Sugar And Serotonin

[kineticz]

'Refined sugar favors conversion of tryptophan to serotonin causing a relative dopamine deficiency and acetylcholine deficiency, which causes disturbances in movement and memory'

I just read this page. It looks as though he attributes to estrogen insufficiency some symptoms thant Peat seems to attribute to estrogen excess and/or progesterone deficiency (eg menopausal hot flashes). Since this is Peat's area of particular expertise, I'm inclined to go on Peat's model so far.

He refers to refined sugars a few times on that page. I didn't read further about his approach, but I'm guessing the point about refined sugar for him would be the lack of sufficient accompanying micronutrients, eg potassium, magnesium, B-vitamins, to aid in its efficient metabolism? I think Peat is also keen on supplying adequate micronutrients, though he does seem to think it can be done alongside some limited refined sucrose, when better sugar sources are not available.
I guess excessive refined sugars without adequate B-vitamins, potassium, magnesium etc could be expected to cause some problems.

In my honest experience, having estrogen, especially E2, below 10, is not desirable. It is making my recovery problematic because I am prone to excessive cortisol downregulating my testosterone production. Low E2 is also not good for liver enzymes.

For some people such as myself, low E2 can make recovery very difficult, since it maximises adrenaline, reduces the dopamine conversion to norephiprene (hence lowers ACTH - ACTH is a key signal for pregnenolone), and causes dry skin and hair. Peat says estrogen limits mitochondria respiration, but in my view that is desirable at least in the short term as you don't want excess mitochondria with low energy input and low thyroid. It just seems to increase prolactin and therefore cortisol directly independent of ACTH. He also says that estrogen promotes glycolysis - I thought this was desirable over lipolysis.

This is why I was hesitant at first to join the forum and accept Peat's views. He is anti-ACTH and anti-E2, but I am low in both and this has maximised my free fatty acids, and dug a great big hole for myself. In his studies and claims, he presents an adamant view that ACTH and estrogen are the bad guys, but he neglects to point out that:

a) for many people, having normal estrogen is actually key to fixing their issues at it regulates the free form of thyroid hormone and does promote better neurotransmitter management than having low ACTH, low pregnenolone and low estrogen.

b) While thyroid regulates all hormonal cascades, it does not do this equally. And having high LH and low ACTH is NOT desirable, but can happen when you lower E2 too much and the gonads are upregulated, diverting cholesterol away from the adrenals and making adrenal mitochondria suffocated by fatty acids in their attempt to maintain function in deficient pregnenolone. Low E2 can and does in my case increase LH. High LH when you are hypothyroid and your adrenals are smothered in fatty acids is a very BAD situation.

c) Prolactin in hypothyroidism, can be high even with low estrogen, due to catabolism and serotonins/prolactin's independent stimulation of cortisol. He says ACTH does this, but I don't believe this, as ACTH stimulates pregnenolone and should not be minimised. Excess thyroid and adrenal signals that cannot keep up will not be resolved purely by taking pregnenolone. It can actually increase fatty acids.

d) Cortisol is required for T3 to work.

Adrenals are always most important before the gonads and even the thyroid. Estrogen's stimulation of norephiprene allows the adrenals to strengthen whilst estrogen binding thyroid and adrenaline allows pregnenolone to recoup.

My prolonged pregnenolone use and aromatase blockers sent me near suicidal.

All I'm saying is, in the link I posted above, the theory of estrogen deficiency and progesterone excess, as shown by my blood results, is spot on.

Progesterone will attenuate the cortisol pathway and reduce the DHEA pathway in hypothyroidism, whereas a relatively higher estrogen will promote neurotransmitters, promote DHEA if resources allow, and slow down your thyroid while you work on your nutrients etc. Adding thyroid to relatively high progesterone when ACTH is already at full stretch and pregnenolone is low is not wise. E2, to a large extent, prevents this risk.

 

[kineticz]

Eggs can cause hypoglycemia which symptoms are similar to panic attack.

Insulin release is also stimulated by amino acids such as leucine, and insulin stimulates cells to absorb amino acids and to synthesize proteins. Since insulin lowers blood sugar as it disposes of amino acids, eating a large amount of protein without carbohydrate can cause a sharp decrease in blood sugar. This leads to the release of adrenalin and cortisol, which raise the blood sugar. Adrenalin causes fatty acids to be drawn into the blood from fat stores, especially if the liver's glycogen stores are depleted, and cortisol causes tissue protein to be broken down into amino acids, some of which are used in place of carbohydrate. Unsaturated fatty acids, adrenaline, and cortisol cause insulin resistance.
A high quality protein such as egg, can cause a stress reaction, and fail to be fully used as protein, if it is eaten without carbohydrates.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/Glycemia%

Ah, problem solved.

