Stretch Creates ATP

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Just like Ray Peat said, stretch causes time and strength-dependent rise of the ATP concentration in media.

http://www.jbc.org/content/273/11/6334.full.pdf

The organism is a multi-way system. A muscle cell can use ATP to cause a contraction, and it can use a stretch to create ATP. The stretching and pulling as well as the ATP are a structural part of the essence of the cell, they aren't just fuel and effect.

When the cell runs out of energy, it takes on a shrunken, contracted form, which on a large scale looks like a cramped muscle. The normal state of the cell is energized and ready to contract if needs be, but not contracted. It can do it if it needs to do it. Its normal state is instead much more relaxed.

If it is asked to contract more than its energetic potential permits, it not only cannot return to the relaxed state (it isn't that it needs the energy to return there, the issue is that energy is an integral part of that energized state and you can't be in that state without the energy that is part of it), but takes on a disorganized, spastic contracted state which will turn out to be anything from a cramped muscle to an epileptic seizure.

Stretching will provide a form of energy that will take on the shape of order in the cell, like the gluten in dough when you stretch it, and atoms in the steel when you fold it. The ATP molecule is just a tool to store even more of this energy. Physical changes in the shape of ATP can provide twice the energy than the more well known chemical breakdown of ATP.



When your muscle is cramping, it has been asked to do something that it has not enough energy to do.

When you stretch the muscle, you are basically having all the other muscles chip in a little bit of their ATP to pull the cramped muscle out of spasm. It is a system of redistribution of energy that works through outside channels, it has to go through your conscious decision to stretch and it has to go through the outside of your body, for example from your arm to your cramped leg when you go to push against it during the stretching exercise. It operates on a higher level than the normal internal ways in which a muscle re-energizes itself.

This external redistribution strategy can be seen in any kind of system, from government protection of a person's welfare, to medical antibiotic intervention on a person who has an infection, to the immune system taking over in a part of the skin where the mechanical barrier has become insufficient to keep out bacteria.

Wherever a "game" environment falls out of balance, it will become advantageous to rebalance it using the least amount of energy by getting ahead of the game, that is by playing a larger game with a wider set of rules of which the inferior game's rules are just a subset. This happens because of the second law of thermodynamics, and it is the reason why in all matter and energy there is a creative stimulus, especially so in the parts that we say are "living things".
 

Drareg

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Great post.
I find T3 helps me stretch better, I touch my toes as a test. Creatine sometimes.

The current, "game environment" worldwide is a sign that the rebalance may turn people into psychopaths,it seems some in the current capitalist system would eat their young for financial security and a way out.

You can see this behaviour currently, lowest amount of energy to rebalance, everybody is looking for a shortcut to financial security, critical bloggers,youtube channels,start up con men,Tony Robbins types, hedge funds,pro gamblers, credit derivative swaps,all require little production energy for a large payoff, the payoff is now smaller for the above so it will be interesting to see what overhyped money spinner with minimum energy requirements will come along next.

With a different system the rebalance may not be as aggressive.
 
OP
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I think that just implies they are working as a smaller unconnected system. It's about being sufficiently coupled with other systems to permit the fusion of advantages and disadvantages. A tumor loses coupling with the organism; survival becomes his own business and nobody else's.
 

whodathunkit

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The current, "game environment" worldwide is a sign that the rebalance may turn people into psychopaths,it seems some in the current capitalist system would eat their young for financial security and a way out.
Right! And contrast that with more "altruistic" systems like communism or socialism where psychopathy is rooted out at the base and no psychopath ever rose to a position of wealth, prominence, or power...oh, wait. :rolleyes:

Stretching is one of my favorites pastimes. Great, OP, @Such_Saturation, this makes a lot of sense.
 

Drareg

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Right! And contrast that with more "altruistic" systems like communism or socialism where psychopathy is rooted out at the base and no psychopath ever rose to a position of wealth, prominence, or power...oh, wait. :rolleyes:

Stretching is one of my favorites pastimes. Great, OP, @Such_Saturation, this makes a lot of sense.

