Supplementing Chelated Calcium after exercise?

[jellog]

I have a calcium supplement that contains a 2:1 calcium to magnesium ratio with Calcium Citrate and Magnesium Citrate / Oxide. Is this an ideal form (and more importantly, a safe form) to use on days when I'm out of dairy and leafy greens / bony fish aren't supplying much Ca that day? I can often scoot by on around 750mg from dairy, but on some days without supplementation, I would be looking at something like 800mg of phosphorus to <300mg of calcium. My daily phosphorus intake is often around a gram or less, and very rarely slightly over 1.2g.

I've read that calcium carbonate (eg. eggshells) is poorly absorbed and might present a potential atherosclerosis risk? I've also read that atherosclerosis might be a concern with calcium supplementation in general, or with inflammation. I usually eat after exercising, where I believe weight lifting is itself inflammatory -- is this a bad time to be supplementing calcium?

 

[tara]

I'm not sure about calcium citrate one way or the other.
Peat usually recommends clean egg shell or oystershell for supplements, if dairy and greens etc are not supplying enough. I think he has suggested getting at least 1200mg calcium/day, and maybe 2000 would be better. Ca:Ph ratio of 1:1 - 2:1, maybe 1.5 ideally. I think calcium carbonate from eggshells and oystershells is likely to be somewhat alkalinising. Not sure if citrate form has that effect. (I expect that whether alkalinising is helpful or not depends on your current state.)
I think Peat has said that calcium carbonate has low solubility, but because it has a long time to be absorbed as it goes through the gut, you get enough out of it to be useful.
Adding calcium to meals that contain iron can apparently reduce iron. So depending on whether your iron stores are high or low, you might add or avoid supplemental calcium with such meals. Peat writes about the hazards of excess iron, and some here try to avoid getting too much of it.

 

[Mittir]

I've read that calcium carbonate (eg. eggshells) is poorly absorbed and might present a potential atherosclerosis risk? I've also read that atherosclerosis might be a concern with calcium supplementation in general, or with inflammation. I usually eat after exercising, where I believe weight lifting is itself inflammatory -- is this a bad time to be supplementing calcium?

Main purpose of calcium intake is to suppress PTH. Calcium to phosphorus ratio, magnesium,
vitamin D, Vitamin K, fructose all play role in suppressing PTH. If one is worried about
danger of calcium supplement then it is better to focus on minimal amount of calcium
along with other substances to lower PTH. Low calcium intake can increase PTH and PTH
will cause calcification of soft tissues and causing atherosclerosis. PTH also lowers metabolism
and RP thinks calcium's ability to suppress PTH causes weight loss. There is a "calcium paradox"
where people have high serum level of calcium with low calcium intake.

Calcium carbonate is used as phosphate binder. I do not know how effective calcium citrate is
at binding phosphorus. Citric acid and calcium citrate both increase secretion of calcium
through kidney even though calcium citrate has higher absorption rate than calcium carbonate.
Calcium citrate is not a bad calcium supplement but calcium carbonate seems better.

RP recommends epsom salt bath for magnesium and he thinks most magnesium supplements are allergenic.

I think studies showing calcium supplement causing atherosclerosis are poorly designed.
Here is a link to a randomized control trial using calcium carbonate

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20614474

Abstract

Send to:
J Bone Miner Res. 2011 Jan;26(1):35-41. doi: 10.1002/jbmr.176.
Calcium supplementation and the risks of atherosclerotic vascular disease in older women: results of a 5-year RCT and a 4.5-year follow-up.
Lewis JR1, Calver J, Zhu K, Flicker L, Prince RL.
Author information
Abstract

Concern has been expressed that calcium supplementation, a key intervention for preventing osteoporotic fracture in older women, may increase the risk of atherosclerotic vascular disease. To evaluate the risk further, an examination of complete verified atherosclerotic vascular hospitalization and mortality data from a 5-year randomized, controlled trial (RCT) of calcium carbonate and 4.5 years of posttrial follow-up was undertaken. This study used data from a published 5-year randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled trial [Calcium Intake Fracture Outcome Study (CAIFOS)]. The participants were 1460 women aged 75.1 ± 2.7 years at baseline (1998) recruited from the general population and randomized to receive 1200 mg of calcium carbonate daily or an identical placebo. All hospital admission and deaths during the 5-year study and the 4.5-year follow-up were derived from the Western Australian Data Linkage Service (WADLS). Hazard ratios (HRs) for the combined endpoint of atherosclerotic vascular mortality or first hospitalization were calculated using prespecified intention-to-treat and per-protocol models. The intervention group that received calcium supplementation did not have a higher risk of death or first-time hospitalization from atherosclerotic vascular disease in either the 5-year RCT [multivariate-adjusted HR = 0.938, 95% confidence interval (CI) 0.690-1.275] or during the 9.5 years of observational study (multivariate-adjusted HR = 0.919, 95% CI 0.737-1.146). Further analysis suggested that calcium supplementation may reduce the risk of hospitalization and mortality in patients with preexisting atherosclerotic cardiovascular disease. This trial provides compelling evidence that calcium supplementation of 1200 mg daily does not significantly increase the risk of atherosclerotic vascular disease in elderly women.

