Stopped Using Pillow

[ilikecats]

Sleeping without a pillow increases tes? Could you link a journal on that? That sounds amazing

It was a joke lol. But I do think sleeping without a pillow is ideal. Throwing out the pillow fixed some of my postural problems. I haven't used a pillow while sleeping in over a year.

 

[Prosper]

Is there a golden ratio at play with jaw width, nature, aesthetics, and standard deviation?

In short, yes. Such is the case for most animals, and archetypal humans are not an exception. It's just rare for us to reach our ideal proportions these days, which is a huge shame. Try applying these over pictures of faces that seem attractive and unattractive. You will quickly realize that the faces which fit well into these masks tend to be the most beautiful. It's not necessarily "cute" beauty, but structurally healthy beauty.

Not according to Buteyko method.
Sleeping on the back can make hyperventilation easier - makes it really easy for the chest to expand too fully, as well as increasing the likelyihood of open mouth, both of which I think might contribute to the sleep apnoea.

A lot of what Buteyko teaches is about compensating for the flaws of the modern physically degenerated man.
In my opinion, neither hyperventilation or mouth not staying shut are problems that a structurally healthy human sleeping on its back would have. I'm not well knowledgeable about the downsides of sleeping on your stomach, but like you said, neck and back pains can become a problem, along with blood flow and circulation. It's just not very "natural" position to spend hours in. Considering how primitive and un-civilized humans tend to sleep almost exclusively on their back, I would be comfortable with claiming that it's the way humans have evolved to sleep.

If you're interested in further reading about primitive sleeping habits, this is a good read about Native Americans: http://www.nancychenderson.com/MAIN...DF)_files/100 yrs w:photos FINAL for web.pdf

@Prosper These are stunning before and after photos.

I agree. It's just a shame that the lightning and camera angle aren't identical in the before and after photos. I wish more people would track and reveal their progress, because physical posture and structure are so important for health and general well being in life. The more evidence there were, the easier it would be to convince people of this. Usual reaction is ridicule and denial, because most believe that the facial structure you have is determined by your genetics. It's of course a reasonable belief, almost to the point of being common sense, but ultimately it's not true.

 

[shepherdgirl]

@Prosper
I agree, the pictures are amazing! That looks like two entirely different men! And you say he did this in a little over a year- incredible! Even his nose looks significantly broader. Do you know how they were able to make these changes? Or if it is a public forum, would it be possible to post the address or forum name? I am curious as to how they were able to change so dramatically. Thank you for posting the video too - that's fascinating how the leg length/rotation problem points to so many other issues, including a jaw problem.
I think mouth breathing could also be a cause of a set-back jaw position, judging from pictures I have seen. So possibly carbon dioxide(and hence carbohydrates) plays a role in good jaw development.

 

[bmoores]

After spending hours everyday reading books during formative years, and a decade of engineering laptop use, I felt like my neck was craned forward. So I bought a small buckwheat pillow and removed half the hulls to make a small neck support. This worked great for a year or two, and I think my posture improved. One night I just stopped using the pillow altogether. It took a few nights to get used to that, but now I sleep best on my back without a pillow. Histamine is nil and my nasal passages stay open, mouth closed. I get very good rest this way. Now I wonder if I ever really needed a pillow. Maybe the context of low inflammation and low histamine is necessary to have natural sleep breathing patterns.

There is an interesting paper on lower back pain that discusses how something like 4% of stabilizing muscle is necessary to keep the torso upright. I suspect that stabilizing the head during sleep is a minor task for the body, which it performs with ease.

A pillow seems unnatural and uncomfortable, bending the head up in a strange position. Pillows can become laden with dust critters and have chemical residue from their manufacture. If I occasionally sleep on my side, a pillow gets in the way of air flow and creates uncomfortable warm pockets by the face. I can side sleep fine with no pillow.

I remember reading one paper that suggested sleeping without a pillow allows the spine to realign more easily. I've never had spine issues and have never tested this idea.

Go spartan.

 

[tara]

A lot of what Buteyko teaches is about compensating for the flaws of the modern physically degenerated man.