Most paradigms have it,religion for example. The psychopath seems to be the issue.
 

Makrosky

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Just like Ray Peat said, stretch causes time and strength-dependent rise of the ATP concentration in media.

http://www.jbc.org/content/273/11/6334.full.pdf

The organism is a multi-way system. A muscle cell can use ATP to cause a contraction, and it can use a stretch to create ATP. The stretching and pulling as well as the ATP are a structural part of the essence of the cell, they aren't just fuel and effect.

When the cell runs out of energy, it takes on a shrunken, contracted form, which on a large scale looks like a cramped muscle. The normal state of the cell is energized and ready to contract if needs be, but not contracted. It can do it if it needs to do it. Its normal state is instead much more relaxed.

If it is asked to contract more than its energetic potential permits, it not only cannot return to the relaxed state (it isn't that it needs the energy to return there, the issue is that energy is an integral part of that energized state and you can't be in that state without the energy that is part of it), but takes on a disorganized, spastic contracted state which will turn out to be anything from a cramped muscle to an epileptic seizure.

Stretching will provide a form of energy that will take on the shape of order in the cell, like the gluten in dough when you stretch it, and atoms in the steel when you fold it. The ATP molecule is just a tool to store even more of this energy. Physical changes in the shape of ATP can provide twice the energy than the more well known chemical breakdown of ATP.



When your muscle is cramping, it has been asked to do something that it has not enough energy to do.

When you stretch the muscle, you are basically having all the other muscles chip in a little bit of their ATP to pull the cramped muscle out of spasm. It is a system of redistribution of energy that works through outside channels, it has to go through your conscious decision to stretch and it has to go through the outside of your body, for example from your arm to your cramped leg when you go to push against it during the stretching exercise. It operates on a higher level than the normal internal ways in which a muscle re-energizes itself.

This external redistribution strategy can be seen in any kind of system, from government protection of a person's welfare, to medical antibiotic intervention on a person who has an infection, to the immune system taking over in a part of the skin where the mechanical barrier has become insufficient to keep out bacteria.

Wherever a "game" environment falls out of balance, it will become advantageous to rebalance it using the least amount of energy by getting ahead of the game, that is by playing a larger game with a wider set of rules of which the inferior game's rules are just a subset. This happens because of the second law of thermodynamics, and it is the reason why in all matter and energy there is a creative stimulus, especially so in the parts that we say are "living things".
Great post Such!!!! Thanks!!!

In Chinese martial arts traditions it is said that when you stretch a muscle it liberates qi to the bloodstream. They use a metafor of a wet towel that you squeeze and it drops water.

Ray PeatTraditions are right again...
 

whodathunkit

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Most paradigms have it,religion for example. The psychopath seems to be the issue.
Yeah, that pretty much my point. Capitalism has done more than any other economic system, ever, to lift more people out of poverty. I find it odd that so many people bash it and don't take an equally generous look at the systemic atrocities perpetrated under whatever their pet economic system happens to be. The bad apples find a way to corrupt *everything*, without fail.
 
L

lollipop

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Great post Such!!!! Thanks!!!

In Chinese martial arts traditions it is said that when you stretch a muscle it liberates qi to the bloodstream. They use a metafor of a wet towel that you squeeze and it drops water.

Ray PeatTraditions are right again...
I agree with you @Makrosky awesome post @Such_Saturation ! In yoga as well, the "stretch" balances and builds Prana not only in the tissues, blood, air, but also opens and balances the nadis, i.e. subtle pathways.
 

Makrosky

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I agree with you @Makrosky awesome post @Such_Saturation ! In yoga as well, the "stretch" balances and builds Prana not only in the tissues, blood, air, but also opens and balances the nadis, i.e. subtle pathways.
Glad we have an expert yogi here lisa! One day you should talk to us about ojas building substances under peat prism. Could be very interesting.
 
