Structural Requirements For An Optimal Anti-Catabolic Steroid

[Wagner83]

Another possibility aside from progesterone occupying androgen receptors - progesterone can compete with testosterone for the activity of 5a-reductase in higher doses.

"It is doubtful, however, that T+P inhibits lordosis directly through increased levels of DHT, or a product of DHT, because the formation of DHT from T is actually decreased in the presence of P due to competition by T and P for the 5a-reductase enzyme (Massa, Stupnicka, Kniewald, and Martini, 1972)."

The transformation of testosterone into dihydrotestosterone by the brain and the anterior pituitary

"Although there are many possibilities, the inhibition of lordosis by DHT most likely requires binding to androgen receptors (Coyotupa et al., 1972; Blasberg et al., 1998). Estrogen increases androgen receptor (AR) levels and the duration of AR occupation by DHT in the male (Handa, Roselli, Horton, and Resko, 1987; Roselli and Fasasi, 1992), but this action of estrogen does not appear to explain the T+P-induced inhibition because lordosis was still significantly reduced in T+P- compared to T-treated males when no estrogen was administered Another possibility is that the P treatment in some manner upregulated ARs, resulting in a greater responsiveness to DHT. Since the upregulation of ARs would not have been expressed as a reduction of lordosis unless DHT was also present, this hypothesis is consistent with the fact that both T (as a substrate for DHT) and P were required to observe an effect. As pointed out by Crews, Godwin Hartman, Grammer, Prediger, and Sheppherd (1996), at first glance this hypothesis seems to contradict studies showing that T and P can compete with each other for binding with receptors, that P can have anti-androgenic actions, and that P can deplete nuclear ARs, but the doses of P used in these studies were pharmacological (Connolly and Resko, 1989). Indeed, although studied in a different context (that of T and P acting alone or in synergy to elicit male-typical behaviors in lizards and rats (Lindzey and Crews, 1988; Young, Greenberg, and Crews, 1991; Witt et al., 1995)), intracranial implants of P can increase the abundance of AR mRNA in the brain of male whiptail lizards (Crews et al., 1996), and male progesterone receptor knockout mice are less responsive to testosterone replacement on measures of male copulatory behavior (Phelps, Lydon, O’Malley, and Crews, 1998). To our knowledge, no other research pertinent to this issue has been performed."

Inhibition of lordosis behavior in male and female rats by androgens and progesterone.

Do you think the increase in ARs density when progesterone is used is explained by your first quote ? Dht being the strongest androgen, if prog reduces dht levels then the body may adapt and increase ARs as a result, on its own could be too estrogenic.
I think haidut and @AretnaP posted information suggesting dht and androgens tend to increase androgenicity in a positive circle (dht increases 5ar etc..).

 

[cyclops]

Quote from RP interview with Lana Burman, Your Own Health & Fitness Talk Show:

"On the way up the scale towards protecting everything progesterone is also protective against salt imbalance and imbalance of the sex steroids. That means it protects your thymus and immune system against destruction by stress hormones or the sex hormones. So it’s extremely important in the sense of being protective but it also neutralizes the male hormone. At a very low level in men it begins to neutralize the testosterone, so a man needs to be conscious there is this deadly rising protective function and if they don’t want to be protected against having whiskers and other typically male traits they don’t want to take more than just a very few milligrams a day. Two or three milligrams a day is about enough to offer general protection without neutralizing them sexually.

Men can still function with their testosterone highly neutralized – they feel like they have just come out of a cold shower but the brain still knows how to make everything function. It doesn’t really prevent potency. At a very moderate dose it will shrink an enlarged prostrate." RP

I wonder if even one drop of idea labs progestene is too much for a man then. At least the one in DMSO because supposedly it is 10x more powerful that way.

 

[Braveheart]

I wonder if even one drop of idea labs progestene is too much for a man then. At least the one in DMSO because supposedly it is 10x more powerful that way.

Maybe he is talking about young people? He is taking 15mg...but he is 80.

 

[haidut]

Maybe he is talking about young people? He is taking 15mg...but he is 80.

