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Steroid Cycle: Test P + Masteron Questions & Discussion

  1. Hi all,

    I am a professional athlete, looking to enhance my performance.

    The goal is to recover faster, gain strength, better conditioning. So all about better performance.

    Muscle gain is not necessarly the goal here, but its a welcoming side effect.

    I am aware of steroid use, have a little bit of experience with it in the past and did a great amount of reading/research before I decided to do my first full cycle. Main reason why I have included the propionate ester is because of shorter detection time with drug/doping testing and also because its known to have lesser estrogenic side effects (the testosterone). I will also include the DHT Masteron.

    It will look like this:
    8-12 weeks in length
    3-4 days a week (Mo-Mi-Fr)
    100mg Testosterone Propionate
    50-100mg Masteron (Drostanolone Propionate)

    PCT: Here is where I have questions to you all.
    The "standard" protocol is to include
    Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)
    Aromasin (Exemestane)

    Do you have any suggestions on how to do a "safer" or lesser toxic PCT.

    Any tips welcome.
  2. I'd suggest using only aromasin and use it conjuction with 10-20mg's of pregnenolone and 4 mg's twice a day of dhea
  3. Why aromasin?
  4. @Risingfire How much aromasin (mg) would you use, and would you use everyday?
    Also for how long would you use this protocol including aromasin, pregnenolone and dhea?
  5. To keep estrogen down
  6. 6mgs of aromasin every other day for a month.

    What’s the league’s policy on preg and dhea? Are they illegal supplements?
  7. You need to pin propionate esters daily for stable blood levels.

    Take HCG throughout for the pregnenolone cascade. It will prevent some of the neuronal side effects by allowing your body to continue producing neurosteroids. 250iu 2x per week.

    For PCT wait 10 days after the last injection then start 20mg nolvadex per day for four weeks.
  8. Thank you.
    Pregnenolone is perfectly fine. Dhea would be illegal under WADA, but as of now I am not competing with drug testing. I will probably in the future though. As longer esters and other steroids (like T-Enanthate, Nandrolone etc.) can be detectable for quite some time (couple of month) I am going to choose things which are detectable for a shorter time period (I believe its about only 2 weeks for T-Propionate and the Drostanolone).
  9. From my research, every 2nd day is also fine. To be honest I dont want to inject every single day.

    For how long would you take the HCG 2xweek a 250iu? I am guessing 3-4 weeks? Also, when would you start with the HCG + Preg/Dhea?

    What is your opinion on using aromasin only instead of nolvadex. I think it is a "safer" drug.
  10. Your research is wrong, you most deffinetly need to pin propionate daily.

    Propionate has an half-life of 0.8 days, you can enter it in steroidcalc.com to see what rollercoaster ticket you would buy pinning EOD.

    Most posts/guides you find on the Internet are operating with flawed data on half lives.

    If it's your first cycle ditch the Masteron, starting with two components makes things way more complicated. You need to know first how you react to test and what side-effects you get.

    It's rather easy to recover from a short test prop cycle, 4 to 6 weeks of aromasin only should do the job. HCG / DHEA have no place in an PCT, they are suppressive. Nolva and clomid are toxic as ****, nobody should ever touch them.
  11. You should do the following;

    - Test P only for 4-6 weeks / first half, find out your best dose
    - mast P on top for the second half of the cycle but look up detection times here
    - HCG throughout, 250iu twice weekly

    You won’t need a pct. You won’t need anti estrogens. Just keep running HCG for one week after your cycle is done, then wait for about a week and inject Triptorelin PHARMA, which is sold in packages of 7x100mcg. There are various case studies out there. Using 2-3 vials on consecutive days will do.

    Since you don’t want to get busted for drug use I’d stick to test P, HCG, Trip. Strongly recommend adding HGH in there.

    Look up detection times for various oral AAS and sarms as well.
  12. Thank you. When I look at the graph you are right. It would be a more stable course when injecting every day.

    I guess I need to find out what works best for myself. I want to keep the dosage around 300mg per week in total.

    And I think you are right, I should first use Test-P on its own for a couple of weeks to see how my body is reacting to it. Then I can add Masteron on second half of the cycle like @nbznj mentioned.

