Strange Hair Loss Pattern And Generally Not Great Peating

Slippy

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Jan 14, 2014
Messages
8
Hello, 6 month Peat newbie here.

I'm a 22 year old male and have been experiencing hair loss for about 5 years now. I got into Peat via Danny Roddy with the goal of stopping hair loss once and for all. It originally started with just plain old MPB, which has progressed slowly but sped up in the last 2 years. Since 17, my entire hairline has "matured" (ie. is about 1.5cm higher), and i'd guess i'm about a Norwood 2 on my right temple and approaching a NW3 on my left temple. My crown has thinned a small bit, but no bald spot yet. Overall, my hair loss is not really noticeable to the untrained eye due to my hair style, just about okay density and hair shaft thickness. So, it's not really the MPB which is bothering me much (although I would like to lock it down and possibly regrow some).

What IS bothering me is the sheer amount of hair i'm losing all the time at the nape of my neck, and the back and sides of my head. If I run my hand through the side hair or slight mullet that I have right now, I always get about 3-4 falling out without fail. I have two balding spots that stretch from just above my ears to immediately behind them. The side hair, which is usually preserved in MPB, are thinner than on top. Washing my hair in the basin is depressing since counts of 150-200 per day are normal for me and it looks atrociously thin when wet. A lot of the hairs being lost look quite thick though, and not miniaturized like MPB hair usually is. It's as if my normal, non-MPB hair is just giving up all over. All of my hair feels quite weak and limp too, unless styled with a little mousse. This accelerated MPB loss and diffuse thinning has been going on for 2 years now. Part of me suspects retrograde alopecia or Diffuse Unpatterned Alopecia (DUPA), which would suck as that means i'm illegible for an MPB transplant.

At the moment I try to eat as Peat-like as possible. I get approx 1 liter OJ, 1 liter milk, 2 eggs every day, carrot salad, few grams of dark chocolate, ham, coke, ice cream most days, cheese, some approved fruit, potato, meat, couple of tablespoons gelatin or gummy bears, liver every two weeks and mussels once a week. In terms of supps, every day I take 5000 IU vitamin D, 250mg niacinimide in one dose, 5mg biotin (which have given my amazing eyelashes ironically), bit of vitamin E on the face, Life Extension Vit K2, 100mg hyaluronic acid, 200mg chelated magnesium, and the odd zinc and selenium once a week. I have taken 50mg pregnenelone twice so far, usually once per week. Everything I take is as "clean" as possible (bar some gums in the ice cream, sometimes pulp in the OJ, and usually soy lecithin in the chocolate). CRON-O-Meter says I get all the nutrients I need, about 2500 kcals (when sedentary) and PUFA usually hovers under 10 grams. I've taken finasteride for about 5 months, and have noticed absolutely nothing - no slowing of hair loss and no side effects whatsoever. Same with Regaine - zilch. I've even gotten thicker beard hair bizarrely. It's as if i'm taking sugar pills.

So is anyone else in a similar situation of this weird hair loss pattern around the nape and ears? Is there anything that it might indicate eg. higher of a certain stress hormone than another, or a deficiency of some sort? And what steps should I take next (eg, supps, macro ratios, calories, foods etc)? My mouth temps taken with an oral digital thermometer indicate that i'm hypothyroid. It seems random whether they rise or drop into the 35C degree territory upon eating or waking. Sometimes I feel really really lethargic, and often depressed, others i'm practically hyper and anxious. My resting pulse is around 60-70 most of the time, sometimes 80. It goes berserk when walking anywhere. I was diagnosed with POTS syndrome in 2012 so i'm hesitant to want to push it to what Peatarians aim for, as high pulses make me feel like crap with palpitations and a strong neck beating. I weigh 130lbs at 5ft 10 for what it's worth, with a slight skinny fat body type and low muscle tone. I have a background in anxiety and anorexia. I was also diagnosed with benign fasciculation disorder by a neurologist because of awful muscle twitching and symptoms of what felt like early onset MS (my uncle has it)

