Stress

[jaa]

The message I get when I read Ray Peat is that we should avoid stress as much as possible. Now it's possible, even likely, that I am misinterpreting the message. But when I read threads like this one on intermittent fasting (viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2509), and others on exercise and cold showers, it seems like most of you agree with my interpretation. This, however, does not jive with experience. Taken to an extreme of say floating in an isolation tank with incandescent bulbs and all your nutritional requirements being pumped into you at a steady rate, or any other no stress environment you can think of, you would be completely unable to live in the real world if you spent any length of time in such an environment. Your muscles and bones would waste away. Your brain and other organs would shrink. And you likely would die from what we would consider mild climate fluctuations.

So clearly we need some stress in order to thrive. And too much will affect us negatively, especially if our health has deteriorated and our stress hormones are already high. So I guess my question is what are some guidelines we can use to determine the optimal amount of stress we can put on ourselves? Can IFing, or cold showers be beneficial if we engage in those activities intelligently?

 

[jyb]

There's no contradiction. If your muscles wasted away because you never walked, then you'd be stressed because not having a stimulating life. Note that you hardly need much exercise to maintain some muscles. There's difference between stimulation and stress. If you swim in sea water that is a bit cold for example, it's pretty fun and stimulating if you're healthy, but a tad too stressful if you are hypothyroid and cold even before entering the water.

If you fast a bit, you may easily recover if you're healthy and the fast isn't that long.

 

[pboy]

if its enjoyable and you are fit to overcome it, then the feeling of growth and reward are worth it to perform certain activities

I think the message is moreso don't feel trapped, helpless, hopeless, and disconnected...but rather always feel inspired, free, and capable. Stress is mental way, way more than it is physical. Like playing a game of basketball is harder on the body than being an office worker, but the person in the office is likely suffering more stress and bad side effects...and its the worst if you tell yourself, or feel like your situation is hopeless...the ability to perceive of or notion of working towards something better is a large factor in keeping good health

 

[Gabriel]

I'm glad you're bringing that up because this is exactly one issue where I think Peat is wrong. Even sick people with heart failure were found to benefit immensely from exercise. I'm not doubting that overexercise is bad for you and causes thyroid problems (just like every "over..." thing in the world). But for the majority of people its probably very healthy. I think many people get Peat wrong on that and stop exercising at all. I think that is wrong.

I'm also not sure whether there is a real difference between stimulation and stress. Exercise is stressful for the body, the thing just is that this is something good because it strengthens our endogenous defenses (concept of hormesis).

Hope to get some more input on that.

 

[HDD]

This is a link that has what Ray Peat has said about exercise and at the bottom a link to an interview with Rob Turner. It is very helpful in distinguishing what might be harmful and in what context.

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2012/0 ... -exercise/

 

[HDD]

"In the resting state, muscles consume mainly fats, so maintaining relatively large muscles is important for preventing the accumulation of fats."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ions.shtml

 

[mandance]

I feel like you should just live a life you enjoy beyond worrying about what is stressful and what isnt. I think worrying about what can be harmful is a stressor. If you want to take cold showers, take them. Do what you want, I think life is about quality, not quantity of years. But with that said, if you do already have health issues, then certainly activities you described could make you worse off. Its all within the individual context. But a big part of it is mental.

I knew a guy who was around 30, his mom just had died from cancer who was his only family, when he himself got diagnosed with cancer. He was very sick and doing chemo through a chest port. It didnt stop him from riding a bicycle 20 miles a day because that is what he loved to do. He beat the cancer and is alive and well. I think he would have been worse off had he did nothing and only rested. There are other factors regarding physical stress, such as positive and mental joy. If you love bike riding, but ray peat says its bad...what is more stressful, bike riding, or denying yourself something you love to do?

 

[HDD]

This is from another thread. I am quoting Rayser:
"Someone very close to me has been diagnosed with Hodgkin's lymphoma when she was 29. (She is fine by the way, 4 years later now and without chemo therapy apart from a first horrible try.)

The thing is: She was always extremely athletic. She used to swim once a week, she went to a fitness studio twice a week. Nearly every morning she went for a run. In her free time she went climbing and skiing and surfing and I don't know what. She was always well muscled and people (even those who didn't know her) told her she looked "healthy".
When the doctors told us she had cancer her first words were "But I do sports all the time." and the doctor (he was a specialist for blood cancers and lymphoma) said: "That's what all my patients say."
You couldn't tell after a few rounds of chemo. They all got cortisone so they had these typical watery, fat look - but when you talked to the other patients they would tell you about their marathons and how they loved to climb mountains and cycle from Rome to Madrid."

If your friend knew his cycling could contribute to his health negatively it might change his attitude about it. I agree that worrying about everything is stressful. However, if you are aware that something is harmful you might choose to live differently. Doing things to improve health is mentally helpful as well.

 

[kettlebell]

There is a big difference between stress and distress. There seems to be some confusion here between the two.

 

[HDD]

So would the love and enjoyment of a physical activity overcome any negative physical impact? Does it depend entirely on the individual's health status?

 

[mandance]

There is no way to determine that excercise caused people to get cancer...there is simply no way to make that claim at all. There are countless people that live active lifestyles like the ones you described who dont get cancer. Everyone has about a 40 percent chance to get cancer at some point in their lives, out of those people, they have a 1 in 4 chance of dying from it. Being physically fit as opposed to being obese is far better for your health. Id rather be climbing mountains and fit, than obese and sitting on a couch.

