TubZy

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OK, if anybody tries the progesterone + androgen combo and shared feedback please let me know.

Sure, I'm not a good candidate as I'm on RU st the moment and responding great, but I'll let some of the other guys, know if they haven't seen this post already.

Prog + DHT would be interesting to try.
 

TubZy

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Sure, I'm not a good candidate as I'm on RU st the moment and responding great, but I'll let some of the other guys, know if they haven't seen this post already.

Prog + DHT would be interesting to try.

P.S. if you don't do well with the prog + andro route.. maybe should consider coming out with RU486 for rats only haha
 
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haidut

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P.S. if you don't do well with the prog + andro route.. maybe should consider coming out with RU486 for rats only haha

Thought about it in the past but don't like the molecular structure of RU486. Too much potential for toxicity and the long term studies on humans did find some issues. I have to find something safer as a GR antagonist (aside from pregnenolone/progesterone/DHEA). Have used personally pregnenolone-16a-carbonitrile which Selye used for many of his studies on "catatoxic" steroids. Peat thinks it is OK but not optimal, and that pregnenolone is better. There are few other steroids with the pregnenolone structure which are GR antagonists, so I have to convince the lab to synthesize them so I can try.
 

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This might be a bit off topic. When you stress, cortisol increase and then DHT. Is it possible to get more body hair this way? Or is solely DHT responsible for body hair, or the cortisol DHT combo? I'm not putting this in a positive light.
 

moriwatzi

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Thought about it in the past but don't like the molecular structure of RU486. Too much potential for toxicity and the long term studies on humans did find some issues. I have to find something safer as a GR antagonist (aside from pregnenolone/progesterone/DHEA).

What would you recommend to make progesterone sensitive again after Accutane? I have used an entire bottle of Progestene (in SFA) in a single day and felt nothing special. This is clearly not normal for a man.
 

vulture

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I think the dose matters a lot. If you notice, the dose used for RU486 in the PFS thread is also quite a bit lower than the one used for Cushing syndrome. If you use 600mg+ of RU486 as it is used in that condition I think the pro-libido effects will disappear. In that dose RU486 behaves like a progestin and starts to oppose estrogen as well as much as gbolduev does not want to admit it. Same with progesterone - a dose of under 50mg for a male seems to be best. In higher doses because it can also bind the androgen receptor, progesterone can compete with endogenous androgens and become anti-androgenic. A weaker androgen agonist (aka progesterone) competing with stronger androgens for receptor binding behaves as an antiandrogen. Here is an example related to DHEA but the same applies to proegsterone as it is also an AR agonist.
Dehydroepiandrosterone - Wikipedia
"...Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen. However, its affinity for the receptor is very low, and for that reason, is unlikely to be of much significance under normal circumstances."

So, again, the dose makes the poison. Progesterone dose should probably stay under 50mg for a male unless combined with a strong androgen like DHT, androsterone, etc. gbolduev said to combine progesterone + T but there is no need to do that actually as T is a progestin itself. As I mentioned in a few other threads arguing with tyw, most synthetic progestins are 19-nortestosterone derivatives and are agonist at PR. So is T for that matter. See below for more info.
Wooo's "Progesterone, The Master Hormone Myth"

In summary, if progesterone is used I would stay at a lower dose for a male and combine with a strong androgen when possible, to avoid behaving like an anti-androgen. DHT would be best for stacking with it (IMO) but even adding DHEA or androsterone should work. In fact, IMO an optimal OTC stack would be progesterone + dhea + androsterone as I mentioned in the original thread.
Sadly right now I can't add anything useful to what you said in the very first post and also this one, but I really hope I can try that stack on my rat and report with blood tests. Really exciting to read these things.
 
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haidut

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What would you recommend to make progesterone sensitive again after Accutane? I have used an entire bottle of Progestene (in SFA) in a single day and felt nothing special. This is clearly not normal for a man.

Why do you think you are insensitive to progesterone? Have you done any progesterone tests?
 

miki14

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Only if you produce enough T. If T levels are below the 50% range the body usually conserves it and does not make much DHT unless you are under stress and that is when DHT and androsterone production rises to protect the brain and other androgenic tissues.
Brain and Serum Androsterone Is Elevated in Response to Stress in Rats with Mild Traumatic Brain Injury. - PubMed - NCBI

I wonder if this might play into stress searching behavior with some people? I bring myself into stressful situations a lot and I suspect that I need the stress, I perform and feel better under stress, the flip side is that I crash afterwards. But too much of a good time makes me miserable and I set myself up for conflict/stress again. Do I force my conversion from T into dht? Need to try some dht I guess.
 
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I wonder if this might play into stress searching behavior with some people? I bring myself into stressful situations a lot and I suspect that I need the stress, I perform and feel better under stress, the flip side is that I crash afterwards. But too much of a good time makes me miserable and I set myself up for conflict/stress again. Do I force my conversion from T into dht? Need to try some dht I guess.

It is more of a sign of low metabolism. Stress, drinking, and risky behavior mask symptoms of low metabolism either by raising stress hormones or by providing a temporary surge in dopamine, which may lower cortisol sometimes.
 

miki14

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It is more of a sign of low metabolism. Stress, drinking, and risky behavior mask symptoms of low metabolism either by raising stress hormones or by providing a temporary surge in dopamine, which may lower cortisol sometimes.