    What would be your recommended dosage for the Aromasin in PCT?
  13. Thank you. Sounds good to me. I´ve looked up the detection time for Masteron (Drostanolone Propionate) and it is 2 weeks.

    I have read about the use of HCG 250iu 2xweek throughout the cycle many times. What is the opinion of others about that? @sebastian_r would you consider using it on cycle?

    What are your experiences with HGH?

    Most orals are out of the system quickly (3-4 weeks). I dont consider using Sarms at the moment. Limited research about them. You could do more harm than good in my opinion.
  14. 300mg/week test is reasonable for first cycle.

    You won't get much benefit from 2-3 weeks of masteron, it really doesn't do much for your goals but can get you in trouble in terms of DHT side effects if your estradiol is high at the same time (hairloss and prostate swelling).

    I would experiment with anything between 2.5-6mg/day aromasin for PCT and adjust up or down based on the results.

    You can use HCG during the cycle to keep the boys going, though it could easily give you more side effects than the test prop. I get insane boost of estradiol when I use HCG, not touching it anymore. If you take aromasin during the cycle, you can reduce shutdown via negative feedback loop as well.

    Though a short test prop cycle is really not that hard on your systems in terms of shutdown.
  15. Thank you so much Sebastian.

    So I think I will do a test prop only cycle then for about 8-10 weeks and see how my body feels on it. I will definitely report on here, so other users who are interested can follow.

    I will keep aromasin on hand for on cycle, and then definitely using it post. Would it be good to use e3d / e4d (or more frequently?) while on at a low dose to control shutdown?

    What is your opinion on the use of pregnenolone when doing AAS. I think Haidut has mentioned the importance of its use while using AAS several times.
  16. Pregnenolone tends to increase cortisol on AAS. HCG is what you want. It will stimulate LH to produce pregnenolone and it’s downstream metabolites endogenously. I think someone above scared you off from HCG by mentioning it’s estrogenic. It is, but barely. The issue is many bodybuilders use ridiculously large doses of it. 250iu 2x per week like I and bzznj posted above shouldn’t elevate your estrogen excessively. It’s whats recommended by the top endocrinologist’s and researchers in the field.

    Look out for hair loss on aromasin/exemestane.
  17. You need to research more.

    HCG isn’t administered as a PCT, but in conjunction to your cycle.
    Aromasin-only as a PCT.

    If you want to gamble with how you react to Clomid and Nolva, be prepared for the ride.

    Lastly, why go through creating scar tissue for such small dosage.
    You can manufacture yourself a transdermal with DMSO that will be just as potent.

    Same for Masteron: manufacture your own DHT in DMSO.
    I can guarantee you you will not receive Masteron, however good you think your source is.
  18. Alright, got it. I will add the HCG 250iu 2x per week on cycle.

    If using aromasin (what i plan on doing) it will be very low doses.
  19. Yep, got it, thanks.

    On cycle i will do HCG and also low-dose aromasin e3d day or so.

    Aromasin-only at about 2.5 - 10mg as PCT for about 4 weeks.

    Yeah, will be a lot of scar tissue cause of the frequent injections. However I will use the propionate ester, as it has a way shorter detection time. Need to have good skin care I guess :)
  20. Scar tissue is not that big of an issue. Get yourself some insulin pins to use and just avoid pinning the exact same spot over and over again.
    Ventro glute is the easiest/safest injection spot in my opinion. Chest is also good. Mid delt is good assuming you have a decent amount of muscle tissue. Avoid glutes and quads - despite what bodybuilders might tell you these are some of the absolute worst spots to inject. I’ve tried nearly every muscle group, with daily injections for the last 6 years I have a lot of practice.
  21. I think using both dhea and preg would be helpful in bridging back to natural production. You'll probably get more pimples, though
  22. Wouldn't oxandrolone be safer than masteron and produce less sides (lipids, hair loss)
  23. I bet this is allot healthier/safer, but do you really think it could give close to the results of the cycle OP originally layed out?
  24. How do you manage to get test out of insulin needle? It took like 1 minute to get test out of 27 g for me can't imagine how long it would take for insulin needle.
  25. Of course not. Did he say that’s the goal?
  26. I took it as he is looking for a cycle to increase athletic performance (somewhat on par with how much the cycle he layed out would increase athletic performance).