What am I doing wrong!? :?
 

answersfound

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Jan 12, 2014
Messages
991
Age
28
Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

Sorry, I don't have the patience to read through your entire post, but from my experience the body is simply stuck. The body reverts to what it knows, and that is probably a stressed state. Whether it be high cortisol, serotonin or other factors, you need to interrupt the cycle. I'm 23 years old, and I know it feels when everyone around you seems to be fine and moving along with their life while I'm quietly suffering. First, I'd try to get your hands on something like Tianeptine or Cyproheptadine. Tianeptine can be found on eBay and it has been extremely helpful in helping me avoid the "fight or flight" state where I get cold extremities and start to sweat. Also, experiment with Benadryl if you cannot get your hands on these. Tackling this with diet sounds nice in theory, but I'll be honest, there's no way I would have seen any improvement with out drugs. Also, don't overdo the supplements and don't obsess over what you eat. You need to chill with the liquids, if there's any advice you take from me, it's don't overdo the liquids. Focus on dense foods, that are high in calories and low in water. (Matt Stone's philosophy) Your body is not a science project. There is not a specific formula of foods, supplements, etc. that will make it run the way you want. You need to focus on intuitive eating and do your best to incorporate RP's principles. (Avoiding PUFA's in cooking oils and non-ruminant meats, avoid carageenan and other ******* gums, etc.) Let your mood dictate how much progress you made. If you take care of the underlying issues, then the hair growth will hopefully follow.
 

charlie

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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

Slippy, :welcome

You said your PUFA is around 10 grams a day. Ray Peat said less then 4 grams of PUFA a day protects against cancer. Oh and on the magnesium chelate, Ray does not like chelates very much.

Are you taking your temp with a glass thermometer?
 

Slippy

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Jan 14, 2014
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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

Sorry about the essay of a post - I just thought i'd try to pile on as much info as possible to find out where i'm going wrong.

I was not aware that Ray Peat disliked chelates. I am taking 100mg magnesium glycinate/lysinate, which I had saw him mention in the aging eyes article. I take it because I suspect that my thyroid is not functioning quite as well as it should and Danny Roddy recommended magnesium for the thyroid. Will try epsom salt baths instead, I have some lying around.

I take my temps using a digital thermometer in the mouth (I think in the mouth is way more consistent compared to say armpit). My "morning" temps are anywhere from 35.8C - 36.2C on most days, rising to about 36.5C about 6 hours after i'm up. They can climb to 36.8C in the later evening if i've eaten well. I should clarify that "morning" for me is about 2pm in the afternoon, and bed is often 4am. Sleep cycle is something i'm definitely trying to sort out first and foremost. I read on Paul Jaminet's website that hypothyroidism could perhaps be caused by a circadian rhythm disorder, which has spurred me on to make changes.

As for PUFA, it's often under 10g - it only gets as high as 10g on a day that i'm eating mussels, which can be twice a week. They seem to be high in PUFA according to Cron-o-meter and some nutritional info on Google. Perhaps these numbers are incorrect. On a non-mussel day, it's typically more like 6-7g of PUFA per day. Not ideal, but I struggle to go lower without going extremely orthorexic and plain not eating anything at all out of fear of PUFA. I should mention that I live with my parents so can't be ultra strict about all this.
 
T

tobieagle

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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

Your Temperatures are very low. They should be arround 36,6-36,8.
 

paper_clips43

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Sedona Arizona
Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

Charlie said:
Slippy, :welcome

You said your PUFA is around 10 grams a day. Ray Peat said less then 4 grams of PUFA a day protects against cancer. Oh and on the magnesium chelate, Ray does not like chelates very much.

Are you taking your temp with a glass thermometer?


