be imbalancing if it's just liver and not heart / kidneys / other. Craving is a decent guide, though.

Also, remember iron should be a rate limiting factor on ceruloplasmin and copper metabolism in general. If you've been deficient for a while and/or stressed then it'll be rebuilding all the stores and systems associated with copper, alongside metabolic health in general. So your iron blood tests can't ever be the whole story.

So that means while you might feel small positives quickly, you have to give it a little time for the bigger changes as it's far more than just iron restoration that's happening.

I always try not to stay zealously tied to one idea (though some paradigms remain constant for me). Just to reassert that balance and patience are important to keep in mind (excuse my stating the obvious!)

 

[Insomnia]

Keep taking the iron. Iron helps you convert T4 to T3 which is stronger at lowering TSH. Have you tested prolactin? Its usually high in iron deficiency since lack of dopamine. But iron will fix that. The T level is still upper range and just a minor lowering. I suspect this to be the icrease in T3 helping you to convert more of your Testosterone into DHT. This happened to me when I was iron deficient my testosterone was above range but I still had symptoms of low T (low DHT) because of poor thyroid function. The Iron supplement fixed this and boosted my DHT I got much improved well being and for the first time in my life I started getting beard growth etc properly. I got from a little teenage mustach to now seeing a full growing beard with side burns forming in less than a year. And no more muscle fatigue and my muscles got harder and bigger. People are so wrong about iron deficiency here being something to strive for.
I think the fact iron increases dopamine and lowers prolactin is the reason why ome symptom of iron deficiency is hair loss. Because excess prolactin is actually responsible for hair loss

The Ray Peat forum isn’t working for me on pc but it is on mobile, very weird.

Anyhow,I actually wanted to bring up hairloss but you were ahead of me. Can iron deficiency result in hair having less shine, white hairs (beard also etc.). I supplemented copper back in the days and I got alot of color back but I somehow think iron defiency also plays a role in this.

I saw a difference in the gym already, my heartrate was already slow after a couple of days of supplementing and also they were less cold (extremities). My mother even asked me why my mouth area was a bit orange looking, thought I had eaten something probably then continued saying I was looking a bit orange on my cheek. While I don’t look really “orange” I suspect my bloodflow is a bit better, hence the pale look may have subsides a bit. Still don’t know for sure because it may aswell have been a total coincidence her mentioning it.

So if my T is a bit lower considering it turned a bit to DHT, could that also possibly explain the boost in libido (it’s a bit noticably different then it used to). Another thing I took was pregnenolone 2 days ago, but I will probably put that aside until I have experimented a bit more with iron. Iron consistenty has relieved the “shortness of breath” feeling and also the bodytemperature feels nice so far!

Thank you once again!

 

[Douglas Ek]

The Ray Peat forum isn’t working for me on pc but it is on mobile, very weird.

Anyhow,I actually wanted to bring up hairloss but you were ahead of me. Can iron deficiency result in hair having less shine, white hairs (beard also etc.). I supplemented copper back in the days and I got alot of color back but I somehow think iron defiency also plays a role in this.

I saw a difference in the gym already, my heartrate was already slow after a couple of days of supplementing and also they were less cold (extremities). My mother even asked me why my mouth area was a bit orange looking, thought I had eaten something probably then continued saying I was looking a bit orange on my cheek. While I don’t look really “orange” I suspect my bloodflow is a bit better, hence the pale look may have subsides a bit. Still don’t know for sure because it may aswell have been a total coincidence her mentioning it.

So if my T is a bit lower considering it turned a bit to DHT, could that also possibly explain the boost in libido (it’s a bit noticably different then it used to). Another thing I took was pregnenolone 2 days ago, but I will probably put that aside until I have experimented a bit more with iron. Iron consistenty has relieved the “shortness of breath” feeling and also the bodytemperature feels nice so far!

Thank you once again!