    And then he also asked about a safer PCT.

    So I was asking if the cycle u layed out would be comparable to the one he laid out in terms of performance.

    I'm guessing you took it that he was open to ideas for other cycles that could increase athletic performance, even if they would not increase athletic performance as much, if it was safer.
  27. Man I was considering adding Anavar at 15-30mg/day for 4-6 weeks instead of the masteron. This should add some good strength. The cost for var is relative high though.
  28. Increasing athletic performance is definitely what i am after.

    And yeah, I was asking for a safer PCT.

    Thanks to everyones opinion and suggestions.
  29. And often faked with winstrol
  30. Depends on what the steroid is brewed in. Good brewers have switched to thinner oils like MCT, or its derivatives, that flow quickly even through a slin pin.
  31. Wait for the propionate PIP and see for yourself.
    Not many can handle it.
  32. You can get two months of Andractim(plain dht) for about $315
  33. For anybody who has problem with pip from prop or does not want top pin daily, they should give phenylpropionate a go.

    It has a half life of 1.8 days and can be pinned EOD. It has way less pip than prop. It's by far my favourite ester.

    Though it has a bit more conversion to estradiol than prop due to the higher half live, it's still way below enanthate or cypionate.

    Not many brands offer it solo though (it's normally one of the esters in sustanon).

    One store / brand that has it is int.basicstero.ws (thats the ecom store from pharmacom labs, you buying direct from the lab). Other brands where I have seen it are Spectrum Pharma and ZPHC but I don't have any experience with those two brands. Pharmacom has legit masteron as well.
  34. Sounds interesting to me. Pharmacom seems to be a good source for T-Phenylpropionate. You only had good experiences with it, is what i understand? The only conccern I have is the detection time for it. I cant really find information about it. Do you think its about the same as regular propionate, which is 2-3 weeks.
  35. Yes Pharmacom testosterone is as good as it get (while taking into consideration that it's an underground lab).

    With detection time as factor, I would stick to the normal propionate. Phenylpropionate would propably already double or tripple detection time. Though I would look into suspension or oil base as well.

    And maybe try to get pharmagrade (farmak, balkan pharma, if you can't get those pharmacom prop should be fine too) to make 100% sure that there is no unwanted contamination.
  36. Thank you!

    Found this out of another forum, whats your opinion? I mean he could be right - 36 days would be about 5-6 weeks, which is ok to me. This also would match with your assessment that it is double or tripple of regular t-p.

    I did a little reading and found that all the testosterone compounds listed on the drug detection lists seem to be detectable by approximately 5-6x the duration of their release.
    Cyp and Enth release for 10-14 days and are detectable for up to three months. (14x6=84 days.) Prop releases for 2-3 days and is detectable for up to two weeks. (3x6=18 days.) Phenylpropianate releases for up to 6 days so it should clear the system by 6x6=36 days???? Of course this could all be totally wrong. Sound reasonable?
  37. Are you concerned with hair loss?
  38. Why the question?
  39. Because of how things like masteron and higher dosage of testosterone greatly accelerate hair loss
  40. I am not really concerned about it at the moment.
  41. @sebastian_r @olive & all others

    What do you think about including Anavar 15-30mg/day (alongside the T-Propio/Phenylpropio) for the last 6 weeks of the cycle? Does it do anything positive in terms of additional gains in strength / athletic performance or is it rather a substance that’s just too expensive for the minimal advantage that it brings?
  42. I like it. Get some taurine to prevent painful pumps from the var and to protect leydig cells. There’s some dodgy research showing large doses of caffeine significantly enhance anavar - might be worth considering. Drink plenty of fluids. Anavar messes with kidneys.
  43. It takes about 4-6 weeks to achieve full saturation as it is, so 8 weeks sounds to be ineffective. 12-15 weeks seems most appropriate. If its your first real cycle, conventional advice is to stick to test and maybe an oral, like anavar.