My stress is more related to too much work and procrastination that forces me to be very engaged and focused. I mean stress in a very broad sense, like stimulus, emotional mental pressure.
 
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miki14

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I'm very cautious with hormones, due to mixed results with pregnenolone + dhea + dmso. The dmso discussion made me stop dmso as a solvent (but I think too much dhea>estrogen conversation was the problem). I tried pregnenolone only with some ethanol & Thorne vitamin D in mct and tocopheroles. I never felt anything from vitamin D, albeit I suffer from winter blues but I hoped the tocopheroles & mct might help with the topical absorption of preg and I would to get rid of that useless vit d supp. The combination of pregnenolone and vitamin d was very, strongly androgenic, actually more then preg+dhea. I think you @haidut wrote that Vit D is anti estrogenic and at least daylight (and hence vit D??) is very cortisol lowering. There you might have your most anticatabolic/anabolic supplement. Probably the safest too.
 
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I'm very cautious with hormones, due to mixed results with pregnenolone + dhea + dmso. The dmso discussion made me stop dmso as a solvent (but I think to much dhea>estrogen conversation was the problem). I tried pregnenolone only with some ethanol & Thorne vitamin D in mct and tocopheroles. I never felt anything from vitamin D, albeit I suffer from winter blues but I hoped the tocopheroles & mct might help with the topical absorption of preg and I would to get rid of that useless vit d supp. The combination of pregnenolone and vitamin d was very, strongly androgenic, actually more then preg+dhea. I think you @haidut wrote that Vit D is anti estrogenic and at least daylight (and hence vit D??) is very cortisol lowering. There you might have your most anticatabolic/anabolic supplement. Probably the safest too.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestion. Yes, a few other people reported that taking any of the steroids with EstroBan (which has vitamin D) potentiated the effects several-fold even if the steroid dose was low. Vitamin D increase androgen receptor sensitivity in addition to lowering cortisol/estrogen, so the effects you experienced are definitely to be expected. Have you tried vitamin D + DHEA?
 

miki14

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Thanks for the feedback and suggestion. Yes, a few other people reported that taking any of the steroids with EstroBan (which has vitamin D) potentiated the effects several-fold even if the steroid dose was low. Vitamin D increase androgen receptor sensitivity in addition to lowering cortisol/estrogen, so the effects you experienced are definitely to be expected. Have you tried vitamin D + DHEA?

Yes, once a week 2,4 mg of Dhea + preg + vitamin D but only if well feed and rested. And the last times there was almost no effect. Dhea converts into estrogen too easily and it is losing all its benefits and I suspect it promotes inflammation in the knee. My darling is preg+vit D it works well when stressed.
 
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Wagner83

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Thanks for the feedback and suggestion. Yes, a few other people reported that taking any of the steroids with EstroBan (which has vitamin D) potentiated the effects several-fold even if the steroid dose was low. Vitamin D increase androgen receptor sensitivity in addition to lowering cortisol/estrogen, so the effects you experienced are definitely to be expected. Have you tried vitamin D + DHEA?
Would that be oral? I feel a lot more effects from oral estroban but other steroids are better topically I think.
 

Dhair

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Would that be oral? I feel a lot more effects from oral estroban but other steroids are better topically I think.
I have wondered about this too. I don't think it matters, but I think it's best to use both with the same method of administration at the same time.
I know that Ray takes all of his vitamins topically, but he also says vitamin D can easily wash off and takes a long time to fully absorb. Danny Roddy wraps some gauze or a piece of cloth around the area where he applies vitamin D for that very reason. Seems like a lot of work to get your daily vitamin D, but I do know that a lot people claim to have digestive problems from taking it orally.
 

DHT

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This might be a bit off topic. When you stress, cortisol increase and then DHT. Is it possible to get more body hair this way? Or is solely DHT responsible for body hair, or the cortisol DHT combo? I'm not putting this in a positive light.
stress or cortisol doenst mean that it lead it directly to DHT . In my experience it must be hard exercise which activates the CNS this leads to high DHT response. Best activity is squats, deadlifts, sprinting, cold showers and 1 vs 1 physicial confrontation. Things which lead to high stress responsible which is to fight or flee

BTW thats why coffe leads to higher DHT because it activates CNS soo good improves your energy or T3 which leads to higher testosterone
 

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@DHT
In my experience squat, bench, deadlift didn't do much for my DHT over the years. Just recently I noticed increased DHT when training much more intense, and it doesnt even have to be heavy weight.
Guess it could be a combination between cold showers, intense training, creatine and caffeine.
 

rw39

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@DHT
In my experience squat, bench, deadlift didn't do much for my DHT over the years. Just recently I noticed increased DHT when training much more intense, and it doesnt even have to be heavy weight.
Guess it could be a combination between cold showers, intense training, creatine and caffeine.



can you run down your training real quick?
 

Hans

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@rw39
I do a split program, train each muscle group with a few exercises. I pick exercises to bring out muscles where I feel I'm lagging. I want to keep the specifics confidential, but all I can say is I now rest much shorter and it's working very well.
 

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