Strange Lifelong (since Toddler Age) Extreme Cravings For Vinegar - A Clue?

[artist]

Hello - I've been reading up on Ray Peat and lurking this forum for about a year now so now that I'm posting I have many many things I want to discuss but I thought I would start with this. I'm wondering if anyone else here experiences strong vinegar cravings or knows what this could indicate. My whole life I've experienced this to the point that at my worst I would just slightly water down some straight red wine vinegar or ACV, add some salt and maybe oil and sip it by the cupful (and yes I've always been aware how disgusting this is). Adults found it very funny how much a kindergartner could love salad and pickles. Eventually I realized that the part I liked was the salt+vinegar taste and cut out the unnecessary components. Salt (sometimes in the form of cheese) is always required to round out this craving...

Because I have always had them and they are one of the most bizarre and distinctive symptoms I have had I'm wondering if it couldn't be a clue to other health issues that have become more pronounced and identifiable as an adult. The most striking pattern I've found with these cravings is that they become extreme/insatiable after eating a lot of starch, especially wheat. Now I do know (after having the validation from Peat that this is even possible) that starch makes me depressed and breaks me out, so clearly I'm having a hard time digesting things, but why does this make me crave vinegar, and why would I be born with this problem? I've often assumed that stress from family life or eating disorders led to me becoming so sick after puberty, but this makes me think it goes back further. My mother has hypothyroid & alcoholism and my father has MS if that means anything.

I'm a 26 year old female with a long history of depression, anxiety, eating disorders, edema/heavy periods/breast pain/general estrogen problems, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin... and most problematically in the last few years, major "histamine intolerance" and MCS problems. The histamine intolerance means that vinegar causes a major reaction for me because it is very high in histamine.

If anyone can relate their own situations or any info you know that could put some of these pieces together I'd love to know! Thank you

 

[Nina]

Hi Artist!


Vinegar cravings would mean you are low in stomach acid. Someone else could explain it in more scientific terms. If vinegar is a problem, maybe lemon would help while you sort this out? I have been craving lemons, and homemade lemonade is my new favorite.

I have issues very similar as yours and I totally relate. Adopting a Peat nutrition is turning my life around.
In my case, staying away from gluten makes a major difference, it would certainly help with your digestive issues. The daily carrot salad is easy to adopt. Oranges and OJ are likely to help you with anxiety.

I frequently read this page: Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, and General Guidelines

This graphic is very useful:

 

[kiran]

It might also be some sort of bacterial overgrowth, vinegar has some antiseptic properties. THe cravings after eating starch are a clue.

 

[sm1693]

post 99113 It might also be some sort of bacterial overgrowth, vinegar has some antiseptic properties. THe cravings after eating starch are a clue.

I second this. I have experienced the vinegar craving before and in retrospect it appeared to be the body's last ditch attempt to quiet down a surge in bacterial growth.

 

[jyb]

I feel like although vinegar could indeed be antiseptic, the fact that one likes it after starch could be unrelated. Here in the UK, vinegar on potato chips is common but the explanation is quite simple: it tastes good together. Likewise, it's easy to imagine other reasons to crave acidic foods like lemons including taste or the fact that it is high in vitamin C.

A forum member, Gbolduev, wrote that vinegar could help in hormone synthesis deficiencies. I would have no idea whether that is correct.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

yeah I think there is a lot of guess work involved here. Could be a simple as learned preferences like jyb mentions in regards to taste. Ill throw blood sugar regulation in the mix based on the starch connection.

 

[tara]

artist

This is definitely not me. I seldom want vinegar, and food has to be very bland indeed before I want any pickles or relish with them. :)

I wonder if your system in general is running a bit on the alkaline side? Did your disordered eating patch involve eating large amounts of alkalinising foods and little other than vinegar to balance it? Having your systemic pH in range may make it easier to absorb and use many nutrients. Maybe you have craved vinegar to help maintain this balance?
You can check your urine pH a few times (not first thing in the morning) with pH strips. Ideally it should be averaging between 6.3 - 6.7. I get this idea from RBTI, but Peat too thinks this is a good range.

Does orange juice and other acidy fruit help satisfy the craving?

 

[Such_Saturation]

I also used to drink all the salad's vinegar with a straw.

 

[artist]

Hi Artist!


Vinegar cravings would mean you are low in stomach acid. Someone else could explain it in more scientific terms. If vinegar is a problem, maybe lemon would help while you sort this out? I have been craving lemons, and homemade lemonade is my new favorite.

I have issues very similar as yours and I totally relate. Adopting a Peat nutrition is turning my life around.
In my case, staying away from gluten makes a major difference, it would certainly help with your digestive issues. The daily carrot salad is easy to adopt. Oranges and OJ are likely to help you with anxiety.

I frequently read this page: Ray Peat Diet, Food Choices, and General Guidelines

This graphic is very useful:

Thank you! I think this is a good bet. As a teen instead of vinegar I would often suck salted lemon or lime slices, 1 or 2 entire fruits, almost every day for a while. Unfortunately this trashed my enamel and my dentist thought I was bulimic, but I wasn't (yet).