    My approach, first cycle, was to take Test E 15 weeks @500 mg, then drop to 125mg for 5 weeks alongside anavar @25 mg a day to pull the water and fat out that i accumulated on blast. Worked incredibly well in my case, gained a ton of strength and mass, then cut the fat off. On cycle i ran some HCG and aromasin, once i finished i did a nolva PCT and finished the rest of my HCG.

    My cardio was relatively minimal though, hiking with my dog maybe 5x a week. I would look towards other PEDs for aerobic gains. AAS raise RBC count, so there's use in that, and in recovery from cardio, but again there's better stuff out there.
  44. Full saturation means nothing. You are anabolic after the first pin. 8 weeks is plenty effective. Past 6-8 weeks you are fighting a losing battle against myostatin anyway, so the risk:reward ratio is skewed negatively.
  45. @olive do you always cycle and cruise in between?
  46. What do you think about in terms of stuff for improved cardio?
  47. So you wouldn’t go longer than 8 weeks?
  48. I have everything on hand now.

    Did my first injection of 100mg of Testosterone Phenylpropionate in ventro glute as @olive suggested. No pip at all so far.

    Feeling motivated (wanting to do things, move/train) and energized since injection earlier today. Also a lot more hungry :)

    I will keep you all updated how things are going. Peace
  49. What is the best oral testosterone designer steroid out there? I am not a fan of needles mainly because of seed oil. I’d much rather use suspended T over seed oil T but oral T is what I want.
  50. Most brewers have switched to MCT oil, or its derivatives.

    But to answer your question; dianabol is probably the best choice as you need something that converts to estrogen.
  51. I prefer turinabol over anavar, but I don't think you need either during your first cycle. In any case go 4-6 weeks max with orals.

    If I take orals I do 2-3days on 1-2 days off, to make it more bearable.

    Orals can be hard on the body in terms of sides. Giving my body a small break from it every 2-3days helps me a lot with the sides.

    Other smart guys rotate additional drugs to testosterone e.g. 2-3days an oral, then 2-3days an short ester injectable.
  52. Wtf?!!! Why would I need something that convers to estrogen?
  53. Oral T would be Testosterone Undecanoate. Brand name is Andriol Testocaps by Organon.
    You would need to take a lot of caps every day of it though, to see a performance or muscle building effect. So it’s pretty cost intensive. Usually that’s why people don’t use it, at least athletes etc.
    Can be a good substitute for injection, it is not harmful for the liver and provides Testosterone in an oil solution. And it’s convenient. But like I said very expensive and very mild in effectiveness.
  54. Why do you like T-bol more than Anavar. What’s the difference in your opinion?
  55. Low estrogen leads to hair loss, brittle bones, sore joints, limp ****, no sex drive, emotionless, dry skin, impairs memory formation, impairs growth, etc.

    When you take exogenous steroids the body will downregulate and eventually shutdown endogenous T production. Without T the body has no way to create estrogen, so you must take a ‘base’ steroid that converts to estrogen or you’ll run into the problems I listed above. Remember estrogen is also anabolic, studies show T with no estrogen leads to fat gain - T with estrogen leads to muscle growth.
  56. Not sure this route is better than improving your training routine, but it’s your choice.

    Also, I never quite understood why cycles are ever done without OCT. OCT improves the cycle, prevents shutdown, and reduces the stress from the PCT.

    For example, I would do:

    4 weeks OCT buildup:
    Test Booster Combo Pack
    You can replace the SDAA with any other test booster that works for you.
    Hi -Tech pharma has decent arimistane products also, but Thor’s hammer has other ingredients you’ll need for the liver, kidney, heart etc.

    First 4 weeks of cycle:
    Continue OCT
    Slowly add in test prop

    Next 8 weeks (start of full cycle):
    Continue OCT (add in letrozole if stronger is needed)
    Test prop
    Add in masteron

    Next 4 weeks:
    Continue OCT/letrozole
    Reduce test prop
    Finish masteron

    Next 4-8 weeks:
    Continue OCT/PCT
    Reduce letrozole but keep arimistane to destroy the estrogen letrozole tied up
    Add in any other natural substitutes: pine pollen, tongkat Ali, nettle root, turmeric (rivals tamoxifen in effectiveness), etc. to normalize the body’s hormone levels.

