Studies that say "Unvaccinated people were 11 times more likely to die of covid" etc?

[wealthofwisdom]

I haven't taken the vaccine and I don't plan to unless I absolutely have to for some reason (which I intend doesn't happen).

This thread is to discuss all of the claims I keep seeing like:

Unvaccinated face 11 times risk of death from delta variant, CDC​

and

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS​

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS

Out of 51,000 Covid deaths in England between January and July, only 256 occurred after two doses.

www.bbc.com

and

Utah’s coronavirus deaths have overwhelmingly befallen the unvaccinated. Of nearly 1,200 Utahns who have died since Jan. 1, only 80 were fully vaccinated, according to the Utah Department of Health.

When unvaccinated Utahns die, loved ones are left to process blame, defensiveness, and regrets

Utahns describe their reactions after unvaccinated family members died from COVID-19.

www.sltrib.com

etc, etc...

Are they manipulating the data? I would love to hear logical counterarguments presenting data to the contrary of this narrative we keep hearing about higher deaths amongst unvaccinated.

I'm hoping to have a thread that will present good factual arguments (as opposed to just claiming everything is a lie). I want to be prepared when somebody brings up something like this to me. Thoughts?.

 

[Peatness]

It's like a snake chasing its tail

 

[Jam]

It is quite easy for them to pull such misinformation off when only people that are 2 weeks post 2nd shot are counted as "vaccinated". Everyone else is "unvaccinated". Many who suffer severe adverse events, or get COVID (or anything else, for that matter), in the 2 or more months in-between their 1st and 2nd (+2 weeks) shot are counted as "unvaccinated" COVID hospitalizations/deaths...

 

[Peatness]

It is quite easy for them to pull such misinformation off when only people that are 2 weeks post 2nd shot are counted as "vaccinated". Everyone else is "unvaccinated". Many who suffer severe adverse events, or get COVID (or anything else, for that matter), in the 2 or more months in-between their 1st and 2nd (+2 weeks) shot are counted as "unvaccinated" COVID hospitalizations/deaths...

View: https://twitter.com/DGrouf/status/1439962246306742279

 

[Jam]

View: https://twitter.com/DGrouf/status/1439962246306742279

?

 

[PxD]

I haven't taken the vaccine and I don't plan to unless I absolutely have to for some reason (which I intend doesn't happen).

This thread is to discuss all of the claims I keep seeing like:

Unvaccinated face 11 times risk of death from delta variant, CDC​

and

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS​

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS

Out of 51,000 Covid deaths in England between January and July, only 256 occurred after two doses.

www.bbc.com

and

Utah’s coronavirus deaths have overwhelmingly befallen the unvaccinated. Of nearly 1,200 Utahns who have died since Jan. 1, only 80 were fully vaccinated, according to the Utah Department of Health.

When unvaccinated Utahns die, loved ones are left to process blame, defensiveness, and regrets

Utahns describe their reactions after unvaccinated family members died from COVID-19.

www.sltrib.com

etc, etc...

Are they manipulating the data? I would love to hear logical counterarguments presenting data to the contrary of this narrative we keep hearing about higher deaths amongst unvaccinated.

I'm hoping to have a thread that will present good factual arguments (as opposed to just claiming everything is a lie). I want to be prepared when somebody brings up something like this to me. Thoughts?.

1) Public Health England publishes regular reports on "SARS-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation." They list data on hospitalization and death by age and vaccination status. Their last couple of reports have shown that at least for Delta variant the majority of hospitalizations and deaths since Feb 2021 are in the vaccinated (over 65%). Given that some 65% or so of the total population is vaccinated, this means vaccines have virtually zero efficacy against Delta. Here is a sample report: https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf

Scroll to pages 18 and 19 to see the numbers.

2) Israeli govt also publishes data on hospitalizations and deaths and even with vaccination rate of 80% and a high vaccination rate already back in Feb/March of 2021 they nevertheless had a wave of infections, hospitalizations, and deaths this summer, 80% of which were in the vaccinated. So, again, virtually useless. If you do some Internet searching, you can find translations from the original Hebrew of the daily infections/hospitalizations/deaths updates from their ministry of health, for the last couple of months, and see for yourself.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Both of these countries have very good data sets because the samples sizes are large, in the hundreds of thousands if not millions, and the data was uniformly collected by a single organization (NHS in the UK and whatever the national health agency is called in Israel).