Yes if your iron deficient and you restore iron you will lower prolactin (hair loss will stop) increase thyroid (energy and heat goes up) and more DHT from T (better libido) you probably had lower than average DHT because of irons effect on your thyroid.
I would like to highlight this story that low iron is not for everyone. Some people just have a low iron absorption and some people have high iron absorption. This results in some people need to donate blood to get the good effects and some people cant donate blood and even tend to need iron supplements from time to time to keep their levels from crashing.

 

[Douglas Ek]

The Ray Peat forum isn’t working for me on pc but it is on mobile, very weird.

Anyhow,I actually wanted to bring up hairloss but you were ahead of me. Can iron deficiency result in hair having less shine, white hairs (beard also etc.). I supplemented copper back in the days and I got alot of color back but I somehow think iron defiency also plays a role in this.

I saw a difference in the gym already, my heartrate was already slow after a couple of days of supplementing and also they were less cold (extremities). My mother even asked me why my mouth area was a bit orange looking, thought I had eaten something probably then continued saying I was looking a bit orange on my cheek. While I don’t look really “orange” I suspect my bloodflow is a bit better, hence the pale look may have subsides a bit. Still don’t know for sure because it may aswell have been a total coincidence her mentioning it.

So if my T is a bit lower considering it turned a bit to DHT, could that also possibly explain the boost in libido (it’s a bit noticably different then it used to). Another thing I took was pregnenolone 2 days ago, but I will probably put that aside until I have experimented a bit more with iron. Iron consistenty has relieved the “shortness of breath” feeling and also the bodytemperature feels nice so far!

Thank you once again!

Once again wanna show this to @Cirion @tankasnowgod low iron obviously doesnt work for everyone

 

[Insomnia]

I would agree with what Douglas is saying in just sticking to the iron, for now. Adding more variables can make it extremely hard to distinguish what's working.

As long as you remember the iron is only working in the context of a balanced diet including copper etc, and also remember to be patient yet aware of your body from week to week as opposed to day to day, then you'll be well set to make and observe some progress!

There are perhaps variations in people and their ancestry that have higher and lower iron needs.

I have thought about the lowish iron content of foods and wondered about blood being a main food source of it in the past, which is entirely possible.

Maybe regularly eating offal might also be imbalancing if it's just liver and not heart / kidneys / other. Craving is a decent guide, though.

Also, remember iron should be a rate limiting factor on ceruloplasmin and copper metabolism in general. If you've been deficient for a while and/or stressed then it'll be rebuilding all the stores and systems associated with copper, alongside metabolic health in general. So your iron blood tests can't ever be the whole story.

So that means while you might feel small positives quickly, you have to give it a little time for the bigger changes as it's far more than just iron restoration that's happening.

I always try not to stay zealously tied to one idea (though some paradigms remain constant for me). Just to reassert that balance and patience are important to keep in mind (excuse my stating the obvious!)

That’s actually a really good idea, I will stick to using just only Iron for now as that would make it more obvious in pointing out what is possibly giving what results.

Also, I should indeed take into account that there are other possibilities too. I sometimes really want to believe it just has one cause, which is a bit stupid now that I think of it, because everything is connected and the issue may have multiple roots.

 

[Insomnia]

Yes if your iron deficient and you restore iron you will lower prolactin (hair loss will stop) increase thyroid (energy and heat goes up) and more DHT from T (better libido) you probably had lower than average DHT because of irons effect on your thyroid.
I would like to highlight this story that low iron is not for everyone. Some people just have a low iron absorption and some people have high iron absorption. This results in some people need to donate blood to get the good effects and some people cant donate blood and even tend to need iron supplements from time to time to keep their levels from crashing.

It’s really frightening if you look what one mineral can do when it comes to health. Imagine having multiple deficiencies (or too much/high levels) of minerals/vitamins etc and what kind of havoc that would wreck on someone, that could only be worse then having one I suppose.

I will focus on iron for now. If I notice/see any other improvements, I will post it here.


Thanks

 

[Douglas Ek]

That’s actually a really good idea, I will stick to using just only Iron for now as that would make it more obvious in pointing out what is possibly giving what results.

Also, I should indeed take into account that there are other possibilities too. I sometimes really want to believe it just has one cause, which is a bit stupid now that I think of it, because everything is connected and the issue may have multiple roots.