    Someone else mentioned keeping blood levels steady, which is a valid point. However, I do not do this and I still make gains, permanent gains. The gains come slower sure, but no side effects and it’s permanent. When I come off completely, I don’t “lose all my gains”.

    This is why I suggest improving your training (check out Westside Barbell methods), because I can take a ridiculous cycle and get crazy, but it’ll never last, and I don’t always come out ahead either. Nothing improved my gains like improving my training programming and organization.

  57. Interestingly odd. Where can I find those studies of testosterone leading to weightgakns?
  58. You misunderstand. Low estrogen (caused by aromatase inhibitors) leads to weight gain due to impaired glucose metabolism and poor insulin sensitivity.
  59. Ok got you. But all what you say is not so peaty. Besides I got so interestef in what you said so I reseaeched quite a bit. I stumbled upon haiduts anabolic thread on properties of hormones that stimulate anabolism. An anabolic substabce as per his thread is a substances that bind to GR and exert anti catabolic effecrs. Such substances are hormones like testosterone and progesterone. Non of which is estrogenic or have estrogenic effects. Estrogrn is catabolic as it id involved in stress metabolism as per posts from haidut and various other members and per dr ray peat. Now unless you are reffeeing to swollen like effects of estrogen on the body and muscles specifically, estrogen has no anabolic effects.
  60. Haidut is a very well read man but his knowledge of the endocrine system is flawed. Estrogen is absolutely crucial for muscle growth. As is the AR. GR modulation prevents catabolism but does not induce anabolism. Read a steroid forum for a little while, they hold more knowledge than you’d think.

    Estrogen is absolutely not catabolic. Anyone who told you that has a very poor understanding. Estrogen is as anabolic as it gets. It’s a powerful growth stimulator - for good and for bad.
  61. Good point. @Momado965 you should definitely use some Testosterone, or as olive said something that can convert to E as a „base“.
    If you use DHT-derivates on its own (in higher dosages, for a longer time) I think you can definitely run into some problems.
    Sarms could be an alternative for you. I don’t know much about them and their safety though.
  62. Intertesting.
  63. I finally dug up that study. Low estrogen leads to increased fat gain and worsened sexual function.

    “..estrogen deficiency primarily accounted for increases in body fat; and both contributed to the decline in sexual function. ”

    Estrogen is lipolytic, anabolic and increases insulin sensitivity. Low estrogen is linked to hair loss, libido issues, worsened sexual performance, dry skin, depression, memory issues, high blood sugar, etc. Why this forum is obsessed with lowering it beyond the healthy range is beside me.
  64. Heres what saturation means. Despite running say Test E at a constant dose every week, from week 1, endogenous levels will continue to rise through to 4-6 weeks, at which point they stabilize provided dose is kept constant.

    OP is taking Test P, much shorter half-life, so saturation will occur sooner, and this was my bad here, I thought he said test C.. nevertheless this is a pretty well recognized and agreed upon feature of cycling.
  65. Very interesting. I agree that estrogen shouldn’t be tanked. There are some good forms of estrogen. I think estrogen metabolism/detox is often overlooked.

    However, I am not sure I would call estrogen anabolic. I do not think anything female is anabolic. The only reason progesterone is “anabolic” is because it blocks estrogen, but too much and it tanks testosterone too, causing enlargement of the breasts.

    Sure muscle can be built various ways, but they are not all anabolic. Taking creatine and pumping the muscles until they split will divide the cells and cause growth also, but I wouldn’t say it’s anabolic. This is why creatine causes bloat, similar to estrogen.

    Anabolism is more about pure muscle growth without the cell swelling, and burning fat at the same time. As in only taking sugar and aminos and creating new proteins.

    This is the preferred method, which is why this forum advocates it. Besides with all the estrogens in the environment, you really should keep it low. You’re already getting flooded by it daily.

    At the same time, I believe you are wholly correct that there is an optimal ratio of androgens to estrogen for each person. The ratio is what matters most.

    For me, I cannot live without pine pollen. I get far better results from it than anything else even though it’s not very strong. But it contains all four male sex hormones, keeps the endocrine system strong, all while keeping the hormone balance in a healthy ratio.

