Stomach Inflammation Need Help

[2manybugs]

Hi everybody. I came to the conclusion that the root of all my health issues is an undiagnosed stomach inflammation, which intensified in the last months and became more apparent because nausea came into the picture. I've found out the the high acid foods bothered me big time and also known irritants like coffee. The last time i had a coffee was with carbonated water and it wasn't a good experience at all. When i had a carrot salad with vinegar i started getting diarrhea and had a white coating on the tongue which started to disappear. The most disturbing part is that the mental effects are horrible, i literally feel that I'm directly irritating my brain when i eat or even when I'm hungry. My skin suffers too, i got an acne and a rash between the chest, which was on and off before and now is constant. Also my thyroid is suppressed, the last test showed TSH 2.19 was 1.38 and I'm freezing cold. I suspect a h. pylori infection, but i need some tests. I'm having hard time adjusting my diet - I'm taking lots of beef gelatin plus sugar, dairy, potatoes, chicken, coconut oil, and rice but i find no relief with these foods. Yesterday I've tried very well cooked summer squash, carrots, mushrooms and onions with chicken and that turned out a disaster, the irritation and serotonin was through the roof. What are the options for anti inflammatory drugs, i read that aspirin is no go in case of h. pylori and in stomach problems in general. I'm also considering an antibiotics approach, but i read contradictory comments. I really need some relief, because i feel I'll go insane.

 

[michael94]

Antibiotics and anti-inflammatories can exacerbate the underlying problems. Proper gut microbiota is crucial to overall health as evidenced by the power of fecal transplants.

Not all acidic foods are the same. It's kind of erroneous to lump them into one category as irritants, in my opinion. The guts of healthy people are incredibly acidic.

Based on all the things you've tried without success I would recommend fermented vegetables and possibly a quality unhomogenized yogurt if you find that agrees with you. The fermented vegetables are a good place to start, especially sauerkraut that is unpasteurized and found in the refrigerated section. You can make your own incredibly cheaply but that might not interest you at this point.

edit: It's important to understand certain gut microbes have evolved mutualism in their human hosts. They are also very competitive against other things trying to take over. This is why people get candida after an improperly controlled round of antibiotics. You kill all the competition of the harmful yeasts and other nasty critters.

 

[Mittir]

Were you having gut issues before introducing RP inspired new foods?
I think it would be a good idea to go back to previous diet and slowly
add one new food at a time and watch for reactions.

I had upset stomach for couple of days when i started raw carrot salad.
I think it was the antibiotic effect of raw carrot. It takes about 2-3 weeks
for body to get adjusted to new foods.

Milk, gelatin, potato and coconut oil can cause digestive issues.

I experimented with low dose tetracylin as a substitute for daily carrot
with good results. I was taking 50 mg of tetracyline every 2-3 days.
I do not do that regularly now. I take that small dose whenever i feel
like my metabolism is decreased. You can read up on lose dose
tetracylin therapy in acne treatment.

 

[2manybugs]

@icecreamlover As I read here in the forum sterile is what one needs to aim for, not repopulating with different strains of bacteria, which correlates with my experience so far. And i've been eating homemade yogurt made with milk which is organic as a milk can possibly be. I've stopped now because of the high lactic acid content and sauerkraut - only the smell makes me gag, can't get over that.

@Mittir Yes i was having gut problems before adjusting my diet to this style, but i was told by doctors that the mental issues are causing gut problems, not the other way around. I have this problem for more than 10 years and thanks to RP and the info in the forum now I can understand what's happening. Normally i don't have a problem with any food i eat, at least not an obvious one, i can tolerate carrots pretty well, until now i mean. And i've started adopting this style maybe 3 years ago and more strictly for about 2 years with great success - i was only improving, so i was thinking that there won't be any surprises. But i guess the gut issues needs more harsh approach like antibiotics. And the acne doesn't bother me, the mental issues are those that are unbearable.

 

[michael94]

Does the yogurt upset your stomach or did you stop mainly because you heard lactic acid is bad?

WRT the sauerkraut, I find storebought saurkraut to be pretty gross too. When I make my own it's great on meats. Pickles are very easy/tasty as well.

Nothing in nature exists with a sterile gut ( Babies have sterile guts for all of a few hours at most once they start breastfeeding ), it's ridiculous to aim for that and even if it were possible to achieve you wouldn't want it. Some bugs are bad sure, but many others aid with digestion, make vitamins, some even make CLA from the harmful PUFAs. Good bacteria are like targeted antibiotics in that they compete with the bad ones. These good ones come from fermented foods.