 

[jellog]

Very interesting, so at ~750mg/d, I could increase my intake by a half a gram or so. Supplementing calcium and upping my calcium intake in order to prevent calcification seems like a bit of a paradox itself. I see serum calcium might be associated with atherosclerosis, and calcium supplementation increases serum calcium. Would I be better taking a supplement with each meal, for an all-day-long elevation of calcium in my blood, or better to take 3 capsules at once and get it over with?

Looking into Ca Carbonate, I came across posts like:
"Leave that carbonate alone unless you like calcium in your arteries." -- http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index. ... entry29195

"Calcium carbonate, really? Hope you enjoy upsetting the PH balance of your stomach and sending that calcium straight to your arteries!" -- http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index. ... entry88847

"Calcium Carbonate - Lowers Stomach Acid and deposits straight in your ARTERIES! -- http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index. ... entry50579

"Calcium carbonate gets deposited in the arteries and hinders digestion" -- http://forum.bulletproofexec.com/index. ... entry15886

Although, maybe this guy doesn't know what he's talking about.

I'm particularly interested in the "calcium paradox" of higher serum calcium scores with lower calcium intakes. At 750mg of Ca per day, my most recent metabolic blood work showed a serum level of 10.1mg/dL out of a reference range of 8.2-10.2 -- still within the normal bounds, but seemingly near the upper limit.

 

[tara]

Bulletproof is not our go-to here for physiological explanations.
Have you read this one?:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/calcium.shtml

 

[jellog]

Bulletproof is not our go-to here for physiological explanations.
Have you read this one?:
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/calcium.shtml

I haven't, that's a good article. When I reach conflicting info, I try to find some compromise between the sides. (Eg. the bulletproof guy seems to suggest that citrate is fine, and citrate seems acceptable on this side.)

This looks like an interesting comparison, although I'm not sure what to make of it:
http://www.advancesjournal.com/posters/ ... albion.pdf

http://www.atherosclerosis-journal.com/article/S0021-9150(06)00485-0/abstract

http://eurheartj.oxfordjournals.org/content/33/22/2873

http://www.translational-medicine.com/content/10/1/114

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3336363/

A randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial of 1,460 Australian women reported a RR of 1.12 for clinically diagnosed CHD comparing women taking 1200 mg/d of calcium carbonate (given in 2 divided doses) versus those taking placebo.

In another trial in New Zealand, 1,471 healthy postmenopausal women were randomized to take 1g/day of calcium citrate or placebo. After 5 years treatment and follow-up, women in the calcium group experienced more adjudicated MI events and composite CVD endpoints including MI, stroke, and sudden death than women in the placebo group.

Atrial of 323 healthy men ≥40 years old from New Zealand randomized participants to take 600 mg/d calcium citrate, 1200 mg/d calcium citrate, or placebo. The composite endpoint of vascular events including angina, MI, sudden death, and coronary revascularization were more common in calcium supplement versus placebo group.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21409434

We recently conducted a meta-analysis of trials of calcium supplements, and found a 27-31% increase in risk of myocardial infarction and a 12-20% increase in risk of stroke. Calcium supplements produce small reductions in fracture risk and a small increase in cardiovascular risk.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3875933/

A meta-analysis of 15 trials by Bolland et al. [38] found that calcium supplementation of 500 mg or greater was associated with hazard ratio of 1.31 for myocardial infarction (95% CI 1.02–1.67, p = 0.035).

Calcium supplements may contribute to vascular calcification by causing a positive calcium balance as evidenced by a reduction in PTH and a modest rise in serum calcium level. Serum calcium is positively correlated with carotid artery plaque thickness, aortic calcification, incidence of myocardial infarction, and mortality [45,46]. It is possible that an increase in serum calcium level from supplements induces vascular calcification by altering inhibitors such as fetuin-A, matrix Gla protein, pyrophosphate, osteoprotegerin, and bone morphogenic protein-7.

Perhaps there's a difference between raising serum Ca with supplementation vs it naturally rising?

 

[yoshiesque]

I actually saw an email thread somewhere where Chris Masterjohn recommended avoiding eggshells if on the RP diet, and to go with dairy instead.

Which kinda concerns me, because unlike Dave Asprey, he is very intelligent and tends to agree with many of RP's views, such as CO2