    A plethora of androgens with low/controlled estrogen and cortisol is what keeps me lean and mentally sharp. Oh and plenty of dopamine. Dopamine is a game changer!
  66. Have you considered taking haiduts calcirol, vitamin k, androsterone, and Metergoline?

    That is VERY anabolic for me.

    Calcirol keeps my cortisol low. It actually made me more tan without the Sun.

    Vitamin K2 is very anabolic for my muscles and bones as it boosts testosterone.

    Androsterone will keep estrogen low and turn into DHT.

    And Metergoline blocks serotonin which improves bone strength.

    The entire combination was very anabolic for my muscles but especially my bones. If you want to get strong then increase bone strength.

    I am not joking when I say my lifts all went up like a hundred pounds. It was insane.
  67. The only OCT you would need is HCG to keep your balls active, no amount of « test booster » will do jack ***t for your HPTA while it’s receiving a high exogenous T signal.

    And also: « letrozole »...? I don’t think you understand the strength of that compound, don’t go around giving bad advice like this, some people might think you are serious.

    And all of you @Momado965 and yourself better start reading what @olive says about estrogen, he is spot on.

    If you don’t understand the critical importance of estrogen beyond what literature says, it means you haven’t played enough with AIs and crashed your estrogens before.
  68. Anabolism: you build the cells the body needs. Eating is anabolic, sleeping is anabolic, androgens are anabolic, estrogens are anabolic.
    Catabolism: you break down. Work out is catabolic, chronic stress is catabolic, cortisol is catabolic, fasting is catabolic.

    Estrogens build collagen, bones, tissue, hair...and you are telling me they aren’t anabolic?

    What’s with «nothing female is anabolic »?

    I would try to talk in less clear-cut terms until you get some more book knowledge, failing some real-life knowledge.
  69. I am living proof you are wrong- on all of your statements.

    Do what works best for you though.
  70. You are very contradictory. Stress is catabolic, yet estrogen (a stress hormone) is anabolic? That makes sense...

    Swelling the cell is not forming new cells from raw materials. Swelling the cell until it splits is catabolic unless you eat enough.

    Yes, no female hormones are anabolic. Female hormones increase body fat, water retention, and breast size for giving birth. Hardly anabolic.

    Collagen is stress related and not good for you. You can do all the other things you stated without estrogen.

    Thanks though, I always enjoy when the emotionally bias present themselves as free thinkers.
  71. HCG?

    You really love your female hormones.

    So I guess that’s why transgender men take male hormones, so they look like women....
  72. Lol wtf dude but its funny though. I know a ton of bodybuilders who take hcg to restore lh and fsh function. The claim is basically lh and fsh to jumpstart T production. However, more or excess lh and fsh correlate negatively with testicular T production.
  73. HCG doesn’t restore lh and fsh.
    HCG mimics lh, suppressing your endogenous lh production.
    HMG mimics fsh.

    @Satellite you still have a lot of hormone reading to do, would be good if you coupled it to empirical experience.
    This is not the place to educate you on the topic, I would advise you scroll the serious AAS forums.
    And I mean the serious ones
  74. Of Course. I was taking androsterone, pansterone, pregnenolone, Vitamins, Supplements (creatine etc.) .. all of that

    Nothing gives you the ability to recover as fast, and to train again hard the next day, or even for a second time on the same day than AAS do.

    I am not even 2 weeks into the cycle and can already say this.

    That being said, I am still taking the Vitamins like D, K2 etc. and Androsterone sometimes.
  75. Yeah, taking Test PP / Test P. Will do about 10-12 weeks probably. I will add an oral for 4-6 weeks in the next couple of weeks.

    So far so good, no side effects so far, no need for AI (Aromasin). Test is at about 300-400mg / week, HCG every 3rd to 4th or so. Proviron added in some days.

    Feeling good, gained weight (muscle / water), recovery is faster, gym performance better. Very hungry all the time though haha
  76. That shouty poster is bonkers. Too much estrogen in the brain maybe.

    The substances I named are ideal for the reason you state. They’re not extreme on the HPTA, so it gets activated just enough - in a masculine way.

    Hormones cause expression. Why would you want to express femininity if you are a male athlete?!?! This is insanity.