Yes for sure but in your case since you’ve seen such dramatic and fast improvements from taking iron I’m pretty sure that it is the cause of your symptoms and lab results

 

[tankasnowgod]

@Douglas Ek @sunraiser

Thought you might be curious, bloodwork results came in today, I'll just write everything down but the things regarding Iron is what should be interesting. Also, I noticed testosterone has dropped a little bit (even though it was measured in the morning) any possible clarification for that (perhaps it may be due the fact that I fasted the day) before)? TSH also dropped by 0.5, from 4.0 to 3.5, I consider that's a good thing?

14-02-2019:

glucose 4.8 mmol/L limit is 7.8
hemoglobin A1c (IFCC) 33 mmol/mol range is 20 - 42
hemoglobin 9.4 mmol/L range is 8.5 - 11.0
MCV 89 fL range is 80-100
RDW 14% range is 11 - 15.2
leukocytes 6.3 /nl range is 4.0 - 10.0
TSH 3.5 miU/l range is 0.40 - 4.7
CRP <4 mg/L
25-OH Vitamin D 89 nmol/L minimum is 50

15-02-2019:

Iron 16 umol/l range is 15 - 30
Transferrin 2.4 g/l range is 2.0 - 4.1
Iron binding capacity 59 umol/l range is 45 - 80
Transferrin saturation 27% range is 20 - 55
Ferritin 66 ug/l range is 30-350
Testosterone 25 nmol/l range is 5.5 - 25 (25nmol/l = 771ng/dl)

I've had higher testosterone levels, I had one of 34.1 (which is 981ng/dl) but that was a long time ago. What could have effected this drop?

Cortisol new (measured at 9:15) 557 nmol/l

When I look everything related to Iron, most of it seems borderline. Even though I expected it a little, Ferritin didn't go up by much and still looks like I have some sort of deficiency.

Well, I'm not exactly sure why you think you have iron deficiency, as literally every iron related marker you have posted here has been within the lab range, and most have not been borderline. But, if you do suspect that, the very first thing you should do is stop shedding blood. You mentioned you were doing some wet cupping sessions. Why? I've looked at that, and not sure I understand the potential benefits. But if you think you are low in iron for any reason, the first thing you should do is STOP BLEEDING.

Literally any loss of blood will lower your overall iron stores. So, if you are doing a lot of blood tests, this will have an effect over time as well.

Why are you doing wet cupping? Why that as opposed to regular blood donation? Nothing about that process looks pleasant to me.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Once again wanna show this to @Cirion @tankasnowgod low iron obviously doesnt work for everyone

I saw this thread earlier, and stayed away as soon as I saw "wet cupping." I don't know much about it, beyond the fact that you lose blood during the process, and it looks painful.

 

[Insomnia]

Well, I had this shoulder issue for years. I guess it got traumatized during sports when I was a bit younger (can't recall how it happened but I used to kickboks alot in my younger years). So that's when I got cupping done locally and on other parts. I think I overdid on the cupping (i.e. too much in too short amount of time) and last october, in 2018, is when I started getting symptoms. It was couple of weeks after the cupping session. It all does make sense if u ask me, because I was dizzy and vertigo in the first weeks of november (which all seems related to not getting enough oxygen in the system). I also was out of breath very quickly. Even when I went on vocation I was still having these symptoms of being extremely tired and not well rested when I woke up. Because I had thyroid issues in the past, I was thinking it had to do something with that but I was experiencing the tiredness in a different way then I was used to.

Wetcupping is definitely not painful and has alot of benefits. Alot of dead blood/waste is under the skin and this is what's removed mainly. I've seen very very disgusting blood coming out, jelly like. I am not even kidding, after removing the cup with the blood in it (was a bit purple/black like) and putting it upside down, it didn't fall out. This was all stagnation that was removed from the body. I've not seen much disgusting things in my life, but that jelly looked like it was some sort of pudding. It just didn't flow and that also convinced me that is was just deadcells underneath the skin and not "live flowing bood". The first cup did have a little bit of flowing blood, but once the 2nd and 3rd cup came from the same area, that's when the disgusting stuff came out.