What sugar intake in grams would you recommend to prevent this hypoglycemia.

I just took some protein and it caused anxiety for a few minutes then passed.

"To use the protein of 2 eggs efficiently it would be good to have a glass of milk and a large glass of orange juice." RP

Great info you have taught me something new HDD.

 

[kineticz]

Do you have a source?

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/premenstru ... romes.html

My estrogen is non-existent on blood tests and it's lists on progesterone excess and estrogen deficiency tell me that my depersonalised mood which still remains at some moments is due to norephiprene reduction. I think some estrogen is good for mood and focus.

Large doses of vitamin E are working spectacularly for my clarity and sex drive. This study says it boosts estrogen and lowers LDL cholesterol. High LDL cholesterol inhibits adrenal steroids. I also do not do well when consuming eggs. I get panic attacks.

Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml

According to the link, low doses antagonise estrogen, but high doses can increase it.

how much E do you take?

Hi Peata, I take 1200ui, along with my 2g lysine.

 

[Dean]

I think Peat is also keen on supplying adequate micronutrients, though he does seem to think it can be done alongside some limited refined sucrose, when better sugar sources are not available.
I guess excessive refined sugars without adequate B-vitamins, potassium, magnesium etc could be expected to cause some problems.

Peat does say sugar from fruit is obviously better; and short term substitution of sucrose is an option when reliable fruit isn't available. I know he also has said though that sucrose can be used "therapeutically." It was just a passing comment that I never heard him elaborate on.

I guess I'm still wondering how consuming sucrose, in and of itself, increases the need for micro-nutrients? Sugar isn't an anti-nutrient; and if your diet is free of other foods that have anti-nutrients like grains, legumes, and vegetables (aside from vegetable fruits) and if you do consume, say, half of your calories from nutrient dense foods, then what is the risk of getting the other half of your calories from sucrose? (This may be necessary for reasons such as: financial, food intolerance, or lack of availability of acceptable fruits--especially given the nature of our food/fruit supply here in the U.S., etc.) Wouldn't that be better than not getting sufficient calories?

 

[Waremu]

Do you have a source?

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/premenstru ... romes.html

My estrogen is non-existent on blood tests and it's lists on progesterone excess and estrogen deficiency tell me that my depersonalised mood which still remains at some moments is due to norephiprene reduction. I think some estrogen is good for mood and focus.

Large doses of vitamin E are working spectacularly for my clarity and sex drive. This study says it boosts estrogen and lowers LDL cholesterol. High LDL cholesterol inhibits adrenal steroids. I also do not do well when consuming eggs. I get panic attacks.

Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml

According to the link, low doses antagonise estrogen, but high doses can increase it.

That article provides no study or "evidence" that I am aware of to substantiate the authors claim of estrogen in larger amounts raising estrogen. To my knowledge, this is not true. I am always very suspicious of articles that provide no studies or even sufficient evidence. Vitamin E in higher doses has been shown to decrease estrogen, the opposite of what the article claims.

 

[tara]

I guess I'm still wondering how consuming sucrose, in and of itself, increases the need for micro-nutrients? Sugar isn't an anti-nutrient; and if your diet is free of other foods that have anti-nutrients like grains, legumes, and vegetables (aside from vegetable fruits) and if you do consume, say, half of your calories from nutrient dense foods, then what is the risk of getting the other half of your calories from sucrose? (This may be necessary for reasons such as: financial, food intolerance, or lack of availability of acceptable fruits--especially given the nature of our food/fruit supply here in the U.S., etc.) Wouldn't that be better than not getting sufficient calories?

Hi Dean,
My reading of Peat is that an increase in metabolism is likely to require more of many micronutrients. For instance, one of his articles on fats talks about the Burr's experiment that people often refer to as demonstrating the essentiality of some PUFAs, because adding in those 'EFAs' resolved the issues. Later experiments resolved those issues by adding in more B vitamins (specifically B6, I think) but still leaving out all the fat, demonstrating that it was not an EFA deficiency. Peat's explanation is that the removal of fat, particularly PUFA, from the diet allowed the metabolism to increase, and therefore increased the requirements for B6, which had been supplied a minimal level just sufficient to not show deficiency symptoms at a metabolic rate suppressed by PUFAs. Nutrient deficiencies can be deepened by raising metabolism without also raising nutrition adequately.

