Sugars From Fruit And Milk Vs. Starches

Kasper

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Despite Westside PUFAs misinformation here, Ray Peat in the recent years has made an effort to avoid all starches, replacing it with orange juice, fruits, milk and white sugar (coke I guess). He changed idea about starchy foods, and he considers them to be more inflammatory now than then.

Also potatoes? Where did he say that he changed ideas about starches?
 

tara

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Despite Westside PUFAs misinformation here, Ray Peat in the recent years has made an effort to avoid all starches, replacing it with orange juice, fruits, milk and white sugar (coke I guess). He changed idea about starchy foods, and he considers them to be more inflammatory now than then.

I don't see Westside's posts about starchy vegetables/roots etc being much misinformation. I also see Peat referring to the potential downsides of starchy foods, so I think pointing to his ideas about their potential inflammatory effects is also an accurate reflection of that.

I don't see what the problem is with accepting that some starchy foods have both up sides (eg good quality protein, minerals, low fat, etc) and potential down sides (eg feeding bacteria > endotoxin, spiking blood glucose, persorption of starch granules if not well-cooked).
Whether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for a particular person can depend on their own state, the accessible alternatives, and the relative quantities involved.
Overly focussing on categorising whether every food is either 'good' or 'bad' can run the risk of oversimplifying things or promoting an overly restrictive approach.
Assuming that exactly the same approach will work for everyone doesn't take into account the variation in our current states (or what we actually have access to eat).
 
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Koveras

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I don't see Westside's posts about starchy vegetables/roots etc being much misinformation. I also see Peat referring to the potential downsides of starchy foods, so I think pointing to his ideas about their potential inflammatory effects is also an accurate reflection of that.

I don't see what the problem is with accepting that some starchy foods have both up sides (eg good quality protein, minerals, low fat, etc) and potential down sides (eg feeding bacteria > endotoxin, spiking blood glucose, persorption of starch granules if not well-cooked).
Whether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for a particular person can depend on their own state, the accessible alternatives, and the relative quantities involved.
Overly focussing on categorising whether every food is either 'good' or 'bad' can run the risk of oversimplifying things or promoting an overly restrictive approach.
Assuming that exactly the same approach will work for everyone doesn't take into account the variation in our current states (or what we actually have access to eat).

Context?!

To paraphrase Allen Iverson:

It's easy to sum it up when you're just talking about context. We're sitting in here, and I'm supposed to be the answer, and we in here talking about context. I mean, listen, we're talking about context, not an absolute, not an absolute, not an absolute, we talking about context. Not an absolute. Not, not … Not the absolute that I go out there and die for and play every answer like it's the last. Not the answer, but we're talking about context, man. I mean, how silly is that? … And we talking about context. I know I supposed to be there. I know I'm supposed to lead by example... I know that... And I'm not.. I'm not shoving it aside, you know, like it don't mean anything. I know it's important, I do. I honestly do... But we're talking about context man. What are we talking about? Context? We're talking about context, man. We're talking about context. We're talking about context. We ain't talking about an absolute. We're talking about context, man. When you come to the forum, and you see me talk, you see me talk don't you? You've seen me give everything I've got, right? But we're talking about context right now. We talking about... .
 
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tara

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Koveras

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Sorry. I was responding to the couple of posts directly above - edited to add in a quote. That better? :)

Sorry. Meant as tongue in cheek. I agree with your stance that context is important.
 

ravster02

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It is misinformation because the thread title is a quote taken out of context. It's quite irresponsible actually.
 

tara

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milk_lover

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It is misinformation because the thread title is a quote taken out of context. It's quite irresponsible actually.
This!

Some people loooove their starch so much (I love starch like anybody else) that they're blinded by its potential problems. Do a test for yourself. Try one week with starch and another week without starch. Record the mental and digestion states. Record your temperature, pulse and measure your weight/water retention. Nobody here loves arabic hot bread more than me. I eat it, but only occasionally now. I work at an Engineering company. It's very important for me to keep focused.
 

Kasper

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This!

Some people loooove their starch so much (I love starch like anybody else) that they're blinded by its potential problems. Do a test for yourself. Try one week with starch and another week without starch. Record the mental and digestion states. Record your temperature, pulse and measure your weight/water retention. Nobody here loves arabic hot bread more than me. I eat it, but only occasionally now. I work at an Engineering company. It's very important for me to keep focused.

I've done lots of those tests, either eating up to 2 kg of potatoes, or drinking lots of orange juice, and/or coke.

My digestion is prefect with potatoes, I have zero water retention, I feel good, my pulse is low, but my temps are high.

With fruit, fruit juices, or coke, my digestion is horrible, my pulse is also low, my temps are low, I have constant white pale face, my eyes are red, my tooth are hurting, I just feel like a mess.

I like potatoes, but I love the taste of sugar more. I just don't feel good with sugar for some rare reason it seems, because many people seem to feel good here with sugar.