In the past year I've had a lot of improvements from taking Peat's advice and I've stuck to an almost 100% Peaty diet and you're right that I don't get vinegar cravings as long as I stick to it, but an overall stressful life situation confused the diet issue somewhat. In the past couple months I've added orange juice and I LOVE it and crave it like crazy (just like I do milk) but it also has been giving me tooth problems so I had to lay off for a bit. I didn't know oranges could improve anxiety like that but in hindsight I think that's been true.

It might also be some sort of bacterial overgrowth, vinegar has some antiseptic properties. THe cravings after eating starch are a clue.

post 99113 It might also be some sort of bacterial overgrowth, vinegar has some antiseptic properties. THe cravings after eating starch are a clue.

I second this. I have experienced the vinegar craving before and in retrospect it appeared to be the body's last ditch attempt to quiet down a surge in bacterial growth.

That makes sense to me too. Can I ask how you dealt with the bacteria thing? Just improving metabolism and avoiding starch?

I feel like although vinegar could indeed be antiseptic, the fact that one likes it after starch could be unrelated. Here in the UK, vinegar on potato chips is common but the explanation is quite simple: it tastes good together. Likewise, it's easy to imagine other reasons to crave acidic foods like lemons including taste or the fact that it is high in vitamin C.

yeah I think there is a lot of guess work involved here. Could be a simple as learned preferences like jyb mentions in regards to taste. Ill throw blood sugar regulation in the mix based on the starch connection.

A forum member, Gbolduev, wrote that vinegar could help in hormone synthesis deficiencies. I would have no idea whether that is correct.

I could see this (I do love some salt and vinegar chips) but I'm not even describing like eating a starch meal and immediately wanting pickles. I'm talking about a few days experimenting with a starchy diet and then even after I stop, for several days after, having pronounced cravings that have at times induced me to drink a bottle of red wine vinegar. Vinegar helping hormone synthesis and blood sugar are both very interesting thoughts, I'll try to find more on that.

artist

This is definitely not me. I seldom want vinegar, and food has to be very bland indeed before I want any pickles or relish with them. :)

I wonder if your system in general is running a bit on the alkaline side? Did your disordered eating patch involve eating large amounts of alkalinising foods and little other than vinegar to balance it? Having your systemic pH in range may make it easier to absorb and use many nutrients. Maybe you have craved vinegar to help maintain this balance?
You can check your urine pH a few times (not first thing in the morning) with pH strips. Ideally it should be averaging between 6.3 - 6.7. I get this idea from RBTI, but Peat too thinks this is a good range.

Does orange juice and other acidy fruit help satisfy the craving?

Thanks! Is it meat that's considered alkalizing? The thing is I've done several extremes. From 18-21 I was an obsessive calorie restricting vegan (started for ethical reasons and it went south). I ate whole wheat bread, vegetables, tofu and diet soda. Then when I tried to give that up I went towards low carb after a time of binge eating and bulimia that made me gain 50 pounds. I cycled from different extreme diets after that, usually sticking to low carb because I thought "carbs" (actually starches) made me retain water and feel sick. I've even done "protein sparing modified fasts". But the vinegar cravings have persisted through a typical American way of eating from very early childhood to eating disorders to now (if I fall off the Peat wagon and eat rice pasta lol). I also crave orange juice so you're probably onto something, I just don't feel guilty when I consume large amounts of that hahah. I'll find some pH strips and see what it says.

I also used to drink all the salad's vinegar with a straw.

Good call on the straw

 

[narouz]

A forum member, Gbolduev, wrote that vinegar could help in hormone synthesis deficiencies. I would have no idea whether that is correct.

In that gbolduevian contest
(who knew there could be such a thing!?)
he said that brewers' yeast + vinegar often helped people.

(I'd have to find the thread to remember/figure out what he was talking about.)

 

[Such_Saturation]

I only ever wanted the balsamic vinegar, not regular one.

 

[montmorency]

post 99098 Hello - I've been reading up on Ray Peat and lurking this forum for about a year now so now that I'm posting I have many many things I want to discuss but I thought I would start with this. I'm wondering if anyone else here experiences strong vinegar cravings or knows what this could indicate. My whole life I've experienced this to the point that at my worst I would just slightly water down some straight red wine vinegar or ACV, add some salt and maybe oil and sip it by the cupful (and yes I've always been aware how disgusting this is). Adults found it very funny how much a kindergartner could love salad and pickles. Eventually I realized that the part I liked was the salt+vinegar taste and cut out the unnecessary components. Salt (sometimes in the form of cheese) is always required to round out this craving...

Because I have always had them and they are one of the most bizarre and distinctive symptoms I have had I'm wondering if it couldn't be a clue to other health issues that have become more pronounced and identifiable as an adult. The most striking pattern I've found with these cravings is that they become extreme/insatiable after eating a lot of starch, especially wheat. Now I do know (after having the validation from Peat that this is even possible) that starch makes me depressed and breaks me out, so clearly I'm having a hard time digesting things, but why does this make me crave vinegar, and why would I be born with this problem? I've often assumed that stress from family life or eating disorders led to me becoming so sick after puberty, but this makes me think it goes back further. My mother has hypothyroid & alcoholism and my father has MS if that means anything.

