Study Found: When It Comes To Knowing True Self, Believe In Free Will

[lollipop]

Study found: When it comes to knowing true self, believe in free will

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/06/160617113502.htm

 

[ecstatichamster]

Thanks! You could have kept this to yourself. But I'm glad you chose to share it :p

 

[Barliman]

Well thats no surprise, and it explains the agenda of the free will deniers. Its all about control- and no sense of free will allow you to be externally controlled.

 

[lollipop]

Well thats no surprise, and it explains the agenda of the free will deniers. Its all about control- and no sense of free will allow you to be externally controlled.

This.

 

[Xisca]

It can be also seen as a study about the importance of believing over truth!

Reading this, showed me that the truth of what you believe in, is not even as much important than the fact of believing + what you believe in.

What is important is the good effect of the believe.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

I'm not completely sure, but what I think this study shows is that those who show a lack of belief in free will experience negative emotions, like alienation or lack of purpose.

So, learned helplessness in a way.

Thinking free will doesn't exist at first can be scary.

It was for me, it was actually terrifying, and I instantly felt a loss of meaning.

But once you get over it you feel the same or better than before.

It took me a couple of years to get comfortable with it.

And it depends on how willing you are to let go of self and control.

People who think they have free will seem like they desperately want control.

Like, "I have free will, I am limitless".

It reminds me of those who ignore the effect of genes because they want to believe they can do anything and that they aren't limited.

Imo, we are extremely limited, everything is predetermined, and consciousness is an illusion.

Think about atoms or particles. Do they have free will? No, they move based on what pushes them.

Now think about the brain. The brain is composed of atoms/particles/matter. All of which lack free will.

So where does the free will come from?

None of the particles are choosing where to go, they are pushed by others, which were pushed by others, etc.

Turtles all the way down.

Every neuron is composed of particles. Every cell, every mitochondria.

And so, our thinking is predetermined, as well as our biology, as well as this world in general, the universe.

How would we even be able to have free will? It makes no sense physically, on how the universe works.

Like, what even is the definition of "free will"?

Of course, this is presupposing that consciousness comes from the brain

Even knowing this I still choose to live as if I have free will.

I mean, we all technically have "free will", but it's not at all what we think it means.

Quantum mechanics conveniently makes free will more "free" and possible, but there's some problems with it, and I doubt many on this forum would be willing to forego their belief in classical physics in exchange for quantum mechanical free will.

I've read that the Western belief in free will has it's roots in Christianity/Abrahamic religious.

I'd be willing to be that free will/self-autonomy has been taught as true by governments.

Country where free will is believe to be true = "Give that murderer a death sentence, he was completely in control of his actions".

Country where the world and people are seen as predetermined = "It's all atoms, just put him in prison so that he doesn't hurt other, but don't kill him".

Albert Einstein didn't believe in free will, if that means anything.

I just don't like feel good beliefs if they aren't true.

And just because free will isn't what you thought it was, doesn't mean you can't have a good life.

Quite the contrary.

When you fail (which you will, many times, that's life) under the belief that you have free will, it hurts far more than when you understand that "this would've happened regardless. I am just an automaton. Everything will be OK. Lets get back to work".

Or at least, that's my thought process when I fail. Good coping mechanism.

 

[Xisca]

Even knowing this I still choose to live as if I have free will.

I just don't like feel good beliefs if they aren't true.

It took you time to adapt, 2 years you said, and the experiences might have been more about loosing the sense of free will.

Feel good beliefs are everywhere, we just need imagination. You cannot even enjoy a film or a book if it were not for the feel good from imagination!

 

[lollipop]

@BigYellowLemon to me "free will" seems to have a scale based on various inputs like (not limited to) cultural and political environment, living environment (in city, countryside, with nature, without nature, etc), work environment, socioeconomic status, metabolic health, awareness, intuitive capacity, biological input, microbiome, virome, knowledge level, ecological earth, sun effects, etc.

IMO, not a simple, black/white condition or even turtles all the way down (have you read Ken wilber?) rather a highly complex, symbiotic, open system ever changing concept.

 

[J1000]

Do you choose your thoughts?
If you do, when do you make the conscious choice to choose it?
Did you choose it before thinking it? Then that would have been another thought. When did you consciously choose that one?
If you do choose them, you must be able to know what you will think in 5 seconds from now also.
All those things would have been other thoughts.
Which you only become aware of as they have already appeared in consciousness...

 

[Simonsays]

I believe in free will but have a false self.

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@lisaferraro

Yes I agree completely, the boundary for what is us vs it, is really blurry.

For instance, the food you eat at breakfast changes what decisions you make.

The air you breath, the things you read, etc.

And every input determines how you'll react to new inputs.

And the inputs themselves (like food, air, people) change based on other inputs they receive

And all these inputs determine things about yourself, like metabolic health or awareness.