    Bodybuilders use these hacks, because bodybuilding is as unnatural as it gets.

    Bodybuilding is hacking.

    Athletes are not bodybuilders and should refrain from anything related if they want to maintain athleticism.
  77. Oh that sounds perfect...

    Talking with you is a waste of time.
    Try putting down the books and using the brain instead.
  78. Oh ok nice. True about the AAS too. Much of what you said can be attributed to the increased metabolism though.

    I am just not sure it is ideal for you. Unless you are a linebacker or sumo wrestler etc. where size is imperative to your sport, I rarely see a time where more size benefits an athlete.

    The only time is if that size is accompanied by an equal or greater amount of strength.

    For example, you gain twenty pounds increasing your squat from 200 to 400 pounds at 200 lbs weight. Squatting 2X bw easily compensates for the extra weight you have to move around now.

    Athletes need better relative strength than size. Even then, more is not always better e.g. taking your squat from 400 to 500 may not even improve performance that much. Just depends on the individual.

    This is where speed work comes in. Squatting 400 but really fast may be better than the 500 squat for your performance.

    So the nervous system and muscle relaxation is the focus, since speed is really just how fast your muscles can contract and then relax for the next contraction.
  79. Absolutely. Raw size here is not the goal. For that the cycle/dosages needed to be much higher I guess.
    Recovery - being able to do more work is the goal as well as getting stronger. Also feeling good, ready to attack every day / every training session without being run down from the previous days.
  80. Hope you can resolve the insecurities surrounding your masculinity, sounds like it’s taking a lot of place in your life
  81. Guys @olive @sebastian_r @Mark21 @TheBeard & all others

    I want to include an oral (like I said before) for about 4-6 weeks to my T-P/T-PP cycle. Goal here again is to gain strength (strength to bw ratio), cut a little bit of water / build quality lean muscle, perform better, recover faster

    Now the question is which one to choose: Anavar, Turinabol or Winstrol

    I heard that Winstrol is the strongest one in terms of effects (strength gain, lean muscle mass). Probably also with the harshest side effects. Liver toxicity / dry joints. This could probably be kept under control with lowest effective dosage and taking breaks for 1-2 days after every 3 days of usage like sebastian mentioned.

    I have experimented with Anavar (10-20mg/day) last year for about a month or so (without taking additional T though), didnt feel too much of it. Maybe a little strength gain, looked a little bit leaner (abs more visible). I have heard that to really get the full benefits of Anavar, one must take about 50mg/day alongside T.
    Also with T-bol couple month later. That was about only 10 mg/day alongside EQ, but it was only like 3-4 weeks in total. Got stronger, muscles felt pumped soon after starting exercise, veins visible when training. More of a harder look as well.

    Whats your opinion, which should I include to get the most effect? Mainly I am looking to gain more strength (strength to bw ratio) with the inclusion of the oral.

    Thank you.
  82. Ok. Yaaaasssss. For me, I noticed improving my sensitivity brings equal results with milder compounds, so less side effects.

    Definitely check out westside barbell. Using their methods I add ten pounds a week to my lifts (without gear) and never overtrain- unless I go too heavy on speed work or too much conditioning and too little sleep.
  83. All your statements are garbage and only reflects your emotional bias. Keep it to the science buddy, no one cares about your opinions of me.
  84. Halodrol™
  85. Really? This looks like some prohormone stuff with some nasty added bull**** in it. Probably more side effects than regular AAS.
  86. That nasty bull**** is probably still used by Russian weightlifters today.

    Just throwing it out there as an option. Stronger isn’t always better when your sensitivity is proper.

    No side effects for me. Just lean muscle gains and tons of strength. I recently squatted 545 at 225 lbs bw.
  87. I think you'll find much better answers on a forum dedicated to steroids TBH, but anything non-aromatizing or minimally aromatizing is going to mean less water weight. Less water weight may mean better relative strength at the end of a cycle, but not necessarily. More water weight tends to actually make for a more anabolic environment, which might actually be preferable when we remember that water weight sheds pretty fast following a cycle.

    Maybe worth considering here is the idea that relative strength is dependent on genetic endowment, meaning that at any given stage of muscular development, there is going to be a constant of CNS efficiency that determines the ratio of muscular development to maximal output, all else (like technical skill and training) being equal.