As he said on those emails, he does not know how much of the 15mg gets absorbed but he thinks it is 20%-30%. So, he gets a systemic dose of under 5mg daily basically. His quote about 2mg-3mg for males daily is probably assuming it all gets absorbed, which can happen with oral progesterone in tocopherol/MCT.

 

[raypeatclips]

As he said on those emails, he does not know how much of the 15mg gets absorbed but he thinks it is 20%-30%. So, he gets a systemic dose of under 5mg daily basically. His quote about 2mg-3mg for males daily is probably assuming it all gets absorbed, which can happen with oral progesterone in tocopherol/MCT.

A recent email exchange with Peat he said to me he didn't think pregnenolone was absorbed topically well at all, regardless of the carrier being oil, ethanol or DMSO. He said taken orally it is very well absorbed. Do you agree with the topical pregnenolone comments?

 

[Braveheart]

As he said on those emails, he does not know how much of the 15mg gets absorbed but he thinks it is 20%-30%. So, he gets a systemic dose of under 5mg daily basically. His quote about 2mg-3mg for males daily is probably assuming it all gets absorbed, which can happen with oral progesterone in tocopherol/MCT.

Thank you for clearing this up...

 

[Risingfire]

@haidut I started taking oxandrolone 20-30 mgs a day. I'm under the impression that this causes suppression, though I haven't seen any in a few days. Do you think tocovit will be a good pct?

You mentioned that clomid is toxic and should be avoided. Even if I was to take small doses, is it still toxic at that point?

 

[haidut]

@haidut I started taking oxandrolone 20-30 mgs a day. I'm under the impression that this causes suppression, though I haven't seen any in a few days. Do you think tocovit will be a good pct?

You mentioned that clomid is toxic and should be avoided. Even if I was to take small doses, is it still toxic at that point?

I think this is too high of a dose and even in 15mg doses was found to lower endogenous T levels by ~40%.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/84/8/2705/2864236
http://ergo-log.com/15-mg-oxandrolone-every-day-for-5-days.html

For most people 10mg is plenty, especially if combined with an aromatizable steroids like DHEA/progesterone. The 15mg, 20mg and 30mg doses are typically used on people with severe burns or massive cachexia due to cancer/HIV because those people the complete suppression does not matter much compared to saving their life.

 

[Risingfire]

I think this is too high of a dose and even in 15mg doses was found to lower endogenous T levels by ~40%.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/84/8/2705/2864236
http://ergo-log.com/15-mg-oxandrolone-every-day-for-5-days.html

For most people 10mg is plenty, especially if combined with an aromatizable steroids like DHEA/progesterone. The 15mg, 20mg and 30mg doses are typically used on people with severe burns or massive cachexia due to cancer/HIV because those people the complete suppression does not matter much compared to saving their life.

Do you think it makes more sense to split the 10 mg's into two doses or 1 dose is fine?

Thanks for your help!

 

[haidut]

Do you think it makes more sense to split the 10 mg's into two doses or 1 dose is fine?

Thanks for your help!

Given that its half life is about 12 hours then taking 5mg x 2 day may achieve the same effects as the 10mg dose but with less risk of side effects. Again, combining with DHEA/progesterone may amplify the results and lower the risk of side effects.

 

[meatbag]

I wonder if even one drop of idea labs progestene is too much for a man then. At least the one in DMSO because supposedly it is 10x more powerful that way.

I think a person has to experiment. I've been using huge amounts of progest-e and progestene and haven't noticed reduced beard growth or anything. I was going to keep trying the high doses until I noticed my facial hair stopped so I try to shave every morning since Ray said he determined his limit with this method. Frankly it seems to be growing even faster.

 

[Jsaute21]

I posted exactly the same for a steroid cycle in PFS thread a week ago. I said that if anyone would take steroids, they should take testosterone with progesterone. Since taking testosterone alone will tank 3 beta hsd. taking androsterone inhibits 5 alpha reductase that is why it works for PFS. I am anti Peat , I dont take any ideas from Peat

I block cortisol( or increase the need for it) to increase it sensitivity . Peat says cortisol is evil. and to lower it.I want cortisol to be more sensitive. DHEA does not block cortisol. It lowers pregnenolone conversions. Thus tanks the whole glucocorticoid branch. Thus many people crash on it and get hypokalemia.

