Striving To Improve Social/Financial Status Negatively Affects Health

[Simonsays]

Put me down for some of that Procrastiban please and throw in some get up and go juice too, (ohh thats called Tyromax or something),,,ok,,,,,,now if i could just get round to ordering it.....

 

[thebigpeatowski]

now if i could just get round to ordering it.....

No sh*t....I order stuff and by the time it arrives I can no longer remember WHY I ordered it. I got 8 oz of ornithine powder in the mail today, have NO idea what it's for.

 

[Such_Saturation]

I didn't know you could sell alcohol in the street in the United States

 

[bobbybobbob]

I didn't read the study but I'm betting all this really tells you is that: A) Hard jobs with long hours demands mostly suck; B) Social status neurosis is detrimental to health.

Working hard to score a long hours but high pay job in a highly stressful bureaucracy is a bad plan, duh. Probably over 90% of paths to high income amount to prostrating yourself to one sort of corporate bureaucratic racket or another, and working crazy hours is usually part of the hazing ritual to even join the club, let alone advance.

On the other hand, if you can skip the hazing rituals pursing cash might be the best thing you could do for your health, whether you get it or not. It's all about the reward feedback loop. I would submit that if you have more entrepreneurial control and attitude it's totally different. The key is to never be beaten down into some sort of learned helplessness. Never keep working hard on something that isn't going somewhere positive and rewarding by rational calculation, but always be working hard on something.

Paul Graham is mostly a doucebag but when he first started a seed fund for software startups, in one of his blog posts he talked about watching entrepreneurial guys plucked from corporate workplaces into their own startups. He said it was like seeing lions in zoos versus watching lions in documentaries going for the kill. He talked about their entire demeanors and body language transforming. I'm too lazy to dig up the reference.

 

[artist]

I'm sure such struggle is bad for health but it beats having your kids grow up in a ghetto. They're the ones who will reap the benefits.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

I didn't know you could sell alcohol in the street in the United States

You can pay for specific one or 3-day event permits as long as your are a business with a license and a food handler's card....also depends on the venue.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

I'm sure such struggle is bad for health but it beats having your kids grow up in a ghetto. They're the ones who will reap the benefits.

I dunno about this...my kids were raised on a single income below the federal poverty level for many years. Only second-hand clothes. Not a ghetto, per se, but definitely the oldest/dumpiest house on the block. We worked on it constantly, fixing as we could afford and doing all the work ourselves.

 

[artist]

I dunno about this...my kids were raised on a single income below the federal poverty level for many years. Only second-hand clothes. Not a ghetto, per se, but definitely the oldest/dumpiest house on the block. We worked on it constantly, fixing as we could afford and doing all the work ourselves.

I'm not sure what point you're making (not being sassy just need clarification)

Living in an old house and wearing second hand clothes are not inherently stressful or unhealthy. Things that are very stressful for children are single parenthood, unhealthy food or not enough food, an unsafe neighborhood, bad/prison-like schools, exposure to gang lifestyles, addiction and the general nihilism and chaos etc. That's what I was describing when I said ghetto.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Things that are very stressful for children are single parenthood, unhealthy food or not enough food, an unsafe neighborhood, bad/prison-like schools, exposure to gang lifestyles, addiction and the general nihilism and chaos etc. That's what I was describing when I said ghetto.

Yes, they were exposed to all that....single parent, very poor food quality (past the Pull Date from Gleaners), bad schools (which is why I kept them home), massive meth operations in various dumpy neighborhood rentals, addicts breaking into our vehicle to steal loose change from the change tray, vandalism...etc. They turned out just fine despite all that...maybe better for it? I dunno.

 

[bobbybobbob]

Probably the single most important thing you can get your kids is their peer group in their teens. There's tons of research on this. You want teens around smart and cultured and competitive people. Your kids turned out fine, but they'd probably be doing much better had they gone to Phillips Academy (for argument's sake).

Living pretty well in the modern west is cheap. Money is mostly for "positional goods". I would include as *the* key positional goods everybody is working so hard for: A) Spouse; B) The neighborhood in which your kids will form friendships and be formed.

Healthy, attractive mates and good school districts ain't necessarily cheap.