    As I see it, non-aromatizing steroids are useful for getting a boost without soliciting unwanted attention. If sport is the only object, I would consider the heavy hitters like d-bol, anadrol, test. If Est gets to high you can take an AI.
  88. Winstrol is really harsh on the system. Anavar I don't like, especially for a men that is already doing 300mg Test/week.

    Turinabol is a favorite of powerlifters. Can confirm, got great improvements of strength out of it.

    Though take into consideration that orals can sometimes have long detection times, google "Jon Jones Turinabol pulsing". But this is rocket since level testing from USADA.

    Since you already pinning, I don't think you should limit yourself to the orals. You could look into primobolan and doing a frontload to get levels up right from the start (comes in the longer Enanthate ester). Though detection time of the Enanthate ester sucks.

    Alternatively look into nandrolone phenylpropionate for strenght, but do some reading about suppression, heard that nandrolone can make PCT tougher.

    Edit: If you use Winstrol 3-4 days per week you will probably be fine in terms of sides.
  89. Thank you. And I can definitely see your point. Thing is I will compete in a certain weight class, so I can’t bulk up too much. That’s why the idea is to improve performance, rather than pure gains.
  90. Why you don’t like Anavar with Test?

    Yeah, I am aware of the Jon Jones situation. I like T-Bol as well. However, I don’t know about the detection times. People used to take it up to 3-7 days before competition and got tested clean. In 2016 they found a new metabolite which can be detected for a longer time. I can’t find information on it for how long exactly. There was one study where it showed that the M2 metabolite I believe is detectable for at least 2 weeks. My guess would be 3-6 weeks as for the other orals (which is usually 3-8 weeks), but some sources say it can be detacted for up to a year, which is crazy.

    Primobolan I think is good. Expensive though. From what I have read it can only be detected for about 5 weeks. So this could be an option. Would you think it has any performance enhancing qualities? It is considered very mild.

    I will look into NPP. Any ideas on detection times here?
  91. As someone on NPP I can’t attest that it’s strength qualities are subpar compared to even small doses of tbol or anavar. NPP detection times are very long, up to 6 months. It’s also worth mentioning that NPP should never be stacked with testosterone as together it creates a synergistic estrogen and prolactin inducing effect. 10mg dbol/day solo feels stronger than 1400mg NPP/week in my experience.

    Run tbol or anavar. 5mg AM + 5mg PM.
  92. I never noticed any benefit from using anavar or proviron. Winstrol was incredible, the strength, vascular, confidence.
  93. Winstrol is definitely strong. Just harsh on joints in my experience. Also significantly more liver toxic than anavar or tbol. It’s a risk tolerance thing I guess. If OP wants optimal results winstrol would be a better choice over anavar but anavar would be safer.
  94. I tried taking precautions and used liver support. I only used it for 3 weeks and usually took 1-2 days off a week. Usually 30mg daily. Its extremely strong and the effects were noticeable. It seemed to make my jaw/face much defined . I always had a rounder face, i really think i got more looks from women, but i could just be imagining that.

    Interesting about anavar. I didnt feel a difference or could tell any improvement in strength, but my mid cycle bloods showed a very worrisome lipid panel
  95. Lipid enzyme changes on anavar are mechanistic and return to normal very quickly after cessation. 30mg is likely excessive. You would have noticed very similar effects at 10mg/day. The facial changes you noted are simply due to GR/MR inhibition, or more simply water manipulation.
  96. luckily i didnt notice any side effects like joint pain, hair loss etc. i will have to get labs again to make sure everything returned to baseline
  97. Very interesting.
    I had a one month experience with Anavar (10-20mg/day) and didn’t notice a major difference or performance enhancing effect.
    T-bol at 10mg gave me a little more strength/power. Also confidence I think.
    So I will probably either run T-bol again or use Winstrol, starting at 10mg, see how I feel and adjust from there. Sounds like @boxers you had pretty good effects on it!
  98. Yeah i felt so awesome on it, i just wanted to stay on.
  99. Why people would dabble with orals is beyond me.
    Shoot Masteron already
  100. Thats what i will try next time around