Progesterone binds to cortisol receptors and activates glutamine synthase only at 21% of cortisol but agonizes cortisol receptors. That is why in cortisol deficiency , you get anxiety. this is understandable, since exogenous progesterone or progestins lower 3 beta hsd and zinc, and zinc is needed for glutamine synthase as active b6 depends on it.

Many women use progesterone to lose their muscular hands, progesterone will tank testosterone = NO MUSCLES

There is no anabolic supplement. Some people need more catabolism and some people need more anabolism. Read Revici work, some cancers are in anabolism and some in catabolism.

All you guys do here is opposite of what Peat says. You block cortisol, you make it more sensitive( I SAY THAT). It is not like you constantly block it to zero. Just block it to zero and live with it. YOU will die. Block serotonin to zero and live with it. You will die from it.

You are doing completely opposite of what you are saying. Your are blocking cortisol for a week. This makes it super sensitive. Then you get off and dont take the supplement. This is what fasting does.

You block serotonin receptor , then you get off the supplement. Serotonin becomes MORE not less.

And now you claim the opposite. LOL NO it is not me stealing the ideas, it is you will be stealing mine soon and spinning Peat into my understanding.

I dont rec any steroids. since if you take testosterone with progesterone, this will make your zinc biounvailable and many other vitamins and minerals biounvailable/

Your PH regulation will be screwed up. since zinc is used in many enzymes.

All these steroid cycles are nonsense and will ruin your health. Even taking pregnenolone will cause problems,since when you take pregnenolone. You make iron biounavailable since you tank 450scc

When you tank your biounavailable iron, you tank your progesterone to cortisol conversion, since you need iron in 11 beta. You also tank your 5 alpha . since DHT requires iron.

So pregnenolone will cause estrogen to go up, to oppose progesterone rise from pregnenolone intake. since conversion of progesterone to cortisol goes down. If iron was there, then metabolism could have gone up. since cortisol conversion depends on IRON.


This is why no one can tolerate thyroid with low iron level. WHY? since iron is needed to convert progesterone to cortisol, and without cortisol, you will have thyroid resistance.


Zinc will increase progesterone levels, THIS INCREASES CORTISOL IN SLOW OXIDIZERS and LOWERS IT IN FAST OXIDIZERS .

Progesterone and progestins also will always act differently on the receptor depending on the cell potassium level.

Couple of questions out of curiosity, Why does this jokester say that taking androsterone will inhibit 5AR? Also, why would it be good for PFS if it inhibited 5AR? I thought the whole destruction beyond Fin is that it destroys 5Ar. Has anyone actually had hormonal dysfunction from taking preg, andro, dhea, thyroid etc?

 

[Wagner83]

Couple of questions out of curiosity, Why does this jokester say that taking androsterone will inhibit 5AR? Also, why would it be good for PFS if it inhibited 5AR? I thought the whole destruction beyond Fin is that it destroys 5Ar. Has anyone actually had hormonal dysfunction from taking preg, andro, dhea, thyroid etc?

I could be wrong but let me try, I think this is just based on contrarian endocrinology, you supplement androsterone so, for example, the body will down regulate 5-alpha-reductase since it doesn't need it anymore to convert androstenedione into androsterone (already supplied).
FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)
"and for those who still think what andro does - just look a this chart. Hormonal Charts & Pathways
as you can see andro inhibits 5 alpha reductase. Because androstenedione converts to androsterone via 5 alpha reductase."

Btw there are many older posts by haidut and mails from Ray which are very cautious about supplementing downstream steroids. Similarly haidut has spoken about preferring addressing steroids imbalances through the brain (if possible) as it is the master regulator.