4 Grams a day? How is that possible?

I just plugged in my average diet which is

4 Cups Raw Orange Juice
2 Quarts Grass Fed Milk
1 Medium Organic Raw Carrot
4 Tablespoons Raw Coconut Oil
2 Medium Peaches
2 Ounces Parmesan Cheese
2 Tablespoons Raw Grassfed Butter
8 Tablespoons Sugar Raw Turbinado
4-6 Shots of Espresso
and of course lots of salt.

All of this totals to 5.5 Grams of PUFA if Cronometer is correct.
This is with out adding Scallops, Oysters, Liver, or Clams.

How is it possible to keep it under 4 grams PUFA
 

max219

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Jun 2, 2013
Messages
82
Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

That's weird, I wonder where the PUFA is coming from. Milk, coconut oil, cheese, butter are all saturated. I usually keep under or around 5 grams a day, although my total fat is around 30-40 grams at most. Maybe it's the total amount of fat making the PUFA add up?
 

paper_clips43

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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

Cronometer claims that 2 quarts of milk is 2.5 grams of PUFA and 42 of Saturated.
It also says 4 Tablespoons of Coconut oil is 1 gram PUFA and 2 Tablespoons of butter is 1 gram PUFA.
 

paper_clips43

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Messages
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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

I found the answer to my question. CLA is classified as a PUFA. So thats where all the PUFA is coming from in the Dairy products.

Also I am pretty sure the CLA content of grassfed milk is higher than grainfed milk which would inevitably make it more PUFA.

I am assuming that according to Ray Peat we do need to classify CLA as a undesirable PUFA, correct?

Although I am still wondering where the 1 gram of PUFA is coming from in the 4 tablespoons of Coconut oil.
 

Peata

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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

When I put 4 T. coconut oil in Cronometer, it says 1 g. PUFA. Coconut oil has a lot of saturated fat, but still has a small amount of unsaturated and monounsaturated.
 

Mittir

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Feb 20, 2013
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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

paper_clips43 said:
I found the answer to my question. CLA is classified as a PUFA. So thats where all the PUFA is coming from in the Dairy products.

Also I am pretty sure the CLA content of grassfed milk is higher than grainfed milk which would inevitably make it more PUFA.

I am assuming that according to Ray Peat we do need to classify CLA as a undesirable PUFA, correct?

Although I am still wondering where the 1 gram of PUFA is coming from in the 4 tablespoons of Coconut oil.

RP recommends low fat milk to restrict calorie/fat intake and probably to limit
PUFA intake. This following study measured both PUFA and CLA separately
on different kind of hay feed. PUFA content of cow fat varied from 3.2 percent
to 3.4 percent and CLA varied from .80 to .90 percent. If we exclude CLA
then PUFA is still around 2.4 percent. We will need to consume about 1 quart
of milk to get 2.4 grams of PUFA excluding CLA.
http://www.egf2011.at/files/pubs/172_revello.pdf

The effects of different conserved forages on fatty acid profile and
terpene composition of cow milk in Alpine dairy production
Revello-Chion A.1
, Battelli G.², Giaccone D.³, Peiretti P.G.², Tabacco E.1
and Borreani G.1
1
Dep. Agronomia, Selvicoltura e Gestione del Territorio, University of Turin, Italy
² ISPA, CNR, Italy
³ ARAP, Piemonte, Italy
Corresponding author: andrea.revellochion@unito.it
Abstract
Farming systems in mountainous areas are generally based on local forage
resources and the milk produced is transformed to high quality cheeses.
Most of the milk is produced when animal diets are based on conserved
forages, locally produced or purchased from lowlands.
The aim of this study was to compare the effects of different
winter cow diets based on local and non-local forage resources on
the fatty acid (FA) profile and terpene composition of milk
in a mountainous area. Forty-five Aosta Red Pied cows were
fairly allocated into three groups and fed different diets based
on local hay (H), local haylage (S), and hay purchased from
the lowlands (LoH), respectively. Diets were supplemented
with concentrate to balance the requirements of energy,
protein and minerals. The high proportion of forage in diets
allowed the obtaining of milk with relatively good contents
of conjugated linoleic acids (CLA) and unsaturated FA.
Furthermore, the S-based diet did not lead to any change of the
milk FA profile compared to H, thus allowing a better
self-sufficiency of mountainous dairy farms
 