 

[jaguar43]

It is a mantra we hear on TV every day - "work harder and you will live better". While that may be true in terms of financial success, it looks like that success does not come without a price. And the price is worse health due to the stress endured in order to climb the social ladder.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/04/160408183657.htm

"...They found that young adults who come from adverse backgrounds -- but also show resilience to break that pattern and achieve a higher social status -- are more likely to be unhealthy later in life than those not motivated to change their circumstances. Specifically, the researchers found that stress increased participants' risk of developing cardio-metabolic diseases, like diabetes, heart disease and stroke. The study, published in the Journal of Youth and Adolescence, relied on self-reported stress from participants to determine the cause and clinical markers including blood pressure, body mass index, glucose levels and others to determine subsequent health effects."

"...As young adults work to break the cycle of poverty or strive toward being the first in their family to go to college, they experience a disproportionate burden of stress -- and were not resilient in terms of their future health due to the combined burden of lived adversity and striving to change it. This stress is then likely to cause irreversible weathering in their body systems."

"...The findings suggest that although there may be long-term health benefits associated with increased socioeconomic status, there may also be consequences due to the subsequent mental and physical strain. The notion seems counterintuitive at first, but the relationship between stress and health risks has been shown before. This study shows the intensification of health effects for future-oriented youth with a stressful family background."

This study reminds me of another recent finding - that humans are not as resilient to stress as previously thought.
People Are A Lot Less Resilient To Stress Than Originally Thought

Robert Sapolsky had some similar conclusions in his book why zebra's don't get ulcers. He studied the social effects of bamboos and found that they had a similar social hierarchy than western adults. Recently, Ray Peat stated in his interview with herb doctors that the lower your social status is the harder it is to get out of learned helplessness. But it only took an experience in seeing someone else escape to give the energy to mobilized.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Ray Peat stated in his interview with herb doctors that the lower your social status is the harder it is to get out of learned helplessness. But it only took an experience in seeing someone else escape to give the energy to mobilized.

Interesting, I guess I can see that.

My situation was the EXACT opposite. I grew up in a very wealthy neighborhood, but as an adult I could not afford to live in my own home town, nor would I want to. The rampant materialism and display of wealth was/is still vile, in my opinion. I happily left for "greener (cheaper) pastures"....I would never want to raise my kids the way I was raised. My parents were gone, always...too busy. Working. Striving for the Almighty Dollar. Out to lunch. Pre-occupied. No time. Not interested.

I bought acreage originally and started a little farm, but divorce forced me to move to town. Certainly not ideal and definitely not my part of my plan, but you know somehow the kids turned out okay, despite the stress, poverty and poor diet.

Took a helluva a toll on me tho....but sitting here writing this, I am realizing that I don't have learned helplessness.

 

[Makrosky]

Working hard to score a long hours but high pay job in a highly stressful bureaucracy is a bad plan, duh. Probably over 90% of paths to high income amount to prostrating yourself to one sort of corporate bureaucratic racket or another, and working crazy hours is usually part of the hazing ritual to even join the club, let alone advance.

It's all about balance. It is common for people to get very depressed when they retire, or get depressed if they are in a very low-stress boring job, like some public services where everything is so slow, bureucratic and delayed (the opposite of highly stressful corporate world) that people adapt to that low energetic state and get learned helplessness from that. All of that independent of salary or financial status.

I think it depends also on the kind of person you are. Paradoxically, some people find low-stress/boring much more stressful than high stress jobs.

There has to be a balance.

 

[Drareg]

Staying within the realm of legislation will make anybody miserable, this is why the constitution was and still is very important, most legislation in western countries goes against the constitution, this is why many power mad want rid of constitutions. Your constitution requires no income taxes for example.
The constitution allows more flow, legislation has proven itself to be a cancer with time. Many older acts of legislation for example still exist that we break every day, when you read them they are ridiculous but technically you could be charged for them.
If you are worth a fortune and can afford the legal bills you can always go to the Supreme Court to claim certain acts of legislation are unconstitutional ,keep In mind the Supreme Court justices are open to corruption.