3) Herd immunity. In highly vaccinated countries like Iceland, Israel, and the UK, the recent spikes in infections and deaths CANNOT be in the unvaccinated only, if the vaccines are effective, because vaccinated individuals act like roadblocks that increase the distance the virus has to travel to transmit and make it that much harder for the virus to keep infecting vulnerable people. This is the whole concept behind herd immunity. As an analogy, if you have a room with 10 people randomly located within it, and a virus that cannot infect and transmit from 8 of them who are vaccinated, it becomes much harder or even almost impossible for the virus to reach the 2 unvaccinated individuals.

I know that the vaccines are not claimed to prevent transmission or infection, but still, this has to count for something. If these things are effective at all, they should be blunting transmission due to lower viral loads in the vaccinated infected, which confers some protection to the unvaccinated as well...so we should be seeing falling case counts and hospitalizations/deaths as more and more people get vaxxed. Instead, we get a new wave of hospitalizations and deaths. This is suspicious to me.

4) Regarding the Utah article, pay attention, because this is a textbook example of dogsh*t mainstream media playing games with words and numbers to tell lies.

Here is a link to a time series of case counts in Utah. Note that the majority of deaths in 2021 occurred in January and February.
Utah COVID: 490,985 Cases and 2,787 Deaths - Worldometer (scroll to bottom)

Here is a link to a time series of vaccination doses administered in Utah. https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/vaccines.html ("Vaccine administration by date" graph.) Note that immunity from vaccines is not achieved until about a month after the 2nd dose. You also have to wait 2-4 weeks between doses, if it's Pfizer or Moderna, which most are.

So, it is clear from the 2nd graph that immunity from vaccines (meaning both doses, plus a month of waiting time) didn't reach any meaningful level until well into March, which is AFTER the majority of Covid deaths in 2021 year-to-date in Utah had ALREADY occurred. So, of course the majority of deaths will be the unvaccinated - they should be! The two who wrote that piece are comparing apples and oranges, I don't know if out of stupidity (hey, they're journalists) or bad faith (gotta push the narrative you're being paid to push). They should be tarred and feathered for writing pieces like this.

 

[Perry Staltic]

View: https://twitter.com/IrvSchmecklerMD/status/1439955048105054214

 

[wealthofwisdom]

Wow, well that took me down a rabbit hole, and I found this very interesting video from a Food and Drug Administration vaccine advisory committee:

FDA experts reveal the Covid-19 Vaccines are killing at least 2 people for every 1 life they save as they vote 16 – 2 against the approval of booster shots

FDA experts have unexpectedly voted against approving Covid-19 vaccination boosters for anyone over the age of 16 in the USA, citing a lack of long term data and stating that the risks do not outwe…

theexpose.uk

"Life ratio is UNACCEPTABLE’. The slide shows how many excess deaths were required following vaccination to save one life due to Covid-19."

 

[mariantos]

I haven't taken the vaccine and I don't plan to unless I absolutely have to for some reason (which I intend doesn't happen).

This thread is to discuss all of the claims I keep seeing like:

Unvaccinated face 11 times risk of death from delta variant, CDC​

and

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS​

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS

Out of 51,000 Covid deaths in England between January and July, only 256 occurred after two doses.

www.bbc.com

and

Utah’s coronavirus deaths have overwhelmingly befallen the unvaccinated. Of nearly 1,200 Utahns who have died since Jan. 1, only 80 were fully vaccinated, according to the Utah Department of Health.

When unvaccinated Utahns die, loved ones are left to process blame, defensiveness, and regrets

Utahns describe their reactions after unvaccinated family members died from COVID-19.

www.sltrib.com

etc, etc...

Are they manipulating the data? I would love to hear logical counterarguments presenting data to the contrary of this narrative we keep hearing about higher deaths amongst unvaccinated.

I'm hoping to have a thread that will present good factual arguments (as opposed to just claiming everything is a lie). I want to be prepared when somebody brings up something like this to me. Thoughts?.

Listen please, some good factual arguments!

Funeral director seeing lots of vaccine deaths.
View: https://www.bitchute.com/video/LzuQ28i22ZSr/

 

[PxD]

Wow, well that took me down a rabbit hole, and I found this very interesting video from a Food and Drug Administration vaccine advisory committee:

FDA experts reveal the Covid-19 Vaccines are killing at least 2 people for every 1 life they save as they vote 16 – 2 against the approval of booster shots

FDA experts have unexpectedly voted against approving Covid-19 vaccination boosters for anyone over the age of 16 in the USA, citing a lack of long term data and stating that the risks do not outwe…

theexpose.uk

"Life ratio is UNACCEPTABLE’. The slide shows how many excess deaths were required following vaccination to save one life due to Covid-19."