 

[Jsaute21]

I could be wrong but let me try, I think this is just based on contrarian endocrinology, you supplement androsterone so, for example, the body will down regulate 5-alpha-reductase since it doesn't need it anymore to convert androstenedione into androsterone (already supplied).
FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)
"and for those who still think what andro does - just look a this chart. Hormonal Charts & Pathways
as you can see andro inhibits 5 alpha reductase. Because androstenedione converts to androsterone via 5 alpha reductase."

Btw there are many older posts by haidut and mails from Ray which are very cautious about supplementing downstream steroids. Similarly haidut has spoken about preferring addressing steroids imbalances through the brain (if possible) as it is the master regulator.

Thanks @Wagner83. When you say address through the brain, do you mean through neurotransmitter imbalances? I would tend to agree that this a safer route. Do you think taking 1-3 MG a day for a couple of weeks could contribute to this negative feedback loop you are hypothesizing? I have seen Haidut mention addressing steroid imbalances through the brain barrier, but he also often advocates for the use of androsterone, dhea and preg in moderate doses. If Andro is lowering our exogenous supply of androstendione, that would be a bummer.

 

[Wagner83]

Thanks @Wagner83. When you say address through the brain, do you mean through neurotransmitter imbalances? I would tend to agree that this a safer route. Do you think taking 1-3 MG a day for a couple of weeks could contribute to this negative feedback loop you are hypothesizing? I have seen Haidut mention addressing steroid imbalances through the brain barrier, but he also often advocates for the use of androsterone, dhea and preg in moderate doses. If Andro is lowering our exogenous supply of androstendione, that would be a bummer.

Just to clarify, these are not my ideas but what I understand from what gbol posted.
I have no idea, but Ray has warned against downstream steroids (except dht I think). I think in the past you used 1 mg three times a week, if you need 3mg a day now it's a good sign something is going in the wrong direction imo (or that you suffer from more stress).

Not long ago I had asked haidut how his line of thinking had evolved since this post:

I still believe in what I wrote in that post about brain controlling steroid production and pregnenolone, progesterone, DHEA (and now androsterone) being the only steroids worth taking on a regular basis.

Addressing issues through the gut, some exercise, sleep and environment is probably as important if not more depending on the individual. I say this because I've felt like beast at times, and no supplement was added, but all things have to fall into place, and sometimes they don't and I've not identified all the reasons (yet).

 

[Jsaute21]

Just to clarify, these are not my ideas but what I understand from what gbol posted.
I have no idea, but Ray has warned against downstream steroids (except dht I think). I think in the past you used 1 mg three times a week, if you need 3mg a day now it's a good sign something is going in the wrong direction imo (or that you suffer from more stress).

Not long ago I had asked haidut how his line of thinking had evolved since this post:

Understood. I don't need 3 MG a day. That is just the most i would ever take. I intentionally tried to avoid the Gboldulev posts but this particular one caught my eye as i like using andro sparingly.

 

[Wagner83]

Understood. I don't need 3 MG a day. That is just the most i would ever take. I intentionally tried to avoid the Gboldulev posts but this particular one caught my eye as i like using andro sparingly.

Well you've used it for a while now, how do you feel with and without it?

 

[haidut]

I could be wrong but let me try, I think this is just based on contrarian endocrinology, you supplement androsterone so, for example, the body will down regulate 5-alpha-reductase since it doesn't need it anymore to convert androstenedione into androsterone (already supplied).
FINASTERIDE: PFS MECHANISM (detailed)
"and for those who still think what andro does - just look a this chart. Hormonal Charts & Pathways
as you can see andro inhibits 5 alpha reductase. Because androstenedione converts to androsterone via 5 alpha reductase."

Btw there are many older posts by haidut and mails from Ray which are very cautious about supplementing downstream steroids. Similarly haidut has spoken about preferring addressing steroids imbalances through the brain (if possible) as it is the master regulator.

