Survival Of The Smartest [schwarzbein Vs. Peat]

[Nicholas]

This woman takes Ray Peat concepts to the *practical* level. I will be frank that the Ray Peat community is very flawed in its approach to healing or using Ray Peat's information to treat problems. Ray Peat's approach is also often very flawed as evidenced in the many e-mail correspondences that people have collected. I wrote a post ("Our First Love") a while back that was met with a lot of criticism and condescension, and am happy to see that my absence of scientific studies or sounding science-y is being supported by this super science-y person. "I don't have a study, i have the science." - Dr Diana Schwarzbein

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qUSvzUj6jo

 

[Nicholas]

Lowering any of the stress hormones is not treating a cause. A lot of people believe that lowering a stress hormone is somehow different than taking medications which treat symptoms. The truth is that a stress hormone imbalance is a symptom of an energy deficit. Ray Peat believes this, and everyone here seems to believe that - but the advice and practicals that are prescribed both by Peat and many peatarian responders completely contradicts this view of the body.

 

[Nicholas]

[moderator edit: topics merged]

The Practical Ray Peat: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qUSvzUj6jo

for those desiring to transfer Peat's writings into a healing practice.

 

[Makrosky]

post 115095 Lowering any of the stress hormones is not treating a cause. A lot of people believe that lowering a stress hormone is somehow different than taking medications which treat symptoms. The truth is that a stress hormone imbalance is a symptom of an energy deficit. Ray Peat believes this, and everyone here seems to believe that - but the advice and practicals that are prescribed both by Peat and many peatarian responders completely contradicts this view of the body.

Just like applying Ray Peat ideas is not a matter of picking up a single article and guzzle down thyroid pills, applying the advice given on this ofrum is not a matter of reading a single thread and start guzzling down cyproheptadine. If you careful read all the related topics you can make a general idea. I think it's been said many times that if you lower your stress or serotonin without increasing metabolic energy, you're wasting your time.

That's my impression.

Btw the videos are long. Could you please tell us something more about it ? What does she talk about, in more detail.

 

[Giraffe]

post 115091 This woman takes Ray Peat concepts to the *practical* level. I will be frank that the Ray Peat community is very flawed in its approach to healing or using Ray Peat's information to treat problems. Ray Peat's approach is also often very flawed as evidenced in the many e-mail correspondences that people have collected.

Your bold accusations are so unspecific that they are not verifiable.

What this lady says in the video could be said in five minutes:

Don't skip breakfast. Don't start the day with coffee; fill up with food first. Don't eat on the run, sit down to eat. When you are stressed, digestion does not function properly, so partly undigested food will raise endotoxin. Paleo (low-carb) is not healthy. To wake up in the middle of the night to pee is not normal. Growth hormone is not as good as you may think. Cortisol and adrenaline are needed to survive in a crisis, but you don't want to run on these stress hormones permanently.

If you think that this is "a desperately needed ointment for this forum" as you put it in the chat, you have neither read in the forum nor Ray Peat's work.

post 115216 When my post yesterday was DELETED, yes i became quite angry.

Only your double-post has been deleted. I had merged the first post with this other topic of yours you mentioned above. You know this, and you knew this yesterday!

post 115091 I wrote a post ("Our First Love") a while back that was met with a lot of criticism and condescension, and am happy to see that my absence of scientific studies or sounding science-y is being supported by this super science-y person. "I don't have a study, i have the science." - Dr Diana Schwarzbein

They are saying that there are plenty of studies and experiments in biochemistry, but they do not have double-blind placebo controlled studies.

 

[Nicholas]

post 115297 Don't skip breakfast. Don't start the day with coffee; fill up with food first. Don't eat on the run, sit down to eat. When you are stressed, digestion does not function properly, so partly undigested food will raise endotoxin. Paleo (low-carb) is not healthy. To wake up in the middle of the night to pee is not normal. Growth hormone is not as good as you may think. Cortisol and adrenaline are needed to survive in a crisis, but you don't want to run on these stress hormones permanently.