I think there's also more to consider than just the microbiota ( of course they play a huge role ). Having issues with every food you try suggests to me that the issue is deeper than nasty strains of bacteria and you have high intestinal permeability. If you have very high intestinal permeability even a modest amount of bad bacteria is very bad news along with protein bits seeping out into the bloodstream that shouldn't. Bacterial/yeast overgrowth and leaky gut tend to go hand in hand.

L-glutamine, zinc, vitamin A and krill oil are very good for healing the gut, in addition to fermented foods.

sources:
l-Glutamine Enhances Tight Junction Integrity by Activating CaMK Kinase 2-AMP-Activated Protein Kinase Signaling in Intestinal Porcine Epithelial C... - PubMed - NCBI ( glutamine )
Association of vitamin A and zinc status with altered intestinal permeability: analyses of cohort data from northeastern Brazil. - PubMed - NCBI ( zinc + vitamin A )
Krill oil reduces intestinal inflammation by improving epithelial integrity and impairing adherent-invasive Escherichia coli pathogenicity. - PubMed - NCBI ( krill oil )

One last thing, make sure you are not force feeding if you're not hungry. I dealt with leaky gut ( maybe not as bad as you have it ) and I found only eating when I was very hungry to be very helpful. If you are constantly bombarding your gut with things that leak proteins into the bloodstream and feed bacteria, it can be hard to get an upper hand on the issue.

 

[2manybugs]

I have never had problems with yogurt and I was eating more than a liter/kilo a day at one time. But the last time i had it, was around when the gut problems got worse and it kinda came out sour, and that didn't happen before. And I wouldn't say i have issues, just i dont feel relief when i eat them and the orange juice, coffee and carbonated water are literally irritating. I can say i'm better now, i started to feel a lot better after managed to digest a potato soup and cheese meal, which made me think that starch is a bit of a problem. Does bowel irritation always contribute to leaking gut, because it's more like spastic condition which relaxes after a period of time, like after a starchy meal? My appetite is really high right now and i want to stuff myself with calorie dense food but I know what's gonna happen so I'm eating small meals few hours apart mostly dairy, sugar and dissolved gelatin. And isnt krill oil high in unsaturated acids ?

 

[michael94]

If yogurt is one of the things that doesn't upset your gut I think you should eat it, just my 2c.

Does bowel irritation always contribute to leaking gut, because it's more like spastic condition which relaxes after a period of time, like after a starchy meal?

Can you describe exactly what happens when you eat a meal. How you feel right away, after 10 minutes, after 30 minutes etc. and how are you bowel movements?

If your appetite is high then eat, try to stick foods that are least irritating of course.

 

[PakPik]

Hi there! I'm sorry you're feeling this bad. From time to time I experience very similar things to what you describe, I was plagued with them for years. There are things that work more like long term, like helping metabolism, hormones, cutting out PUFAs as much as possible -extremely helpful-, but definitely there are moments when gut irritation is so bad it needs to be promptly and directly adressed. So I have my own little "protocol" for acute irritation. Here it is:

My go-to aids when EXTREME gut irritation ensues are famotidine and cyproheptadine. Combining the two yields much better and faster results, than any of those alone. Famotidine potently scavenges the already formed Nitric Oxide, which destroys membranes. It also promotes healing in the GI tract. Cyproheptadine helps me both with GI tract -it's a great anti Serotonin, and serotonin is also behind ulcers, irritation- and also helps calm down the vascular and brain irritation comming from all the circulating inflammatory mediators. The irritated gut gets leaky and endotoxin starts to travel to the liver and circulate systemically. In the liver, endotoxin prevents the correct use of sugar and thus the conversion of T4 to T3, so you get hypothyroid very fast with endotoxin, which is made evident by the cold extremities experienced. It also interferes with the use of sugar by any other tissue it reaches, making you functionally hypoglycemic. This is a good reading for understanding inflamamtion in the gut, how it translates to the liver, and as a warning against the omega 3 and 6. PUFAs, Leaky Gut, Endotoxemia And The Liver | Gut Critters

Back to my remedies: I take 10mg in the a.m and 10 mg at night of famotidine. And cyproheptadine: 2-3 mg three times daily. I take greater amounts or more doses of those drugs if needed. Here are links for references:

Interesting properties of the H2 antagonist famotidine | Ray Peat Forum
Famotidine is a powerful scavenger of nitric oxide (NO) | Ray Peat Forum
Cyproheptadine - a wonder drug? | Ray Peat Forum
Effect of the combinations atropine + cyproheptadine and atropine + carbenoxolone in duodenal ulcer therapy. - PubMed - NCBI

I also add very small amounts of Niacinamide ONLY as tolerated (for example, 50-100 mg after meals), because it can also aid in the healing of the membrane, and it is very protective to the nervous system

Niacinamide reverses gastric damage caused by NSAID | Ray Peat Forum

My food is mostly milk (lactose free, works for me) with honey and a little broth, when I get severe irritation, and I definitely avoid acidic and possibly irritating foods, but as my GI tract starts to recover, I start to reintroduce my orange juice, etc. I would not do probiotics or fermented food, as I believe those are counterproductive, they contain irritating and anti metabolic substances.