I've tried to made this point before, but I find the term starch too general. People say for example, starch give me water retention. But maybe it is not about the starch, but other ***t in grains that give water retention.

Grains =/= Potatoes, they are both starchy rich food, but I think they give very different effects, at least for me.
 
T

tca300

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People LOVE starch? Hmmm... So you all eat plain potatoes... Plain rice and other grains? Very doubtful. Fruit tastes great without anything added.
 

milk_lover

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People LOVE starch? Hmmm... So you all eat plain potatoes... Plain rice and other grains? Very doubtful. Fruit tastes great without anything added.
I can actually eat hot bread by itself and it still tastes good. It has glucose and salt. More than enough. And if you add butter, then it's even better. So yeah some people like eating starch by themselves and some like them with other food like butter and meat.

I've done lots of those tests, either eating up to 2 kg of potatoes, or drinking lots of orange juice, and/or coke.

My digestion is prefect with potatoes, I have zero water retention, I feel good, my pulse is low, but my temps are high.

With fruit, fruit juices, or coke, my digestion is horrible, my pulse is also low, my temps are low, I have constant white pale face, my eyes are red, my tooth are hurting, I just feel like a mess.

I like potatoes, but I love the taste of sugar more. I just don't feel good with sugar for some rare reason it seems, because many people seem to feel good here with sugar.

I've tried to made this point before, but I find the term starch too general. People say for example, starch give me water retention. But maybe it is not about the starch, but other **** in grains that give water retention.

Grains =/= Potatoes, they are both starchy rich food, but I think they give very different effects, at least for me.

Potatoes can be allergenic to some people, it's from the nightshade family. Some people here reported they tolerate white bread and rice, both are grains, more than potatoes. It's very individual thing. Kasper, I think what you're doing is healthy because you're listening to your body. Potatoes are tasty if they are fried and salted. Otherwise, they taste plain to me. No joy I get from them.
 
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Also potatoes? Where did he say that he changed ideas about starches?

He considers potatoes the best starch because of the nutrition they contain, but he does its best to avoid all starchy food lately, just check his recent quotes about these issues and you'll figure it out. He has also mentioned his full diet replying someone's email, that became public, and he doesn't list any starchy food. He consumes orange juice as a fruity carb source, and cherimoyas, sapotes, some other tropical fruit.
 

tara

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but he does its best to avoid all starchy food lately, just check his recent quotes about these issues and you'll figure it out.
I've seen him suggest that for particular issues. I don't think I've seen it as a general long-term guideline from him for everybody.

He consumes orange juice as a fruity carb source, and cherimoyas, sapotes, some other tropical fruit.
Not all of us have access to sufficient ripe tropical fruit, or ripe oranges/juice year round. Access is also a relevant factor for many (as Peat has shown himself to be aware). I would love to try his diet out, but there is no why it would be possible where I am. I don't know if it would suit my system, but I'm pretty sure I'd find it delicious and be happy to try it if I got the chance, while watching to see if it improved my health or not.

Even if it were true that a diet based on abundant ripe tropical fruit (and little or no starch) were likely to be better for most people than a diet with more starchy foods in it, that doesn't mean that the alternatives actually available to most people are going to better than a diet including some starchy roots and tubers.

In the meantime, potatoes in moderate quantities seem to have a lot going for them for me (not for everybody). Also really enjoy some occasional sweet potatoes (esp the more white/less orange ones) and taro. I'm eating more sugar carbs than starch carbs these days, but the days when I don't eat any starch don't seem to go as well. Possibly that could be a transitional issue that would resolve if I stuck to it long enough, but I've not got confidence enough to try that yet with current available options. How long should one put up with feeling worse in the hope that one eventually feels better? People can get pretty lost by overriding their own feedback for too long.
 
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I've seen him suggest that for particular issues. I don't think I've seen it as a general long-term guideline from him for everybody.


Not all of us have access to sufficient ripe tropical fruit, or ripe oranges/juice year round. Access is also a relevant factor for many (as Peat has shown himself to be aware). I would love to try his diet out, but there is no why it would be possible where I am. I don't know if it would suit my system, but I'm pretty sure I'd find it delicious and be happy to try it if I got the chance, while watching to see if it improved my health or not.

Even if it were true that a diet based on abundant ripe tropical fruit (and little or no starch) were likely to be better for most people than a diet with more starchy foods in it, that doesn't mean that the alternatives actually available to most people are going to better than a diet including some starchy roots and tubers.

In the meantime, potatoes in moderate quantities seem to have a lot going for them for me (not for everybody). Also really enjoy some occasional sweet potatoes (esp the more white/less orange ones) and taro. I'm eating more sugar carbs than starch carbs these days, but the days when I don't eat any starch don't seem to go as well. Possibly that could be a transitional issue that would resolve if I stuck to it long enough, but I've not got confidence enough to try that yet with current available options. How long should one put up with feeling worse in the hope that one eventually feels better? People can get pretty lost by overriding their own feedback for too long.