 

[4peatssake]

Ray Peat is specific about what he consider safe and unsafe exercise. He surely does not advocate being obese and sitting on a couch.

“Since the contextuality of communication is always in the foreground when I talk or write, you know that someone is confusing me with an authority when they talk about my ‘protocol’ for something. Context is everything, and it’s individual and empirical.”

 

[mandance]

Oh I know. Im just saying that the majority of people with health issues in the united states are the obese PUFA eating types, not the athletic ones.

 

[HDD]

There is no way to determine that excercise caused people to get cancer...there is simply no way to make that claim at all. There are countless people that live active lifestyles like the ones you described who dont get cancer. Everyone has about a 40 percent chance to get cancer at some point in their lives, out of those people, they have a 1 in 4 chance of dying from it. Being physically fit as opposed to being obese is far better for your health. Id rather be climbing mountains and fit, than obese and sitting on a couch.

I wasn't implying that exercise causes cancer. However, since you had given the example of your friend who relieved his stressful situation by biking, it reminded me of the thread I quoted where cancer and exercise were being discussed. It is near and dear to my heart since my daughter had cancer. She, at the time of the thread, was doing crossfit and following a paleo diet. The reality is that all exercise in all situations is not necessarily beneficial. It isn't a matter of what I, or you, or even Ray Peat believe about it. The truth is what matters. Just like accepting the fact that sugar isn't evil, we have to accept the fact that some exercise isn't optimal. It is what is happening physiologically that is important. The science behind why some exercise might contribute to cancer. I personally like aerobic type exercise because I have been conditioned to believe that it is beneficial. We all have preconceived ideas. But learning the truth is powerful. It gives me the power to make wise choices in how I live my life. One can be quite sedentary and healthy and one can be an athlete and be healthy but using wisdom in either case is what matters.

 

[mandance]

But the truth is whatever you choose to believe. If someone believes in God, but there is no proof of God existing..is that person wrong even though he feels it in his heart? Does someone who loves to bike, like it so much that it gives him something beyond science and health, to live again? There are things that occur on a deeper level than science can explain, there are things that occur that are amazing. Why is it that someone with a loving supporting family has a higher chance of beating an illness than someone who doesnt? There are certain factors in the world that go beyond what we can comprehend and those things at their core, have to do with belief and faith and love. On a phisiological level, maybe bicyling was bad for my friend with cancer....but on a deeper level, it set him free. I do believe if he did not do those things, he would have died. Of course no one can know the alternative outcome...but its not always all about science. Sometimes its about faith in what you love, and what you believe.

edit: Because i do believe you beat stress by doing that on many levels. Some people just have a higher will to live, or a greater sense of purpose that keeps them going...some are unlucky and get dealt crappy cards. I am sorry to hear that about your daughter at any rate. I did not know you have a child with cancer, I cant imagine how hard that has to be. I hope she is well, and you also.

 

[HDD]

But the truth is whatever you choose to believe. If someone believes in God, but there is no proof of God existing..is that person wrong even though he feels it in his heart? Does someone who loves to bike, like it so much that it gives him something beyond science and health, to live again? There are things that occur on a deeper level than science can explain, there are things that occur that are amazing. Why is it that someone with a loving supporting family has a higher chance of beating an illness than someone who doesnt? There are certain factors in the world that go beyond what we can comprehend and those things at their core, have to do with belief and faith and love. On a phisiological level, maybe bicyling was bad for my friend with cancer....but on a deeper level, it set him free. I do believe if he did not do those things, he would have died. Of course no one can know the alternative outcome...but its not always all about science. Sometimes its about faith in what you love, and what you believe.

edit: Because i do believe you beat stress by doing that on many levels. Some people just have a higher will to live, or a greater sense of purpose that keeps them going...some are unlucky and get dealt crappy cards. I am sorry to hear that about your daughter at any rate. I did not know you have a child with cancer, I cant imagine how hard that has to be. I hope she is well, and you also.

I agree with you that there is more than just the physiological, measurable, things that occur in the human body. We are much more complex. Many spouses that have been married for a very long time die shortly after losing their loved one. I have read/heard about someone curing cancer by watching funny movies every day. And as we discussed, previously, having that lever for inescapable stress can make all the difference in the world. My daughter has a very strong faith in God. I believe that this is what carried her through her dark times. She is well now, thanks, and I am too.

 

[mandance]

Glad to hear all is well again. Faith is important to anyone. Having faith in something, anything is very important imo because therein lies the hope and where oyu can go for strength but of course...like you said, doing what we know is true as Peat has discovered, is a big tool in the toolbox. And all of us really...in a sense, we are the test cases for his research and his research is def paying off for many, myself included.

 

[HDD]

Glad to hear you are seeing progress, mandance!

 

[mandance]

Yeah its been a wild ride. I was pretty healthy before Peating, but had some mild digestion issues which Peating solved with carrot salads. Now just trying to deal with mental stress, anxiety, drug withdrawal etc. You know, anyone who believes in the power of ice cream, immedietly gets my attention. I think when someone told me about Ray Peat and said he thinks ice cream could be beneficial...I remember saying something along the lines of....go on, im listening. lol

 

[HDD]

I think you and those that haven't started their families, yet, or have young children are very fortunate to have found Ray Peat. As you learn from him about nutrition and health, you can prevent passing on hormonal issues. If I look at my mom's health, then mine, and now my children, I can see the connection. Hopefully, my children will listen and it will not go any further in my family. They all thought I was crazy when I started eating ice cream and drinking mexican coke. It isn't easy convincing them or anyone that what I am doing is healthy.