 

[tara]

I would guess that the diabetic man Peat talks about who recovered from diabetes by adding 8oz sugar to his diet (early last century?) was probably getting good nutrition in other respects from his diet that included lots of meat and vegetables. 100 years ago, soils were not so depleted, and I speculate that he veges would have had substantially higher brix and higher mineral content than the average vegetable today.

 

[kineticz]

I'm still unsure regarding sugar and serotonin.

When I used to consume significantly less carbs and always drank diet cokes so lots of phenylalanine, I was definitely more in the dominant mindset regarding social status.

Having adding a lot of sugar recently, it seems to have made me less inclined to dominate, but more inclined to integrate. It reduces my willpower and motivation, but puts me in a more broadly better mood, at least until I go hypo again.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

I'm still unsure regarding sugar and serotonin.

When I used to consume significantly less carbs and always drank diet cokes so lots of phenylalanine, I was definitely more in the dominant mindset regarding social status.

Having adding a lot of sugar recently, it seems to have made me less inclined to dominate, but more inclined to integrate. It reduces my willpower and motivation, but puts me in a more broadly better mood, at least until I go hypo again.

Makes sense. High estrogen and serotonin is likely to make one more aggressive in a negative way. I don't think that being inclined to integrate or being less dominating is the best way to view it. I find that I am more calm and less likely to flip out over dumb stuff than I used to be, but I'm also more likely to speak up and assert myself in situations where I feel like I have valid input or opinions. I don't let myself get walked over but neither do I feel like I have to constantly beat my chest or prove my worth. In a social situation such action could be considered very "beta".

 

[kineticz]

I'm still unsure regarding sugar and serotonin.

When I used to consume significantly less carbs and always drank diet cokes so lots of phenylalanine, I was definitely more in the dominant mindset regarding social status.

Having adding a lot of sugar recently, it seems to have made me less inclined to dominate, but more inclined to integrate. It reduces my willpower and motivation, but puts me in a more broadly better mood, at least until I go hypo again.

Makes sense. High estrogen and serotonin is likely to make one more aggressive in a negative way. I don't think that being inclined to integrate or being less dominating is the best way to view it. I find that I am more calm and less likely to flip out over dumb stuff than I used to be, but I'm also more likely to speak up and assert myself in situations where I feel like I have valid input or opinions. I don't let myself get walked over but neither do I feel like I have to constantly beat my chest or prove my worth. In a social situation such action could be considered very "beta".

Yeh I understand.

The problem for me in this situation is that with the reduction in aggression, my natural assertiveness is very low and this is made evident the more I implement 'calming' measures such as sugar. My genes seem hard wired at a very low rate of energy expenditure hence with the reduction in stress I am finding it worrying how best to deal with this reduction in assertiveness. Hence my tendency to view the new mental outlook less dominating than stress hormones, particularly norephiprene which is what's driven me to where I am today (in a very good standard of life really). Estrogen is a key norephiprene signal.

 

[kineticz]

Do you have a source?

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/premenstru ... romes.html

My estrogen is non-existent on blood tests and it's lists on progesterone excess and estrogen deficiency tell me that my depersonalised mood which still remains at some moments is due to norephiprene reduction. I think some estrogen is good for mood and focus.

Large doses of vitamin E are working spectacularly for my clarity and sex drive. This study says it boosts estrogen and lowers LDL cholesterol. High LDL cholesterol inhibits adrenal steroids. I also do not do well when consuming eggs. I get panic attacks.

Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml

According to the link, low doses antagonise estrogen, but high doses can increase it.

That article provides no study or "evidence" that I am aware of to substantiate the authors claim of estrogen in larger amounts raising estrogen. To my knowledge, this is not true. I am always very suspicious of articles that provide no studies or even sufficient evidence. Vitamin E in higher doses has been shown to decrease estrogen, the opposite of what the article claims.

I'm still trying to work out regarding the vitamin E.

I have aromatase blockers and estrogen blockers, and I can guarantee that if I take them now, they do NOT improve my mood and wellbeing.