@Jsaute21 you may want to look at this too.
The problem is that nothing in that chart they have posted shows androsterone inhibiting 5-AR. And also there is evidence that both androsterone and DHT increase 5-AR activity and thus their own synthesis.
A List Of Androgens That Stimulate 5-AR Activity
DHT Stimulates Its Own Synthesis

There is also the well-known fact that strong androgens acts as pro-thyroid chemicals, increasing T4 conversion into T3 in tissues. And higher metabolic activity is known also to increase 5-AR activity and subsequently the androsterone/etiochollanolone ratio.
I have yet to see a study that shows in vitro or in vivo inhbition of 5-AR by any androgen - be that one of the 5-AR derived like androsterone/DHT or the "weaker" ones like T, androstenedione and DHEA. In fact, both T and DHEA are also known to increase 5-AR.
Not everything in the organism has a negative-feedback mechanism. Estrogen is a prime example, as it promotes its own synthesis through cortisol, inflammation, and lipolysis. So, the idea that downstream androgens will inhibit their own synthesis as kind of signal for "that's enough" is nice in theory but there is no evidence for it in practice - as far as 5-AR is concerned. Androgens can downregulate their own synthesis through the pituitary and the Leydig cells in the gonads (which express the androgen receptor for that reason).
Again, I don't want this to turn into another cross-forum argument but I would like see evidence that goes beyond a chart.

 

[Wagner83]

Perhaps a good experiment would be to test 5ar activity without supplements, then add some androsterone for a month, retest, and finally retest after a month (?) off it. Subjective well being and markers of health would be worth looking into as well.
Since strong androgens can lead to t suppression couldn't it be a clue that 5ar isn't reduced but the excess of end point androgens is addressed through lowered T? Wild uneducated guess here.
I wonder how those who used masteron and dht-like steroids feel off them over time. I'm not sure how it would compare to steroids that are metabolites of 5ar though.
This isn't much, just an in vitro study which I came across some time ago :
Regulation of androgen receptor and 5 alpha-reductase in the skin of normal and hirsute women. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Momado965]

I think the dose matters a lot. If you notice, the dose used for RU486 in the PFS thread is also quite a bit lower than the one used for Cushing syndrome. If you use 600mg+ of RU486 as it is used in that condition I think the pro-libido effects will disappear. In that dose RU486 behaves like a progestin and starts to oppose estrogen as well as much as gbolduev does not want to admit it. Same with progesterone - a dose of under 50mg for a male seems to be best. In higher doses because it can also bind the androgen receptor, progesterone can compete with endogenous androgens and become anti-androgenic. A weaker androgen agonist (aka progesterone) competing with stronger androgens for receptor binding behaves as an antiandrogen. Here is an example related to DHEA but the same applies to proegsterone as it is also an AR agonist.
Dehydroepiandrosterone - Wikipedia
"...Although it functions as an endogenous precursor to more potent androgens such as testosterone and DHT, DHEA has been found to possess some degree of androgenic activity in its own right, acting as a low affinity (Ki = 1 μM), weak partial agonist of the androgen receptor (AR). However, its intrinsic activity at the receptor is quite weak, and on account of that, due to competition for binding with full agonists like testosterone, it can actually behave more like an antagonist depending on circulating testosterone and dihydrotestosterone (DHT) levels, and hence, like an antiandrogen. However, its affinity for the receptor is very low, and for that reason, is unlikely to be of much significance under normal circumstances."

So, again, the dose makes the poison. Progesterone dose should probably stay under 50mg for a male unless combined with a strong androgen like DHT, androsterone, etc. gbolduev said to combine progesterone + T but there is no need to do that actually as T is a progestin itself. As I mentioned in a few other threads arguing with tyw, most synthetic progestins are 19-nortestosterone derivatives and are agonist at PR. So is T for that matter. See below for more info.
Wooo's "Progesterone, The Master Hormone Myth"

In summary, if progesterone is used I would stay at a lower dose for a male and combine with a strong androgen when possible, to avoid behaving like an anti-androgen. DHT would be best for stacking with it (IMO) but even adding DHEA or androsterone should work. In fact, IMO an optimal OTC stack would be progesterone + dhea + androsterone as I mentioned in the original thread.

Funny you mentioned that. Your deduction is impressive because Pine pollen has DHEA + Adrostrone + T + Androstenedione. The Chinese take a 10 gram dose.