So everything is really blurry and we are all one.

Originally I was talking about the very roots of free will, what that even means. A bit more theoretical.

And yeah generally I like Ken Wilber.

This talk is calming.

This really impressed me when I first found him.

The Rise And Fall of Ken Wilber

@J1000

Yep I agree.

Reminds me of Sam Harris.

 

[lollipop]

@BigYellowLemon cool on Ken Wilber - not hanging there anymore (I see some limitations) but informed a foundation of meta theoretical perspective in me.

I do not have the citation - so have to take it as is. Thought provoking though...

"Researchers have found that your intuition often knows the right answer long before your reasoning does. For example, in one study, researchers asked their subjects to play a card game where the goal was to win the most money. What the subjects did not realize, however, is that the game was rigged from the start. There were two stacks of cards to choose from; one was rigged to provide big wins followed by big losses, while the other deck was set up to provide small gains but almost no losses.

It took about 50 cards before the subjects said they had a hunch about which deck was safer, and about 80 cards before they could actually explain the difference between the two decks.

However, what is most fascinating is that after only 10 cards the sweat glands on the subjects' palms opened slightly every time they reached for a card in the dangerous deck. It was also around the tenth card that the subjects started to favor the safer deck, without being consciously aware that they were doing so. In other words, long before the analytical brain could explain what was going on, the subjects' bodily intuition knew where there was danger, and guided them toward safety.

A similar study looked at people's ability to predict whether a picture was behind Curtain #1 or Curtain #2; however, this was done on a computer, so there were no actual curtains involved.

Just like with the card study, the researchers also measured the subjects' subtle physiological responses. Remarkably, they found that the subjects' bodies were able to predict the correct curtain 2-3 seconds before the computer had even decided which curtain to use.

In both of these studies, the subjects did not always follow through with what their sweaty palms were telling them, even though the slightly sweaty palms were most always right. In fact, their palms actually had the ability to predict the future by about 2-3 seconds."

 

[BigYellowLemon]

@lisaferraro

Yeah that's why I linked the article at the end. I don't agree with any of his theories, especially the four-quadrant grid bologna.

The quotes you linked agree with me I think (and with you too). The people could tell that one deck was less safe than the other, but they didn't intellectually understand, or even consciously understand what was going on.

Because so much is going on the under the surface, and because we experience (or at least aren't clearly aware) so little of what our brain is computing, that really what is going on is our brain computes, and when finished computing, we become aware of it, and then get a feeling of free will.

 

[lollipop]

Because so much is going on the under the surface, and because we experience (or at least aren't clearly aware) so little of what our brain is computing, that really what is going on is our brain computes, and when finished computing, we become aware of it, and then get a feeling of free will.

Especially with recent discoveries of the electrical communication between cells...

 

[Tarmander]

Belief in free will leads to personal responsibility leads to meaning in your life. Your choices matter and you can make mistakes that matter and hurt yourself and others. Meaning is a double edged sword.

Denial of free will leads to lack of responsibility and little meaning in your life. You get comfort in knowing that you cannot really impact much, so mistakes don't have the bite. A bit like living in a dream. You give up meaning in exchange for less responsibility.

Whether you know it or not, participating in discussions like this acknowledges some type of free will. Courses can be changed, regeneration is possible, better actions exist.

From an emotional standpoint, if someone you know denies free will, do not be their friend or associate with them in any deep way. They will poison you with comfort which can lead to nihilism. But if life's bad enough, sometimes nihilism is a refuge.

 

[Ahanu]

Whether you know it or not, participating in discussions like this acknowledges some type of free will.

How so ?

 

[Tarmander]

How so ?

You would have to start looking at the reasons for communication, but use of language assumes utility in some sense. Negotiation, sharing experience, etc. Change. Christianity puts a lot of emphasis on the "word". God "spoke."

If someone is telling you about lack of free will, it especially applies. It violates that philosophical law about how you can't make an argument that invalidates your argument or something like that. It would be like saying "language has no meaning." If it's true it's false.

But that is just confusing the issue by somewhat removing free will from the personal...like this universal question of free will. Kind of doesn't matter.

In your actual life, someone who says free will does not exist and then gives reasons, I think that person has some deep confusions. Almost like living but not living. They walk around and talk but equivalate their brain to rocks or something? I think you have to acknowledge the unique brain.

Someone who acknowledges free will and treats their decisions as mattering, they are dependable, predictable, and will help you be a better person.

 

[Regina]

You would have to start looking at the reasons for communication, but use of language assumes utility in some sense. Negotiation, sharing experience, etc. Change. Christianity puts a lot of emphasis on the "word". God "spoke."

If someone is telling you about lack of free will, it especially applies. It violates that philosophical law about how you can't make an argument that invalidates your argument or something like that. It would be like saying "language has no meaning." If it's true it's false.