In looking at this I thought to myself the VAERS row showing the 2:1 ratio can't possibly be right, but after doing some back of the envelope math:

From the original Pfizer and Moderna studies, NNT to prevent an infection is estimated at around 100 +/- 20. Let's say 100 on average.

160 million people vaccinated (treated) in the USA right now means 160 million / 100 = 1.6 million infections prevented.

1.6 million infections, at a case fatality rate of 0.5% or so would be 8,000 deaths prevented.

Meanwhile, VAERS currently shows 16k deaths, if I recall correctly (and that number is likely underreported). So that is indeed 2 excess deaths from vaccination for every life saved from Covid. Wow.

Can someone check my math/logic here? I still find this incredible.

 

[abnerdoubleday]

In looking at this I thought to myself the VAERS row showing the 2:1 ratio can't possibly be right, but after doing some back of the envelope math:

From the original Pfizer and Moderna studies, NNT to prevent an infection is estimated at around 100 +/- 20. Let's say 100 on average.

160 million people vaccinated (treated) in the USA right now means 160 million / 100 = 1.6 million infections prevented.

1.6 million infections, at a case fatality rate of 0.5% or so would be 8,000 deaths prevented.

Meanwhile, VAERS currently shows 16k deaths, if I recall correctly (and that number is likely underreported). So that is indeed 2 excess deaths from vaccination for every life saved from Covid. Wow.

Can someone check my math/logic here? I still find this incredible.

would you not need to factor in the supposed infection-severity mitigation?

 

[PxD]

would you not need to factor in the supposed infection-severity mitigation?

I guess that would paint a more complete picture and it would weigh in favor of the vaccines. I don't have that data off the top of my head though.

Even so, regardless of whatever good infection severity mitigation is doing, the mortality comparison of vaccine lives lost vs Covid deaths prevented doesn't look good for mRNA vaccines, if my numbers are correct.

Edit: I think something like 5% of cases end up needing treatment? Assuming that the vaccines are 100% efficient at preventing hospitalization (and they're not, I'm being overly generous), then 1.6 million cases prevented means 80,000 hospital treatments for Covid prevented (at most).

 

[RealNeat]

View: https://twitter.com/DGrouf/status/1439962246306742279

Not sure if studies differ in classification but from my understanding a person who is <14 days into their second shot is not classified as unvaccinated but rather "partially vaccinated." Do they make that distinction in their reporting and distinguish them from unvaccinated idk.

 

[Birdie]

Wow, well that took me down a rabbit hole, and I found this very interesting video from a Food and Drug Administration vaccine advisory committee:

FDA experts reveal the Covid-19 Vaccines are killing at least 2 people for every 1 life they save as they vote 16 – 2 against the approval of booster shots

FDA experts have unexpectedly voted against approving Covid-19 vaccination boosters for anyone over the age of 16 in the USA, citing a lack of long term data and stating that the risks do not outwe…

theexpose.uk

"Life ratio is UNACCEPTABLE’. The slide shows how many excess deaths were required following vaccination to save one life due to Covid-19."

I have seen nothing that convinces me that vaccines have saved any people.

 

[Birdie]

Not sure if studies differ in classification but from my understanding a person who is <14 days into their second shot is not classified as unvaccinated but rather "partially vaccinated." Do they make that distinction in their reporting and distinguish them from unvaccinated idk.

Once in a great while I see the term "partially vaccinated" used but not in say, a graph or a chart of hospital cases or graphs of deaths in a country.

 

[Birdie]

I haven't taken the vaccine and I don't plan to unless I absolutely have to for some reason (which I intend doesn't happen).

This thread is to discuss all of the claims I keep seeing like:

Unvaccinated face 11 times risk of death from delta variant, CDC​

and

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS​

Covid deaths rare among fully vaccinated - ONS

Out of 51,000 Covid deaths in England between January and July, only 256 occurred after two doses.

www.bbc.com

and

Utah’s coronavirus deaths have overwhelmingly befallen the unvaccinated. Of nearly 1,200 Utahns who have died since Jan. 1, only 80 were fully vaccinated, according to the Utah Department of Health.

When unvaccinated Utahns die, loved ones are left to process blame, defensiveness, and regrets

Utahns describe their reactions after unvaccinated family members died from COVID-19.

www.sltrib.com

etc, etc...