Finally, I apply Magnesium oil over my tummy and lay down in bed for 15-20 mins. I try to do that at least 3 times daily. It's very soothing and really helps.

I do this protocol for as long as needed, but usually a few days are enough for me. Thankfully, it works quickly for me, I think because I have a better endocrine function now and better cellular function overall.

G.I irritation can get really crazy, literally. I hope you find something that works for you and get some relief.

 

[charlie]

@PakPik

Excellent post!

 

[2manybugs]

Very valuable info indeed and correlates with my situation exactly. I've started to get lipoma as the irritation got more apparent and as i've read that's indicative of liver problems. Yesterday i've experimented with starchy meals mostly potatoes and pasta and that was big mistake - talk about brain irritation and now. I guess the starch feeds the bacteria directly inside the stomach. But i've remembered that years back I had similar problem but not to that degree and i underwent an endoscopy and after a biopsy they've found an h. pylori infection which i didnt treated back then. And several month ago i was prescribed cifexime antibiotic for flu which was pretty bad, which gave me severe diarrhea for several days and after that the things started go get worse. So believe i'll benefit from antibiotic or something antibacterial like coriander as i was suggested by icecreamlover.
Cyproheptadine is not available in my country anymore. It was 2 year back and was dirt cheap. I'm struggling to find an EU pharma to order from without prescription. If someone can suggest a place i'll be more than thankful.

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Hi there! I'm sorry you're feeling this bad. From time to time I experience very similar things to what you describe, I was plagued with them for years. There are things that work more like long term, like helping metabolism, hormones, cutting out PUFAs as much as possible -extremely helpful-, but definitely there are moments when gut irritation is so bad it needs to be promptly and directly adressed. So I have my own little "protocol" for acute irritation. Here it is:

My go-to aids when EXTREME gut irritation ensues are famotidine and cyproheptadine. Combining the two yields much better and faster results, than any of those alone. Famotidine potently scavenges the already formed Nitric Oxide, which destroys membranes. It also promotes healing in the GI tract. Cyproheptadine helps me both with GI tract -it's a great anti Serotonin, and serotonin is also behind ulcers, irritation- and also helps calm down the vascular and brain irritation comming from all the circulating inflammatory mediators. The irritated gut gets leaky and endotoxin starts to travel to the liver and circulate systemically. In the liver, endotoxin prevents the correct use of sugar and thus the conversion of T4 to T3, so you get hypothyroid very fast with endotoxin, which is made evident by the cold extremities experienced. It also interferes with the use of sugar by any other tissue it reaches, making you functionally hypoglycemic. This is a good reading for understanding inflamamtion in the gut, how it translates to the liver, and as a warning against the omega 3 and 6. PUFAs, Leaky Gut, Endotoxemia And The Liver | Gut Critters

Back to my remedies: I take 10mg in the a.m and 10 mg at night of famotidine. And cyproheptadine: 2-3 mg three times daily. I take greater amounts or more doses of those drugs if needed. Here are links for references:

Interesting properties of the H2 antagonist famotidine | Ray Peat Forum
Famotidine is a powerful scavenger of nitric oxide (NO) | Ray Peat Forum
Cyproheptadine - a wonder drug? | Ray Peat Forum
Effect of the combinations atropine + cyproheptadine and atropine + carbenoxolone in duodenal ulcer therapy. - PubMed - NCBI

I also add very small amounts of Niacinamide ONLY as tolerated (for example, 50-100 mg after meals), because it can also aid in the healing of the membrane, and it is very protective to the nervous system

Niacinamide reverses gastric damage caused by NSAID | Ray Peat Forum

My food is mostly milk (lactose free, works for me) with honey and a little broth, when I get severe irritation, and I definitely avoid acidic and possibly irritating foods, but as my GI tract starts to recover, I start to reintroduce my orange juice, etc. I would not do probiotics or fermented food, as I believe those are counterproductive, they contain irritating and anti metabolic substances.