Slippy

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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

I'm gonna start keeping a log of temperatures. I have been drinking more coffee today and think that it could be ideal for my thyroid issues. When I was working, I used to drink 2-3 cups per day but always felt that it made me much worse, probably due to the stress of my job combined with the buzz of the caffeine. I'm at home now, much more relaxed, and find that it now makes me feel good instead of making me feel like i'm going to die. Heart rate is optimal, not too fast, and temperatures go up consistently. Each time I had coffee today, they jumped to as as high as 37.2C! I've read that Peat drinks at least 5 cups today, so perhaps I should build up to that.
 

mamaherrera

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Messages
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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

On your hair, I don''t think having thinner hairs around your ears is necessarily a bad/unnormal thing. It is normal for edges to have thinner hairs mixed in. I have those around my ears, temples, they don't grow as much, but it's like the intermediate hairs between vellus hairs and normal thick scalp hair. ;What I don' t like is that I have thinner hairs growing on top and all around. But I'm hoping that will improve by stressing less. Unfortunately my hair problem is what makes me stress the most. It's hard to ignore it though for me.
 
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Messages
7,367
Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

lookingforanswers said:
Sorry, I don't have the patience to read through your entire post, but from my experience the body is simply stuck. The body reverts to what it knows, and that is probably a stressed state. Whether it be high cortisol, serotonin or other factors, you need to interrupt the cycle. I'm 23 years old, and I know it feels when everyone around you seems to be fine and moving along with their life while I'm quietly suffering. First, I'd try to get your hands on something like Tianeptine or Cyproheptadine. Tianeptine can be found on eBay and it has been extremely helpful in helping me avoid the "fight or flight" state where I get cold extremities and start to sweat. Also, experiment with Benadryl if you cannot get your hands on these. Tackling this with diet sounds nice in theory, but I'll be honest, there's no way I would have seen any improvement with out drugs. Also, don't overdo the supplements and don't obsess over what you eat. You need to chill with the liquids, if there's any advice you take from me, it's don't overdo the liquids. Focus on dense foods, that are high in calories and low in water. (Matt Stone's philosophy) Your body is not a science project. There is not a specific formula of foods, supplements, etc. that will make it run the way you want. You need to focus on intuitive eating and do your best to incorporate RP's principles. (Avoiding PUFA's in cooking oils and non-ruminant meats, avoid carageenan and other ******* gums, etc.) Let your mood dictate how much progress you made. If you take care of the underlying issues, then the hair growth will hopefully follow.

YES

Us young ones should start testing prolactin and comparing it. I also suspect megadosing b1 b3 and b6 might revert hair loss, don't have any of that though. I'm also at that point where you can't tell if new hairs are venturing out or if they're the only ones left HAH HAH. I won't complain, if I had kept shedding like I did at sixteen I'd be more than bald.

Remember, don't stop adding sugar until coffee feels relaxing to you.
 

aquaman

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Messages
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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

You've also got to remember that hairs falling out does NOT equal hair loss.

Read up about the cycles of hair growth. Hairs have to fall out before regrowing. Ironically it may be a good sign that more hairs are falling out.
 

Slippy

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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

mamaherrera said:
On your hair, I don''t think having thinner hairs around your ears is necessarily a bad/unnormal thing. It is normal for edges to have thinner hairs mixed in. I have those around my ears, temples, they don't grow as much, but it's like the intermediate hairs between vellus hairs and normal thick scalp hair. ;What I don' t like is that I have thinner hairs growing on top and all around. But I'm hoping that will improve by stressing less. Unfortunately my hair problem is what makes me stress the most. It's hard to ignore it though for me.