I'm a 26 year old female with a long history of depression, anxiety, eating disorders, edema/heavy periods/breast pain/general estrogen problems, sensitive/reactive/acne prone skin... and most problematically in the last few years, major "histamine intolerance" and MCS problems. The histamine intolerance means that vinegar causes a major reaction for me because it is very high in histamine.

If anyone can relate their own situations or any info you know that could put some of these pieces together I'd love to know! Thank you

Wonder if it could be a potassium shortage?

You might try some pure potassium chloride mixed in with your salt, and see if anything changes. (Not lo-salt, etc, because of possible additives).

 

[narouz]

from Wikipedia:

Antimicrobial and medicinal
Vinegar was thought to be useful for treating infections in ancient times. Hippocrates (460–377 BC) prescribed it for curing pleurisy, fever, ulcers, and constipation; it was used by the ancient Egyptians to kill bacteria. When combined with honey to create oxymel, it was a common cough medicine in the ancient world. Vinegar also had multiple uses in ancient Babylon, where it was made from wine beginning around 5000 BC. The Babylonians used vinegar to preserve food and as a component of medicines.[37]

Researchers at the Food Biotechnology Department, Instituto de la Grasa (CSIC) in Seville, Spain conducted research on the antimicrobial activity of several food products, including vinegar. The following microorganisms were used in the study: S. aureus, L. monocytogenes, S. Enteritidis, E.coli 0157:H7, S. sonnei, and Yersinia sp. Vinegar (5% acetic acid) showed bactericidal activity against all strains tested,[38] which was attributed to its acidity.

The phenolic composition analysis of vinegar shows the presence of gallic acid, 4-hydroxybenzaldehyde, catechin, vanillic acid, caffeic acid, syringic acid, vanillin, syringaldehyde, p-coumaric acid, m-coumaric acid, anisaldehyde, epicatechin, sinapic acid, salicylaldehyde, scopoletin, veratraldehyde and o-coumaric acid.[39][40]

The active ingredient in vinegar, acetic acid, can effectively kill mycobacteria, even highly drug-resistant strains. Acetic acid could therefore be used as an inexpensive and non-toxic disinfectant against drug-resistant tuberculosis (TB) bacteria as well as other stubborn, disinfectant-resistant mycobacteria.[41][42]

See cleaning for further references regarding antimicrobial use.

Other medicinal
Applying vinegar to common jellyfish stings deactivates the nematocysts; however, placing the affected areas in hot water is a more effective treatment because the venom is deactivated by heat. The latter requires immersion in 45 °C (113 °F) water for at least four minutes for the pain to be reduced to less than what would be accomplished using vinegar.[43] This does not apply to the Portuguese man o' war, which, although generally considered to be a jellyfish, is not; vinegar applied to Portuguese man o' war stings can cause their nematocysts to discharge venom, making the pain worse.[44]

Vinegar has been shown ineffective for use against lice.[45] Combined with 60% Salicylic acid it is significantly more effective than placebo for the treatment of warts.[46]

Sources disagree as to whether, vinegar cannot be used as a detoxification agent to circumvent urinalysis testing for cannabis.[47][48]

 

[artist]

That's fascinating, it makes me wonder if it wouldn't be a bad idea to use vinegar therapeutically? I know Peat advocates including vinegar with the carrot salad, could larger quantities of vinegar provide even more powerful benefits? Hmm

@montmorency I'll try that

 

[narouz]

Here's another possible interpretation you might consider.
It runs sorta opposite to the anti-bacterial proposals in the thread...

Vinegar is a fermented product, right?
I recently had intense cravings for fermented foods,
particularly fermented vegetables.
Vinegar and pickled veggies share that very sour taste.

It could be that,
rather than craving an antibacterial agent,
you crave a pro-bacterial food.
Maybe your gut is out of balance,
under-populated with certain helpful bacteria.
Maybe you have an over-population of yeast,
and need more helpful bacteria to counter those yeast/fungi.

(This is not a Peat sanctioned viewpoint, I reckon.
So please avert your eyes if such ideas offend thee.
As I write,
I have a bag over my head--
a mark of my contrition in posting this unPeat idea.)

At the same time I was craving pickled foods,
I was also craving some starchy foods
which some bacteria apparently love.
After about a month and a half of eating massive amounts of Globe artichokes and pickled veggies,
my tongue finally--after like 3 years of white coating--
came back to its clean pink state.
And now I've lost the intense cravings for fermented vegetables.

I was changing other nutritional factors during this same period,
so I can't honestly claim with any certainty a cause & effect relationship with all the above.
Just wanted to throw this non-Peat-approved notion in here for your consideration....

 

[Parsifal]

Isn't there a lot of histamines in vinegar?

 

[A. squamosa]

i don't experience any cravings really (except sometimes for starch, and then I have fruit instead of starch and the starch craving goes away) - but I do find that I absolutely love the taste of extremely salted white vinegar, I find it more satisfying than anything else (which I discovered only recently), however it does make me belch after consuming it (and I am not typically a belcher), I wonder what that's about?