Finally, I apply Magnesium oil over my tummy and lay down in bed for 15-20 mins. I try to do that at least 3 times daily. It's very soothing and really helps.

I do this protocol for as long as needed, but usually a few days are enough for me. Thankfully, it works quickly for me, I think because I have a better endocrine function now and better cellular function overall.

G.I irritation can get really crazy, literally. I hope you find something that works for you and get some relief.

Thank you PakPik for this comprehensive post! I too am in great need of this counsel as I begin my Peat journey to health.

A couple questions...

I also add very small amounts of Niacinamide ONLY as tolerated (for example, 50-100 mg after meals), because it can also aid in the healing of the membrane, and it is very protective to the nervous system

What do you mean by ONLY as tolerated? What problem can it cause?

I would not do probiotics or fermented food, as I believe those are counterproductive, they contain irritating and anti metabolic substances.

Do probiotics contain irritating and antimetabolic substances, or just the fermented foods? Taking probiotics occassionally helps with my gut function.

Thank you again! :p

 

[PakPik]

@charlie Thank you for the warm welcome, and thank you for the forum, it has been tremendously helpful.

Thank you PakPik for this comprehensive post! I too am in great need of this counsel as I begin my Peat journey to health.

A couple questions...



What do you mean by ONLY as tolerated? What problem can it cause?



Do probiotics contain irritating and antimetabolic substances, or just the fermented foods? Taking probiotics occassionally helps with my gut function.

Thank you again! :p

Hi Maureen! I'm glad to share my observations with you. In the beginning it's very confusing, but there's a wealth of information in this forum and from good researchers out there, which is such a blessing. I'm very grateful for that, and I'm very hopeful for you :)

Regarding niacinamide, it has a kind of strong quality to it in the sense that it could further irritate by direct contact an alrerady extremely irritated G.I tract, so it would be wise to wait till inflammation calms down some before introducing it (at least that's what I do, because if I introduce it at the height of irritation it burns). And then, when you introduce it successfully it only helps to heal.

Fermented foods and probs- fermented foods definitely have irritating/anti-metabolic substances, such as lactic acid, and Ray even said that lactic acid produced by bacteria is more toxic than the one produced by humans. He mentioned it here, a good interview by the way Alkalinity vs Acidity 2012, KMUD : The Herb Doctors | Ray Peat Forum. Regarding probiotics, the issue is less straight forward. Undoubtedly some people do feel benefits from them, but the research is so new, so confusing, so guessworky in many ways, that I prefer to steer away from them. What if some are dangerous? We don't know for sure how they exert the supposedly benefitial effects, I mean, even Ray said that some bacteria produce anti inflammatory compounds that may be beneficial,but reading things like this leaves me wondering Probiotics powerfully suppress the immune system | Ray Peat Forum. Also, if a person has a background of SIBO/Bad gut motility -which many low calorie, hypothyroid, low carbing people do-, probiotics are usually not recommended, as they would just make SIBO worse. Just things to consider.

 

[tara]

Regarding niacinamide, it has a kind of strong quality to it in the sense that it could further irritate by direct contact an alrerady extremely irritated G.I tract, so it would be wise to wait till inflammation calms down some before introducing it (at least that's what I do, because if I introduce it at the height of irritation it burns).

Lots of good ideas.
I wonder whether it would be helpful to dissolve the niacinamide in water and applying it topically? I don't have the same gut issues, but I'm with you on trying small amounts of niacinamide before going for big ones - blood sugar can sometimes go down fast with big doses.

 

[PakPik]

Lots of good ideas.
I wonder whether it would be helpful to dissolve the niacinamide in water and applying it topically? I don't have the same gut issues, but I'm with you on trying small amounts of niacinamide before going for big ones - blood sugar can sometimes go down fast with big doses.

Well Tara, I once burned the skin on my face with a niacinamide solution. It was too concentrated, but of course if you dilute it enough it would work fine, I just don't know the recommended percentage for that purpose. When my gut issues settled down, I was able to manage high doses, grams per day. Of course, it would be unwise if your stomach or blood sugar can't handle it.

 

[tara]

Well Tara, I once burned the skin on my face with a niacinamide solution.

Bother. I've only used it topically quite dilute (or small amounts orally, also dilute).

 

[Mmmaurshmallows]

Thank you again Pakpik for further clarification. It definitely helps.