I think you are right about some of his methods - designed for recovery.

Thanks a lot for this - I came across some of material from George Catlin 3-4 years ago, and then couldn't locate it again - very pleased to see some of it referred to again. This article has lots of good connections in it, including to my own issues.
He does strongly reinforced the importance of nasal breathing for health as a very high priority, and amongst other things, he observed that Native Americans used something like a 'pillow' to train it in babies, and continued to use some support for the head as adults, while lying otherwise straight on their backs.

Considering how primitive and un-civilized humans tend to sleep almost exclusively on their back, I would be comfortable with claiming that it's the way humans have evolved to sleep.

In "Shut Your Mouth" he wrote: ..."All Savage infants amongst the various Native Tribes of America, are reared in cribs (or cradles) with the back lashed to a straight board; and by the aid of a circular, concave cushion placed under the head, the head is bowed a little forward when they sleep, which prevents the mouth from falling open; thus establishing the early habit of breathing through the nostrils."

Now found also: Shut Your Mouth and Save Your Life: George Catlin

I think I mixed up some information from Ctlin with Weston Price - it may have been Catlin who described Native Americans resolving colds and flus by abandonning hunt or whatever, holing up, wrapping up in their cloak, and breathing into their hands for a few hours.

Caitlin compares infant mortality between Native Americans living in traditional ways with 'civilised' English city dwellers. I wonder how the comparison would have been with English/Scottish villagers and country folk before clearances etc pushed them into cities?

I can imagine that if there is no habit of hyperventilation, that sleeping on the back could work well. My own experience is that I've seldom been able to sleep on my back - an exception has been brief times when I had a weight on my chest (baby sleeping there). Now I'm wondering if I could deliberately employ weight to retrain sleeping on the back.

Not sure that lying on the back is general uncivilised sleeping practice, though. I think there have been other patterns in other places that involve variations on side lying, too, that may have other benefits

 

[CoolTweetPete]

I would if my jaws were structurally forward enough to avoid apnea when sleeping on back. I think sleeping on back is ideal otherwise, although it seems that even primitive people like to use something for neck support. Sleeping on side without a pillow is not fun.

Neck pains are mostly result of muscular imbalance and postural "deficiency", not your sleep position.

I think a pillow can exacerbate imbalances in some cases. Depending on how craned forward a person's head already is from poor posture, this would simply reinforce this "upper crossed" position.

I think slowly removing the pillow is a good way to begin to re-elongate the muscles of the cervical spine and neck (even if sleeping on your side!). You can go from your current pillow, to a thinner pillow, then to towels of varying thickness until you do not need them anymore. I agree that it can be unpleasant to suddenly remove the pillow if it has been used for essentially a whole lifetime. Gradual transition is recommended.

Katy Bowman has great work on this. She is quite brilliant on these topics. Her article about pillows,

https://nutritiousmovement.com/your-pillow-is-an-orthotic/

An excerpt on sleep position,

“There is no ideal sleep position in the same way there is no ideal “all day” position. Humans have been sleeping on constantly varying natural surfaces (curling or opening their body for heat regulation) for eons just like any other animal.”

 

[tara]

Not sure that lying on the back is general uncivilised sleeping practice, though. I think there have been other patterns in other places that involve variations on side lying, too, that may have other benefits

Instinctive sleeping and resting postures: an anthropological and zoological approach to treatment of low back and joint pain

 

[tara]

“There is no ideal sleep position in the same way there is no ideal “all day” position. Humans have been sleeping on constantly varying natural surfaces (curling or opening their body for heat regulation) for eons just like any other animal.”

Nice.

 

[Prosper]

I think a pillow can exacerbate imbalances in some cases. Depending on how craned forward a person's head already is from poor posture, this would simply reinforce this "upper crossed" position.

Definitely possible. But in the end the combination of different ways of using a pillow, unique pillow shapes and individual anatomies are so vast that it's hard to come up with any kind of generalizations.

 

[ecstatichamster]

sleeping on your side is best. Without a pillow it's hurting your neck. With a proper pillow it's very pleasant.