I agree that access to proper fruit is important. I actually think it's extremely important and many people don't care about that enough, or do not have the chance, sometimes. Ray lives in Eugene though, so not a tropical location, he manages to get decent stuff, at least oranges and cherimoyas, as far as I can tell. (Cherimoyas tend to be in season when oranges are scarce, so that's a plus, and they're delicious!)

However I didn't state he's suggesting that to everyone (to avoid all starches) but it's clear that he does that because he thinks fruit is a superior source of energy, for the fructose content and the mineral balance. Personally I feel more sluggish (both physically and mentally) when I consume starchy food and I'll happily avoid it all if I had access to good fruit. People "not being able to avoid starch" are just eating bad fruit, and from what I see it's the case of 90+% of "Peatarians", because it's rare nowadays to find good fruit in stores. Anything that is starchy, stringy, crisp, and of course not fully tree-ripened is likely to cause problems.

Personally, I've found this to be a big issue for me, that I can't consume any fruit in my actual location without having issues (except some very ripe oranges that I sometimes happen to get--when not fully ripe they give me freezing feet instantly) so I'm about to move to a tropical location in the next months, probably permanently.
 

tara

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but it's clear that he does that because he thinks fruit is a superior source of energy, for the fructose content and the mineral balance.
Yes, I agree he does seem to consider it superior for himself at least, and maybe for most people as a staple. But he also does suggest people pay attention to the taste and effects of foods for them personally, not just follow a general expert opinion.

I've just looked up pictures of cherimoyas. I don't recall ever seeing such a fruit in an any shop I've been in.
Oranges are available in abundance for a few months each year, and even then they are not reliable - one of those fruits that you can't tell ripeness from the outside before buying.

There is always some fruit available, but not tropical. We eat fruit regularly, sometimes cooked, and drink commercial juice. Actually, there are times that some kinds of fruit are cheap enough that I would feed us all a lot more cooked fruit if it didn't take so long to prepare it. I believe Peat has pointed to some potential downsides with the rosaceae as well as kiwifruit and bananas and mangoes and pineapples. We eat them anyway.
 
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EIRE24

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Yes, I agree he does seem to consider it superior for himself at least, and maybe for most people as a staple. But he also does suggest people pay attention to the taste and effects of foods for them personally, not just follow a general expert opinion.

I've just looked up pictures of cherimoyas. I don't recall ever seeing such a fruit in an any shop I've been in.
Oranges are available in abundance for a few months each year, and even then they are not reliable - one of those fruits that you can't tell ripeness from the outside before buying.

There is always some fruit available, but not tropical. We eat fruit regularly, sometimes cooked, and drink commercial juice. Actually, there are times that some kinds of fruit are cheap enough that I would feed us all a lot more cooked fruit if it didn't take so long to prepare it. I believe Peat has pointed to some potential downsides with the rosacaea, as well as kiwifruit and bananas and mangoes and pineapples. We eat them anyway.


Rosacea from fruit?
 

tara

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Rosacea from fruit?

Whoops, my bad spelling - I meant rosaceae
Several economically important products come from the Rosaceae, including many edible fruits (such as apples,pears, quinces, apricots, plums, cherries, peaches, raspberries, loquats, and strawberries), almonds, and ornamental trees and shrubs (such as roses, meadowsweets, photinias, firethorns, rowans, and hawthorns).
Rosaceae - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Nicholas

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I don't see Westside's posts about starchy vegetables/roots etc being much misinformation. I also see Peat referring to the potential downsides of starchy foods, so I think pointing to his ideas about their potential inflammatory effects is also an accurate reflection of that.

I don't see what the problem is with accepting that some starchy foods have both up sides (eg good quality protein, minerals, low fat, etc) and potential down sides (eg feeding bacteria > endotoxin, spiking blood glucose, persorption of starch granules if not well-cooked).
Whether the benefits outweigh the disadvantages for a particular person can depend on their own state, the accessible alternatives, and the relative quantities involved.
Overly focussing on categorising whether every food is either 'good' or 'bad' can run the risk of oversimplifying things or promoting an overly restrictive approach.
Assuming that exactly the same approach will work for everyone doesn't take into account the variation in our current states (or what we actually have access to eat).

how true. when we are in a state of overly focusing on good vs. bad or categorizing food, we are not perceiving or thinking. Its a state of losing touch with one's body and mind. The fact that every food has positives and negatives, and every person is dealing with an entirely different context goes to show that "health" is about something much deeper.
 
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Guys I don't seek and consume simple sugars (milk, fruit, white sugar) because Peat said so or something, I just do extremely bad with starches and most fruit that aren't tropical/subtropical and ripe. Like I have intense symptoms if I consume anything I can find in a store. Peat is as fragile as I am, so that's what he does as well.
The main problem with applying his theories and find benefits from it is our environment that's not optimal at all.
I kinda envy people doing better on the things you mentioned, Tara, because life would be much easier.
 

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