These are some pictures I posted on the Immortal Hair forum a while ago:

http://i56.servimg.com/u/f56/18/74/19/25/20140211.jpg

http://i56.servimg.com/u/f56/18/74/19/25/20140210.jpg

I don't think that's normal. Some people on the forum even thought I had traction alopecia (I combed it back for the purposes of taking pictures, but other than that I barely touch my hair). And in addition to thinning, i've got some norwood 3 recession on my left side plus a norwood 2 on the other side.

I do have areas of hair that are still very thick though - I got my hair cut recently and the stylist remarked that she was having trouble combing it!
 

natedawggh

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Messages
649
Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

Slippy...

I know this is an old post... How's your hair journey going?

I can't believe no one told you to STOP FINASTERIDE. It's very bad for you and can have some serious long term health consequences.

You mention too that you have a history of anorexia, and yes your hair loss is directly caused by that, and by the looks of it you probably out your body through the ringer. You are doing great on your diet, but you should drop the supplements, take niacinamide and increase your carbs/calorie intake (esp. Sugar and potatoes if they don't give you problems). The coffee shakes you're getting is when you take caffeine with low blood sugar...that causes a spike in cortisol and makes you feel crappy. Never drink caffeine without having carbs. It will take some time for your metabolism/mitochondria to repair enough. Hair is the first thing to go and the last to come back, when the metabolism fails, so keep with it and you'll eventually see health again.
 

Slippy

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Re: Strange hair loss pattern and generally not great Peatin

natedawggh said:
Slippy...

I know this is an old post... How's your hair journey going?

I can't believe no one told you to STOP FINASTERIDE. It's very bad for you and can have some serious long term health consequences.

You mention too that you have a history of anorexia, and yes your hair loss is directly caused by that, and by the looks of it you probably out your body through the ringer. You are doing great on your diet, but you should drop the supplements, take niacinamide and increase your carbs/calorie intake (esp. Sugar and potatoes if they don't give you problems). The coffee shakes you're getting is when you take caffeine with low blood sugar...that causes a spike in cortisol and makes you feel crappy. Never drink caffeine without having carbs. It will take some time for your metabolism/mitochondria to repair enough. Hair is the first thing to go and the last to come back, when the metabolism fails, so keep with it and you'll eventually see health again.

Thanks for the encouragement. I thought i'd give an update: I stopped taking finasteride in early April and the minoxidil foam at around the same time. After about 8 months they were both doing not enough for my hair, so I figured any benefit was minimal - I want a stop to the loss, not a delay. What's interesting is that already my skin is looking less wrinkly, probably due to dropping minox.

I've still got the same gradual loss i've had for years. My hairline is roughly the same as it was when I made my first post, maybe a few hairs worse off. The diffuse thinning remains though - the amount of scalp I can see exposed is getting more noticeable even in dimmer light. Longer hair used to look great, now not as much.

As far as diet goes, my heart rate and temperatures have increased a bit. I feel warmer now for most of the day, but I tend to crash from about 4pm onwards. I'm still making a lot of tweaks in terms of the ratios and timing of stuff like taking carbs with protein. Right now I want to lower fat a bit because i'm getting skinny fat on all the milk (thin arms and legs, but have a pot belly, baby cheeks + love handles). I can now tolerate coffee - I have about 5 cups a day and it's actually calming, strangely enough. This week I have also dropped all supplements for now, but might slowly re-introduce vitamin E as it seems important for PUFA. I have read reports of niacinimide causing hair loss on this forum so i'm wary - in theory, it should reduce FFAs, but in practice many seem to not have a good time.

Will update in a few months to let you know if I see more improvement.
 
Joined
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Messages
7,367
Dude, would you mind elaborating on this point you made a while back?

It should be a feeling of awakening, not a jolt of attention or a high. That means it's too much caffeine for the sugar.
 
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