OP
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This is very interesting about the Chinese arts aspect. Remember that Ray Peat mentioned it simply based on the fact that stretching a muscle generates ATP (of course I can't remember where he did). But anyone that stretches in a simple way, such as a morning Sun Salutation or similar technique, will know how good it feels. I am convinced that this is why it does feel good.
 
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lollipop

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This is very interesting about the Chinese arts aspect. Remember that Ray Peat mentioned it simply based on the fact that stretching a muscle generates ATP (of course I can't remember where he did). But anyone that stretches in a simple way, such as a morning Sun Salutation or similar technique, will know how good it feels. I am convinced that this is why it does feel good.
I agree it is an explanation for the yogic expression of *building Prana*. And I think there are more things at play: balancing metabolism, increased circulation, balancing hormonal responses (I know many women (myself included) who overcame PMS symptoms with yoga using specific sequences. I used to say yoga is a massage therapist, chiropractor, acupuncturist, general practitioner MD, psychotherapist, allergist, Homeopathist, all wrapped up in one discipline - lol.

@Makrosky ojas is a fascinating subject - might be fun one day.
 

Peata

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I agree it is an explanation for the yogic expression of *building Prana*. And I think there are more things at play: balancing metabolism, increased circulation, balancing hormonal responses (I know many women (myself included) who overcame PMS symptoms with yoga using specific sequences. I used to say yoga is a massage therapist, chiropractor, acupuncturist, general practitioner MD, psychotherapist, allergist, Homeopathist, all wrapped up in one discipline - lol.

@Makrosky ojas is a fascinating subject - might be fun one day.
Does stretching your limbs/body give you energy all over mind and body? Maybe I should stretch more when I'm fatigued (sometimes happens even after a long sleep). I tend to think what foods or supplements would help instead.
 
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lollipop

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Does stretching your limbs/body give you energy all over mind and body? Maybe I should stretch more when I'm fatigued (sometimes happens even after a long sleep). I tend to think what foods or supplements would help instead.
What I have noticed (and my husband as well since he started practicing with me after our marriage) it gives me a calm overall sustained energy rather than a rush, type of quick energy. I practice after my morning fruit smoothie and coffee and literally have sustained energy all day - never need to nap (also my Peat diet helps that as well).

I simply LOVE yoga!! I think it seriously is one of the best forms of movement available to us if learned properly. I balance it with walking, bouncing, short sprint running on rebounder.
 

Tarmander

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I have been both very limber and kind of bulky. I found there is this sweet spot with stretching. If you have muscle and "coiled" energy, stretching releases it and feels awesome. But if you are too muscular and not limber, your lower range of motion prevents this.

If you get too flexible, too limber, stretching feels good but it can kind of string you out. Almost like you don't have the energy available and you are squeezing every ounce out. The sweet spot is right in the middle of those extremes
 
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lollipop

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I have been both very limber and kind of bulky. I found there is this sweet spot with stretching. If you have muscle and "coiled" energy, stretching releases it and feels awesome. But if you are too muscular and not limber, your lower range of motion prevents this.

If you get too flexible, too limber, stretching feels good but it can kind of string you out. Almost like you don't have the energy available and you are squeezing every ounce out. The sweet spot is right in the middle of those extremes
This. You can use yoga to build muscle using isometric work if you know how to. Yoga is not just becoming flexible even though some people use it as such.
 
OP
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I think stretching releases serotonin when it's quick and excessive. Probably by damaging the tissue.
 

Makrosky

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I think stretching releases serotonin when it's quick and excessive. Probably by damaging the tissue.
What makes you think that? I've noticed that sometimes while stretching I would get an instant and quick rush of anger. Sounds strange, I know. I always wondered why was that. When I started to read Peat and the correlation between serotonin and agression I wondered if while doing the stretches I move the belly area a lot and Peat says it cn generate serotonin. It always intrigued me. I would have never thought the muscle itself could release serotonin. Why you say that?
 
OP
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It's mechanical damage... you don't need hormones to mediate it.
 
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