But that is just confusing the issue by somewhat removing free will from the personal...like this universal question of free will. Kind of doesn't matter.

In your actual life, someone who says free will does not exist and then gives reasons, I think that person has some deep confusions. Almost like living but not living. They walk around and talk but equivalate their brain to rocks or something? I think you have to acknowledge the unique brain.

Someone who acknowledges free will and treats their decisions as mattering, they are dependable, predictable, and will help you be a better person.

I understood it to mean "get out of the way of your Self."

Zen describes itself in four famous lines, traditionally attributed to Bodhidharma:

A special [or separate] transmission outside the scriptures [sutras];
Not dependent upon [or, not setting up] words and letters;
Direct pointing at the human mind;
Seeing one's [true] nature, becoming Buddha.

 

[pimpnamedraypeat]

Do you choose your thoughts?

Yes. You choose your thoughts by controlling what you think about. Your 'subconcious' flashes thoughts in your brain and the ones you rimunate over stick and come around again. Your 'subconcious' is a neural network and you're teaching it to think for you every-time you obsess over something.

If you do, when do you make the conscious choice to choose it?

All the time. You teach your brain what thoughts you like and it does the thinking for you.

Did you choose it before thinking it? Then that would have been another thought. When did you consciously choose that one?

Thinking isn't a multiple choice question or choosing a brand of snacks at the store. Your brain is a highly advanced neural network. Think of it like a tank. You are in control, yes, but you do not manually turn ever wheel and pump every piston. All that is done in the background, outside of your awareness, so you can focus on where you want to go.

This does not mean you are not in the drivers seat.

If you do choose them, you must be able to know what you will think in 5 seconds from now also.

No. You can drive a car not knowing what turn you will make 5 seconds from now. You don't control the traffic and you don't control the drivers around you.

All those things would have been other thoughts.
Which you only become aware of as they have already appeared in consciousness...

You are more than the little voice in your head. You are more than the small slice of awareness you call "I". You are your subconscious and your body.

A similar study looked at people's ability to predict whether a picture was behind Curtain #1 or Curtain #2; however, this was done on a computer, so there were no actual curtains involved.

Just like with the card study, the researchers also measured the subjects' subtle physiological responses. Remarkably, they found that the subjects' bodies were able to predict the correct curtain 2-3 seconds before the computer had even decided which curtain to use.

In both of these studies, the subjects did not always follow through with what their sweaty palms were telling them, even though the slightly sweaty palms were most always right. In fact, their palms actually had the ability to predict the future by about 2-3 seconds."

How is this physically possible? I think either the study is bunk or there's something fishy going on here. How can human awareness transcend causality?


[QUOTE="BigYellowLemon, post: 222452, member: 4411"]

Imo, we are extremely limited, everything is predetermined, and consciousness is an illusion.

Think about atoms or particles. Do they have free will? No, they move based on what pushes them.

Now think about the brain. The brain is composed of atoms/particles/matter. All of which lack free will.

So where does the free will come from?

None of the particles are choosing where to go, they are pushed by others, which were pushed by others, etc.

Every neuron is composed of particles. Every cell, every mitochondria.
[/QUOTE]

Atoms and particles are a red herring. Like platos cave allegory you focus on the shadows and mistake them for reality because you cannot see behind the veil.

It is the energy that animates these atoms and particles that chooses where they go. It is this same energy that is responsible for consciousness and free will.

Inert matter isn't alive and it isn't conscious. Electricity on the other hand...

 

[Regina]

Yes. You choose your thoughts by controlling what you think about. Your 'subconcious' flashes thoughts in your brain and the ones you rimunate over stick and come around again. Your 'subconcious' is a neural network and you're teaching it to think for you every-time you obsess over something.


All the time. You teach your brain what thoughts you like and it does the thinking for you.



Thinking isn't a multiple choice question or choosing a brand of snacks at the store. Your brain is a highly advanced neural network. Think of it like a tank. You are in control, yes, but you do not manually turn ever wheel and pump every piston. All that is done in the background, outside of your awareness, so you can focus on where you want to go.

This does not mean you are not in the drivers seat.



No. You can drive a car not knowing what turn you will make 5 seconds from now. You don't control the traffic and you don't control the drivers around you.


You are more than the little voice in your head. You are more than the small slice of awareness you call "I". You are your subconscious and your body.



How is this physically possible? I think either the study is bunk or there's something fishy going on here. How can human awareness transcend causality?




Atoms and particles are a red herring. Like platos cave allegory you focus on the shadows and mistake them for reality because you cannot see behind the veil.

It is the energy that animates these atoms and particles that chooses where they go. It is this same energy that is responsible for consciousness and free will.

Inert matter isn't alive and it isn't conscious. Electricity on the other hand...

I like the "you don't control the drivers around you."