If you think that this is "a desperately needed ointment for this forum" as you put it in the chat, you have neither read in the forum nor Ray Peat's work.

it upsets me that those who will not watch the video will use your surface-level and protocol-obssessed analysis of the video to conclude what the video is about. i have already written numerous responses over the past couple days which should make clear the message of the videos for those who don't understand it. Of course i don't think your analysis of the video is a desperately needed ointment for the forum. It is amazing to me how you have proven my point that her two part lecture covers all the information that we generally agree on here, but the missing element is what does all of this mean. The "what does all of this mean" is the whole point of her lecture and it is what you did not perceive and what most do not perceive from these bullet points you listed. I will copy and paste here what i wrote on a different post to express the true meaning of the 2 part lecture:

"every situation begs the same treatment as far as treating the cells and not the symptom/condition. I'm saying that the across-the-board treatment is giving your cells what they need, not looking at biomarkers or hormones. When we meet the demands of our particular body we are regulating our hormone system. We don't regulate our hormones to meet the demands of our body. This is the popular view, which is synonymous with treating symptoms. Everyone's CELLS are what will have particular person-specific demands. It is not the condition/symptoms which create the particular demands. If we believe that we can regulate hormones in isolation or address conditions alone, then we do not have a biochemical understanding of the body. Dr. Schwarzbein recognizes that cellular healing (aka giving them what they need) is not always possible if you have missing hormones. I would also add that in some situations, very specific interventions to "lower this" or "lower that" or "attack that" is absolutely necessary initially to keep someone alive or address a very aggressive life-threatening problem.

when someone has developed a condition and needs help getting out of it, they HAVE to understand this. they have to understand that their life experience/choices are what has created the problem. the proper way to educate and help people is not to teach them treatments or teach them about dysfunction or look at their labwork and recommend diet changes or supplements to counteract a hormone, the proper way is to teach them what i have written above, which is the same thing as teaching them how we FUNCTION. None of us understand even 1% of a person's life story and what has led to their current condition or what things they are not sharing or think they are doing right. In this forum, it's probably more appropriate to help along the lines of asking questions, really trying to understand someone's story. Recommendations should be focused on encouraging the individual to assess whether they are meeting the demands of their body....as Dr. Schwarzbein says, "building more than using." Tara is really great about doing this - not quick to jump to conclusions, asking a lot of questions, and always recommending very basic changes. The truth is that our problems are usually from very basic choices we make."

 

[Nicholas]

[moderator edit: moved from https://raypeatforum.com/forums/threads/ray-peat-on-the-stress-of-ketogenic-diets.9232/#post-119954]

"Breaking down feels really really good" - Dr. Diana Schwarzbein (paraphrased)

 

[Tarmander]

"Breaking down feels really really good" - Dr. Diana Schwarzbein (paraphrased)

Where did you read this Nick? I really like that quote

also...I like your avatar...the diabeetus patron saint

 

[Nicholas]

Where did you read this Nick? I really like that quote

also...I like your avatar...the diabeetus patron saint

thanks...the quote i heard in her 2 part video available on youtube called, "Survival of the Smartest" - she gave the lecture with the same people that hosted Peat years earlier, i believe. i liked kinecticz(sp?) summation of his brand of a "ketogenic diet" where carbs are used skillfully. his thread is actually not arguing for being in a ketogenic state. some people's balance requirements could cause "ketogenesis" in a different individual with different balance requirements. the problem is ALWAYS when we begin to view things through the lense of diet protocols. (i.e. the ketogenic diet). There are always positives and negatives to any diet protocol, be it paleo, ketogenic, fruitarian, etc.

 

[Nicholas]

sorry mods, thanks for filing this discussion into a more appropriate thread.