I sleep in a chair so I don't use a pillow.

 

[lollipop]

sleeping on your side is best. Without a pillow it's hurting your neck. With a proper pillow it's very pleasant.

+1 spine should be kept in line and on same plane (including head).

 

[ecstatichamster]

+1 spine should be kept in line and on same plane (including head).

I also put a pillow between my knees. Not a thick pillow, just enough to keep the spine straight.

 

[lollipop]

I also put a pillow between my knees. Not a thick pillow, just enough to keep the spine straight.

Perfect, especially with any sort of hip, back pain.

 

[tara]

sleeping on your side is best. Without a pillow it's hurting your neck. With a proper pillow it's very pleasant.

+1 spine should be kept in line and on same plane (including head).

I use a pillow, carefully shaped to get the support I want. But I think Katy and CoolTweetPete and others may have a point about this having to do with fitness. If we are trained to use pillows, the stresses of suddenly removing them would be too much. But if we were used to it, maybe there are benefits from the various stretches from the various positions we would take without them.

I also put a pillow between my knees. Not a thick pillow, just enough to keep the spine straight.

Perfect, especially with any sort of hip, back pain.

I used and loved the knee pillow for years during and after a period of serious back pain - it made a huge difference. After several years, I've recently got out of the habit again. I'm wondering if this, too, might be a matter of training and fitness. An injured or weak spine needs to be well supported, but maybe a strong and supple one trained to it benefits from the stretches of various surfaces that let the spine relax into various postures?

 

[artlange]

I sleep on my back with no pillow behind my head. a few years ago I started getting some numbness of my left thumb and index finger. there was a nerve issue in the neck at C7 C8 vertebrae. I finally solved the neck impingement issue by putting a towel of the right thickness behind my neck. ever since I used this neck support towel the numbness in the fingers has stopped.
the towel is convenient because on really cold days I can wrap it a little over my face and head and wake up a little warmer.

It also comes in handy to block the light when I take an afternoon nap..

 

[lollipop]

I use a pillow, carefully shaped to get the support I want. But I think Katy and CoolTweetPete and others may have a point about this having to do with fitness. If we are trained to use pillows, the stresses of suddenly removing them would be too much. But if we were used to it, maybe there are benefits from the various stretches from the various positions we would take without them.




I used and loved the knee pillow for years during and after a period of serious back pain - it made a huge difference. After several years, I've recently got out of the habit again. I'm wondering if this, too, might be a matter of training and fitness. An injured or weak spine needs to be well supported, but maybe a strong and supple one trained to it benefits from the stretches of various surfaces that let the spine relax into various postures?

Hi @tara I agree with the fitness aspect of support between the knees. For the head, however, support is crucial if sleeping solely on the side and is not so much a matter of fitness, but ergonomics. Have tested it on many people through the years. NOW if someone is partially on the side and partially on the belly, then you are probably accurate, a pillow might not be needed. Does that make sense?

 

[tara]

Hi @tara I agree with the fitness aspect of support between the knees. For the head, however, support is crucial if sleeping solely on the side and is not so much a matter of fitness, but ergonomics. Have tested it on many people through the years. NOW if someone is partially on the side and partially on the belly, then you are probably accurate, a pillow might not be needed. Does that make sense?

Not sure. How do you mean tested on many people? Do you know many people who were raised without pillows, and developed neck problems from side sleeping without one?

 

[lollipop]

Not sure. How do you mean tested on many people? Do you know many people who were raised without pillows, and developed neck problems from side sleeping without one?

Let me see if I can find a photo to explain what I mean. I worked the other way around. Neck injuries and problems cleared. Over a period of 30 years, not sure, a lot Tara.

 

[lollipop]

Hi @tara here are the two photos. Notice the neck strain in the unsupported neck of the bottom photo.

 

[tara]

I notice asymmetry. I don't know if that would always cause strain or injury.

I think there is evidence of people doing well without pillows in various side-lying positions, too, so I'm guessing it's not so simple as that everybody needs to be supported in a straight spine position.
But if someone has an injury or pain, I certainly believe that supporting such a position could often be really helpful.