Studies also show that it does remove heavy-metals from the body. Iron also get's removed from what I understand. That's why I supped iron but it was very low-dosed and not even for that long. I think it was neglible, because the Iron I supped was only done for a couple of days. Compare that to the amount of blood I lost is actually a tiny amount of Iron that I got back by supping it. I think I took it for a maximum of 5-10 days at a very low dose. That's perhaps why I didn't notice symptoms right away I guess.

The first time I did wetcupping in my life was probably the one that gave me an extreme amount of relief and I was literally "zen" for the first couple of days. There are sources say that up to 70% of all diseases are a consequence of stagnation in the body and wetcupping is somewhat of a mini-surgery without cutting someone open. Toxins/bad blood get drawn out of the skin (not of the arteries) I quote: "it pulls toxins, pathogenic factors, blood poison, dead lymph and cellular debris from deep within the tissues to the surface".

Your body detoxes by practicing cupping and it shouldn't be done every month or anything crazy, because blood is actually very valuable and it requires alot of energy to make new bloodcells. That's why it's usually recommended doing it once a year. By removing toxins, it effectively removes acidity within the body and leaves the body in a more alkaline state. Wetcupping isn't just done on every point, usually it's done on certain trigger points or the most effective ones (on the back).

If you do wetcupping (because of iron-overload) make sure to check your new blood levels and certain symptoms. I suspect mines got too low because I am a young male and probably did it too much or didn't give the body the proper nutrition it needed afterwards, leaving me in an iron-deficient state. I'd do it again in the future, but I definitely would watch out for an induced iron deficiency.

 

[Insomnia]

One thing on a sidenote, this is just an assumption as I am not a medical expert in any way. I think that the bad-blood contains the "iron storage" that is accountable for alot of the problems. It's iron that doesn't do much and sits trapped/stagnated with the bad blood that sits between the skin and vein inside the body and I think that's possibly playing a role also. I can't know for sure actually, but I was just throwing out some ideas.

 

[redsun]

One thing on a sidenote, this is just an assumption as I am not a medical expert in any way. I think that the bad-blood contains the "iron storage" that is accountable for alot of the problems. It's iron that doesn't do much and sits trapped/stagnated with the bad blood and I think that's possibly playing a role also. I can know for sure actually, because what I just said may sound like bro-science but I was just throwing out some ideas.

Iron doesn't do much and stagnates. Huh... so I guess carrying oxygen to every cell in the body isn't really much after all? Every cell needs iron, period. Its not even possible to overstate the important of iron in human physiology.

Your body stores iron because it needs to, adequate ferritin is important for thyroid function(not too mention so many other things) low iron stores tell your body to slow the use of iron to keep itself alive. You dont want slowdown because of nutrient deficiencies. This goes for iron, and zinc, and every nutrient humans need.

Its easy to point fingers at iron and phosphorus when most people diet's are lacking in every other mineral. Vitamins and minerals work in conjuction and balance each other out, without balance any mineral is dangerous to humans. As for vitamins, many diets lack adequate B vitamins based on carb intake, Fat-soluble vitamins, or Vitamin C.

As for wet cupping... unproven therapy that the human body has no need for.

 

[tankasnowgod]

One thing on a sidenote, this is just an assumption as I am not a medical expert in any way. I think that the bad-blood contains the "iron storage" that is accountable for alot of the problems. It's iron that doesn't do much and sits trapped/stagnated with the bad blood and I think that's possibly playing a role also. I can know for sure actually, because what I just said may sound like bro-science but I was just throwing out some ideas.

It's the removal of Red Blood cells in blood that lowers body iron stores. I've seen this stressed over and over, that those with serious hemochromatosis, ferritin far over 1,000, their blood doesn't contain any more iron than the blood of someone with normal or even low iron stores. This is backed up with the fact that double red cell apherisis will lower iron stores twice as fast as regular blood donation. Excess iron can be stored in various places throughout the body (vital organs, skin, and such), but the iron level of blood remainns pretty constant.