 

[Tarmander]

I will check out the videos and let you know, they look really good. Most of what you are talking about boils down to people misunderstanding what this forum offers, and what Ray's ideas offer. They are not answers, just pointers in where you should be experimenting. What does that really make up of the total picture? 15%? Maybe a little less or more? I love this forum and all the great ideas it has given me, but it never told me about how different it feels to drink Caffeine on a day where I am laying around in the sun verse driving around working. It never told me that Niacinamide is sometimes great for helping fall asleep, but sometimes actually ABYSMAL by increasing sex drive. I could go on and on about things I have discovered. And sure, sometimes it is written on here about these experiential things, but you will never know where that line lies until you actually do it.

That is why when people make posts saying "could Ray be wrong about XYZ," or "I am having a totally different experience then XYZ," I kind of have to laugh. They just do not understand where these ideas lie in the big picture. They are such a small part of what you have to go through and experience. I could probably take every substance on this forum, and describe a way in which it could be used that would be massively harmful. Not only that, I am guessing that many people here are on the level where these substances WILL cause harm. I have been reading this forum for over a year and I just started experimenting with Caffeine at the end of November...and Ray calls Caffeine a vitamin! This is not a place for people who are afraid of sharp things.

 

[DaveFoster]

Lowering any of the stress hormones is not treating a cause.

What would the "cause?" Energy deficit? If you lower hormones that hamper cellular metabolism and simultaneously increase your ability to take in nutrients and calories without puking, you're going to improve the energy output of your mitochondria.

You can work from the bottom up, and that's why T3 works well. As Peat says, metabolic rate is the umbrella term that ensures the health of the organism, but you can also work from both ends; both from the ground up with nutritious food and metabolic uncouplers, and also from the top down with substances that remove the barriers to cellular respiration, such as cyproheptadine, niacinamide, and other drugs that oppose estrogen, nitric oxide, and histamine.

 

[Tarmander]

I really liked the video. I watched both parts and she had some great stuff to say. I loved the tid bit at the end where she said that insulin resistance takes about seven years to resolve in her experience. She has 25 years of clinical experience, so I think her opinion should definitely be listened to. Obviously, some of the stuff she said is very anti Peat. She was all for nitric oxide, down on Caffeine, down on sugar. I really liked her simple building and using analogy for the metabolism (catabolism/anabolism).

I think, and maybe this is given her audience that she was talking to, that she did not really get into the nuance of those two systems. For example Caffeine, which is definitely under the "use" column in the short term, actually enhances the building function long term. She spent a few minutes really downing Caffeine and how it raises adrenaline and all that. All true of course. But looking at it long term you get a different story.

Anyways, loved it for the good tid bits in there. Great video on why low carb and keto are so harmful. It was one of those videos where she would explain something, and you would think to yourself; "yeah...I know that...but that is a really great way of putting it."

 

[Nicholas]

What would the "cause?" Energy deficit? If you lower hormones that hamper cellular metabolism and simultaneously increase your ability to take in nutrients and calories without puking, you're going to improve the energy output of your mitochondria.

You can work from the bottom up, and that's why T3 works well. As Peat says, metabolic rate is the umbrella term that ensures the health of the organism, but you can also work from both ends; both from the ground up with nutritious food and metabolic uncouplers, and also from the top down with substances that remove the barriers to cellular respiration, such as cyproheptadine, niacinamide, and other drugs that oppose estrogen, nitric oxide, and histamine.

thanks for asking. from the way i perceive things, "nutritious food" is not the way you heal/normalize/stabilize metabolism. as far as regarding the "ground up" direction. Schwarzbein recognizes that the "ground up" approach is meeting the demands of a particular body's context. This is at least ten different variables, including variables within diet. It really is a kind of science working from the ground up. I said that lowering any stress hormone is not treating the cause because that stress hormone didn't raise out of thin air. A serotonin imbalance is not from a Cyproheptadine deficiency and probably not a Lysine deficiency. It is biochemically incorrect to describe hormones as being high or low....the only biochemically accurate way of viewing hormones is in balance or out of balance. Metabolism is a balancing machine. A serotonin or cortisol problem (as an example) is almost always related to an imbalance of the entire organism. As you know nothing happens in a vacuum. When you accidentally hammer your thumb it really does affect your ear (i'm not that great with analogies). So yes, energy deficit is one variable or cause that one may have to address in balancing the entire organism. When the body is viewed as a giant organism, systems within systems - everything intimately connected via hormones, etc. then you can build up the entire body. When you build up the entire body, you build up every system. When you build up the entire body, you indirectly provide the environment for hormones to balance. You don't have to really monitor hormones or systems.