The Attorney Generals in most western countries are also corrupt and left over from imperial rule, the attorney generals do not answer to the people just the President or prime minister.
Many western attorney generals have also a common pattern career wise, they have worked for big banks like Goldman sacks, mainly after Ronald Reagan and Maragert Thathcher turned world economies into a rigged casino.
The politicians with no background in law will seek advice from the attorney general, the attorney general has them in the palm of their hands at this point, many acts are open to interpretation.
The irony is politicians are also known as law makers.

This is why the system is currently collapsing, helicopter money will tempt you to get rid of your cash,go central bank digital and it might stem the discontent for another few years but it's a cancer ,we know what happens here.

IMO break the legislation that you know is unconstitutional regularly ,don't get caught, respect the law.

World economy below .......

 

[Barry Obummer]

"Type A's with a lot of internal drive will find stress I think even when there doesn't necessarily have to be.

Same thing with sociopaths haha. I was just reading something about that last week. I forget where though.

 

[lindsay]

My husband and I have a hopeful five-year plan: pay off remaining student loan debt, save as much money as we can, and buy a farm somewhere in the mountains and live off of what we can produce there. We have both determined that we will be happier healthier people if we are surrounded by a few animals. Some goats, cows, and maybe a sheep or two and some chickens. I don't want kids (and likely cannot have them anyhow), so I want to have animals. And learn how to knit stuff and work on my photography and maybe learn to paint - or something.

And of course, in another year, our five year plan will probably change. Maybe we will end up in Estonia. Who knows.

 

[Simonsays]

Probably the single most important thing you can get your kids is their peer group in their teens. There's tons of research on this. You want teens around smart and cultured and competitive people. Your kids turned out fine, but they'd probably be doing much better had they gone to Phillips Academy (for argument's sake).

The problem is you get attracted to the teens most like you. I went to a very good school and i was bright , but i zeroed in on those who wanted to have a good time . Even when i went to University many years later, it happened again!!

All is explained in "They f**k you up, A survival guide to family life" - Oliver James. (ill keep banging on about this book, 'til the cows come home.)

Interestingly the most damaged adults, grew up in the most dysfunctional families, usually at the bottom ( no surprises there) and also at the very top of the economic scale (money/material possessions/best schools/best friends/best neighborhood) count for nothing, if there is no consistent love/support/interest.

Maragert Thathcher turned world economies into a rigged casino.

NB Interestingly Margaret Thatchers children , ohh dear,,, well less said,, no loving mother around during the critical early years?? I think she had definite borderline traits.

 

[jaguar43]

Interesting, I guess I can see that.

My situation was the EXACT opposite. I grew up in a very wealthy neighborhood, but as an adult I could not afford to live in my own home town, nor would I want to. The rampant materialism and display of wealth was/is still vile, in my opinion. I happily left for "greener (cheaper) pastures"....I would never want to raise my kids the way I was raised. My parents were gone, always...too busy. Working. Striving for the Almighty Dollar. Out to lunch. Pre-occupied. No time. Not interested.

I bought acreage originally and started a little farm, but divorce forced me to move to town. Certainly not ideal and definitely not my part of my plan, but you know somehow the kids turned out okay, despite the stress, poverty and poor diet.

Took a helluva a toll on me tho....but sitting here writing this, I am realizing that I don't have learned helplessness.

I understand what your saying. I have known people who are very materialistically driven and are extremely unpleasant to be around. That type of environment can be carcinogenic. Ray Peat in his book Generative Energy talked about the difference between status living and "full" living. And how we work and how we view the world can effect who we are.

 

[jaguar43]

NB Interestingly Margaret Thatchers children , ohh dear,,, well less said,, no loving mother around during the critical early years?? I think she had definite borderline traits.

LOL there was apparently "no alternative" from herself.

 

[thebigpeatowski]

Ray Peat in his book Generative Energy talked about the difference between status living and "full" living.

This is it precisely...FULL living.

I've always referred to it as The Game. It's a game I started when my kids were young, to see how inexpensively we could get by on while trying to minimize the garbage we leave behind and having the most FUN, in the form of experiences/memories/learning new stuff....it's a challenge for sure. But having experienced both sides myself, I can honestly say striving/status living is toxic to me.

Full Living is where it's at....my challenge for the past five years has been to raise the quality at every level (especially food) while still being dirt cheap. Learning new stuff is fun and never-ending.