This vitamin E is working in the opposite direction for whatever reason. It makes me horny too.

The only thing I can point to is a study that says vitamin E lowers Estrone. Perhaps my Estrone was high, I never had that tested. I know my Estradiol is low, maybe it's possible it's all sat as Estrone. Estrone, I think, has the same anti-metabolic effects, just less feminisation than Estradiol.

But the link earlier in the thread says estrogen can be raised, and considering my low Estradiol, it's feasible...

 

[tomisonbottom]

post 73392

Do you have a source?

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/premenstru ... romes.html

My estrogen is non-existent on blood tests and it's lists on progesterone excess and estrogen deficiency tell me that my depersonalised mood which still remains at some moments is due to norephiprene reduction. I think some estrogen is good for mood and focus.

Large doses of vitamin E are working spectacularly for my clarity and sex drive. This study says it boosts estrogen and lowers LDL cholesterol. High LDL cholesterol inhibits adrenal steroids. I also do not do well when consuming eggs. I get panic attacks.

Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml

According to the link, low doses antagonise estrogen, but high doses can increase it.

That article provides no study or "evidence" that I am aware of to substantiate the authors claim of estrogen in larger amounts raising estrogen. To my knowledge, this is not true. I am always very suspicious of articles that provide no studies or even sufficient evidence. Vitamin E in higher doses has been shown to decrease estrogen, the opposite of what the article claims.

I'm still trying to work out regarding the vitamin E.

I have aromatase blockers and estrogen blockers, and I can guarantee that if I take them now, they do NOT improve my mood and wellbeing.

This vitamin E is working in the opposite direction for whatever reason. It makes me horny too.

The only thing I can point to is a study that says vitamin E lowers Estrone. Perhaps my Estrone was high, I never had that tested. I know my Estradiol is low, maybe it's possible it's all sat as Estrone. Estrone, I think, has the same anti-metabolic effects, just less feminisation than Estradiol.

But the link earlier in the thread says estrogen can be raised, and considering my low Estradiol, it's feasible...

How much vitamin E are you taking?

 

[Peata]

post 106057

post 73392

Do you have a source?

http://www.drkaslow.com/html/premenstru ... romes.html

My estrogen is non-existent on blood tests and it's lists on progesterone excess and estrogen deficiency tell me that my depersonalised mood which still remains at some moments is due to norephiprene reduction. I think some estrogen is good for mood and focus.

Large doses of vitamin E are working spectacularly for my clarity and sex drive. This study says it boosts estrogen and lowers LDL cholesterol. High LDL cholesterol inhibits adrenal steroids. I also do not do well when consuming eggs. I get panic attacks.

Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/vitamin-e.shtml

According to the link, low doses antagonise estrogen, but high doses can increase it.

That article provides no study or "evidence" that I am aware of to substantiate the authors claim of estrogen in larger amounts raising estrogen. To my knowledge, this is not true. I am always very suspicious of articles that provide no studies or even sufficient evidence. Vitamin E in higher doses has been shown to decrease estrogen, the opposite of what the article claims.

I'm still trying to work out regarding the vitamin E.

I have aromatase blockers and estrogen blockers, and I can guarantee that if I take them now, they do NOT improve my mood and wellbeing.

This vitamin E is working in the opposite direction for whatever reason. It makes me horny too.

The only thing I can point to is a study that says vitamin E lowers Estrone. Perhaps my Estrone was high, I never had that tested. I know my Estradiol is low, maybe it's possible it's all sat as Estrone. Estrone, I think, has the same anti-metabolic effects, just less feminisation than Estradiol.

But the link earlier in the thread says estrogen can be raised, and considering my low Estradiol, it's feasible...

How much vitamin E are you taking?

Were you asking me? If so, I'm currently not taking it, but when using it I either got it from Progest E or Unique E capsule.

 

[Sue789]

My post just now showed up as "all quoted" for some reason, so here it is again, hopefully easier to read:

@kineticz I know this is an old post, but your comment is on a topic I'm researching for myself:
Do you have a study source backing up the comment about LDL affecting adrenal steroids?
I've been under the impression that cholesterol (without being defined as LDL versus HDL) is used by the body to make steroids. Your comment about LDL possibly doing the opposite is not an idea I've ever seen before, and when I took a look in Pubmed, I couldn't find anything to back that up. Maybe I missed it...