Using uncouplers, etc. is not a "bad" thing, it's just not usually an approach that is in tandem with a biochemically accurate perspective on the way the body works. It's a complex topic. From my perspective, when i get sucked into the world of manipulating bodily function via various substances is when i get sucked away into forgetting the way the body works. I term this in a post from a while back as leaving our first love. Whenever i lose track of the way the body works, i inevitably begin enduring confusion about my body and an anxiety of control. I lose the inherent peace that exists in true biochemistry. When i've left my first love, i begin to think that i know what's wrong with me on a deep level, i pretend that i can tell i'm low in this or that (sometimes accurately, sure). *For me* the supplemental route never ends pretty. It never brings me closer to the truth. Further, and probably the biggest, when i start using various supplements/etc. i become a scientist....i *have* to become a scientist, or pretend to be one, to juggle all of the supplements. When i focus, instead, on the way the body works i feel i learn the most (ironically)....i have a deep-seated confidence about the process (which is really an acceptance that our bodies were designed to support us and do a lot of the work on its own that we think we have to do for it.)

it's a topic that's very complex and could go on much longer, but i will leave it there for now and for what it's worth.

 

[Nicholas]

I really liked the video. I watched both parts and she had some great stuff to say. I loved the tid bit at the end where she said that insulin resistance takes about seven years to resolve in her experience. She has 25 years of clinical experience, so I think her opinion should definitely be listened to. Obviously, some of the stuff she said is very anti Peat. She was all for nitric oxide, down on Caffeine, down on sugar. I really liked her simple building and using analogy for the metabolism (catabolism/anabolism).

I think, and maybe this is given her audience that she was talking to, that she did not really get into the nuance of those two systems. For example Caffeine, which is definitely under the "use" column in the short term, actually enhances the building function long term. She spent a few minutes really downing Caffeine and how it raises adrenaline and all that. All true of course. But looking at it long term you get a different story.

Anyways, loved it for the good tid bits in there. Great video on why low carb and keto are so harmful. It was one of those videos where she would explain something, and you would think to yourself; "yeah...I know that...but that is a really great way of putting it."

i especially enjoyed how she showed the distinction between science and studies.

 

[halken]

Survival of the smartest, indeed...

http://www.ncahf.org/digest15/15-50.html

 

[tara]

I could probably take every substance on this forum, and describe a way in which it could be used that would be massively harmful.

Yeah. And some people might do them all and then say Peating didn't work for them.

I loved the tid bit at the end where she said that insulin resistance takes about seven years to resolve in her experience.

Interesting. Some people seem to have much improved their sugar handling in a much shorter time - I guess it depends on how much damage there is, and how well one supports recovery.

 

[ecstatichamster]

Survival of the smartest, indeed...

http://www.ncahf.org/digest15/15-50.html

This is more a feather in her cap. Going against the standard of care is admirable.

 

[scarlettsmum]

[moderator edit: post moved]

I'm sorry, I am so far behind people on this forum so I ask a lots of silly questions. I am just curious what people on here think about Dr. Schwarzbein. Sort of Swarzbein vs. Peat? I just looked at her books and the free amazon preview in one of her cookbooks and I saw that she doesn't add salt to her recipes (clearly states being against salt) and there are other things as well...I am guessing since it has been first published in 1999 she might have changed her mind since then, although the 2010 reprint still says the same (at least in the amazon preview it does). Have you all or any of you read her books, what conclusions did you draw and how do you compare her views with those of Peat?

 

[Xisca]

Ho, no answer!
I would love to know why she is against salt!