Are they manipulating the data? I would love to hear logical counterarguments presenting data to the contrary of this narrative we keep hearing about higher deaths amongst unvaccinated.

I'm hoping to have a thread that will present good factual arguments (as opposed to just claiming everything is a lie). I want to be prepared when somebody brings up something like this to me. Thoughts?.

Since your initial question regards studies, it might be good to list a few of the studies you refer to. I didn't read your comment thoroughly so I might have missed the studies but it looks like simple fake news reports.

 

[Mauritio]

1) Public Health England publishes regular reports on "SARS-2 variants of concern and variants under investigation." They list data on hospitalization and death by age and vaccination status. Their last couple of reports have shown that at least for Delta variant the majority of hospitalizations and deaths since Feb 2021 are in the vaccinated (over 65%). Given that some 65% or so of the total population is vaccinated, this means vaccines have virtually zero efficacy against Delta. Here is a sample report: https://assets.publishing.service.g...t_data/file/1009243/Technical_Briefing_20.pdf

Scroll to pages 18 and 19 to see the numbers.

2) Israeli govt also publishes data on hospitalizations and deaths and even with vaccination rate of 80% and a high vaccination rate already back in Feb/March of 2021 they nevertheless had a wave of infections, hospitalizations, and deaths this summer, 80% of which were in the vaccinated. So, again, virtually useless. If you do some Internet searching, you can find translations from the original Hebrew of the daily infections/hospitalizations/deaths updates from their ministry of health, for the last couple of months, and see for yourself.

Science | AAAS

www.science.org

Both of these countries have very good data sets because the samples sizes are large, in the hundreds of thousands if not millions, and the data was uniformly collected by a single organization (NHS in the UK and whatever the national health agency is called in Israel).

3) Herd immunity. In highly vaccinated countries like Iceland, Israel, and the UK, the recent spikes in infections and deaths CANNOT be in the unvaccinated only, if the vaccines are effective, because vaccinated individuals act like roadblocks that increase the distance the virus has to travel to transmit and make it that much harder for the virus to keep infecting vulnerable people. This is the whole concept behind herd immunity. As an analogy, if you have a room with 10 people randomly located within it, and a virus that cannot infect and transmit from 8 of them who are vaccinated, it becomes much harder or even almost impossible for the virus to reach the 2 unvaccinated individuals.

I know that the vaccines are not claimed to prevent transmission or infection, but still, this has to count for something. If these things are effective at all, they should be blunting transmission due to lower viral loads in the vaccinated infected, which confers some protection to the unvaccinated as well...so we should be seeing falling case counts and hospitalizations/deaths as more and more people get vaxxed. Instead, we get a new wave of hospitalizations and deaths. This is suspicious to me.

4) Regarding the Utah article, pay attention, because this is a textbook example of dogsh*t mainstream media playing games with words and numbers to tell lies.

Here is a link to a time series of case counts in Utah. Note that the majority of deaths in 2021 occurred in January and February.
Utah COVID: 490,985 Cases and 2,787 Deaths - Worldometer (scroll to bottom)

Here is a link to a time series of vaccination doses administered in Utah. https://coronavirus-dashboard.utah.gov/vaccines.html ("Vaccine administration by date" graph.) Note that immunity from vaccines is not achieved until about a month after the 2nd dose. You also have to wait 2-4 weeks between doses, if it's Pfizer or Moderna, which most are.

So, it is clear from the 2nd graph that immunity from vaccines (meaning both doses, plus a month of waiting time) didn't reach any meaningful level until well into March, which is AFTER the majority of Covid deaths in 2021 year-to-date in Utah had ALREADY occurred. So, of course the majority of deaths will be the unvaccinated - they should be! The two who wrote that piece are comparing apples and oranges, I don't know if out of stupidity (hey, they're journalists) or bad faith (gotta push the narrative you're being paid to push). They should be tarred and feathered for writing pieces like this.

Great work ?

 

[Peatness]

Great work ?

Mike Yeadon thinks the delta variant is the variant that has been we us all along and is no more dangerous. How are they isolating these variants in hospitals?

 

[Doc Sandoz]

Mike Yeadon thinks the delta variant is the variant that has been we us all along and is no more dangerous. How are they isolating these variants in hospitals?

Natural immunity will take care of any variant. The vaxxes only the single one for which they were designed. What a treasure trove of booster income that will make for Big Pharma.

 

[Peatness]

What a treasure trove of booster income that will make for Big Pharma.

That was the plan all along