I have a fresh batch of sauerkraut in my fridge. What's a girl to do? Interestingly, this brings up something I want to post looking for some help. Looking back over 15 years since I began LCHF, the ability of my body to handle sour things (pickles, vinegar, wine, sauerkraut, etc) has basically disappeared. I've never really liked sour, except for lemon or lime juice. Even most fruits were too sour...never liked them. But give me wedding cake or grape juice or marshmallows and I was happy! Now that I'm Peating it's come so clear that my body has been sugar (carb) deficient all along...and 50 years is a long time! I've always had poor digestion and probably needed more glucose than my body was getting. Do you have any thoughts on this? Do you think it's acid-alkaline related?

Funny thing about the niacinamide, I don't swallow pills, so I took a little bit out of the capsule. It did seem kind of acidic, so I had the idea to mix it with oil and apply topically. Now I have 2 reasons to do so!

Glad you finally joined the forum!

 

[michael94]

Fermented foods and probs- fermented foods definitely have irritating/anti-metabolic substances, such as lactic acid, and Ray even said that lactic acid produced by bacteria is more toxic than the one produced by humans. He mentioned it here, a good interview by the way Alkalinity vs Acidity 2012, KMUD : The Herb Doctors | Ray Peat Forum. Regarding probiotics, the issue is less straight forward. Undoubtedly some people do feel benefits from them, but the research is so new, so confusing, so guessworky in many ways, that I prefer to steer away from them. What if some are dangerous? We don't know for sure how they exert the supposedly benefitial effects, I mean, even Ray said that some bacteria produce anti inflammatory compounds that may be beneficial,but reading things like this leaves me wondering Probiotics powerfully suppress the immune system | Ray Peat Forum. Also, if a person has a background of SIBO/Bad gut motility -which many low calorie, hypothyroid, low carbing people do-, probiotics are usually not recommended, as they would just make SIBO worse. Just things to consider.

Probiotic supplements are new, eating these sorts of bacteria is not. Cultures have been consuming fermented dairy products for as long as they have been consuming dairy period. Fermented cabbage is thousands of years old...it's popular not just in one country but in many and with different flavors/varieties. I think the burden of proof is on research to show that fermented foods ( not lactic acid in vacuum ) increase inflammation and various pathologies. I have not seen any such proof...fermented foods benefit me so I'm biased but
the overwhelming evidence is in favor of there being beneficial bacteria. I had leaky gut, I healed it with colostrum, zinc, some glutamine powder and adding in loads of various fermented foods to my diet. Others might not tolerate fermented foods for various reasons but for those that do without problems I think it would be a mistake to write off probiotics/fermented foods.

Regarding how they exert beneficial effecs...They keep endotoxin producing bacteria in check. If one is worried about lactic acid...well LPS is in it's own league with regard to damaging effects. Beyond that, they protect against various other pathogens, produce vitamins, help digest irritating substances...some even turn harmful pufas into beneficial CLA.

 

[kaybb]

Probiotic supplements are new, eating these sorts of bacteria is not. Cultures have been consuming fermented dairy products for as long as they have been consuming dairy period. Fermented cabbage is thousands of years old...it's popular not just in one country but in many and with different flavors/varieties. I think the burden of proof is on research to show that fermented foods ( not lactic acid in vacuum ) increase inflammation and various pathologies. I have not seen any such proof...fermented foods benefit me so I'm biased but
the overwhelming evidence is in favor of there being beneficial bacteria. I had leaky gut, I healed it with colostrum, zinc, some glutamine powder and adding in loads of various fermented foods to my diet. Others might not tolerate fermented foods for various reasons but for those that do without problems I think it would be a mistake to write off probiotics/fermented foods.

Regarding how they exert beneficial effecs...They keep endotoxin producing bacteria in check. If one is worried about lactic acid...well LPS is in it's own league with regard to damaging effects. Beyond that, they protect against various other pathogens, produce vitamins, help digest irritating substances...some even turn harmful pufas into beneficial CLA.

I have read where Ray advises against fermented foods. Do you have evidence or some info to back up your last statement. I love fermented food and gave them up when I started RP.

 

[michael94]

http://datateca.unad.edu.co/contenidos/401585/Bacteria_as_vitamin_suppliers.pdf
Linoleic acid isomerase in Lactobacillus plantarum AKU1009a proved to be a multi-component enzyme system requiring oxidoreduction cofactors. - PubMed - NCBI

linoleic acid = probably the worst pufa

 

[tara]

I've never really liked sour, except for lemon or lime juice. ... Do you think it's acid-alkaline related?

Not an expert opinion, but it wouldn't surprise me if it's related. Maybe your system has been running a bit on the acid side. My tastes are bit like that too.
Testable with pH strips. I don't know about limes, but lemons are reputed to have generally alkalinising effects.
IIRC, Peat has said a craving for sour may indicate a need for vit-C.