Steroid Cycle: Test P + Masteron Questions & Discussion

OP
N

NextLevel_

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Low estrogen leads to hair loss, brittle bones, sore joints, limp ****, no sex drive, emotionless, dry skin, impairs memory formation, impairs growth, etc.

When you take exogenous steroids the body will downregulate and eventually shutdown endogenous T production. Without T the body has no way to create estrogen, so you must take a ‘base’ steroid that converts to estrogen or you’ll run into the problems I listed above. Remember estrogen is also anabolic, studies show T with no estrogen leads to fat gain - T with estrogen leads to muscle growth.

Good point. @Momado965 you should definitely use some Testosterone, or as olive said something that can convert to E as a „base“.
If you use DHT-derivates on its own (in higher dosages, for a longer time) I think you can definitely run into some problems.
Sarms could be an alternative for you. I don’t know much about them and their safety though.
 

Momado965

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Haidut is a very well read man but his knowledge of the endocrine system is flawed. Estrogen is absolutely crucial for muscle growth. As is the AR. GR modulation prevents catabolism but does not induce anabolism. Read a steroid forum for a little while, they hold more knowledge than you’d think.

Estrogen is absolutely not catabolic. Anyone who told you that has a very poor understanding. Estrogen is as anabolic as it gets. It’s a powerful growth stimulator - for good and for bad.

Intertesting.
 

olive

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Interestingly odd. Where can I find those studies of <s>testosterone</s> low estrogen leading to weightgakns?
I finally dug up that study. Low estrogen leads to increased fat gain and worsened sexual function.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1206168
“..estrogen deficiency primarily accounted for increases in body fat; and both contributed to the decline in sexual function. ”

Estrogen is lipolytic, anabolic and increases insulin sensitivity. Low estrogen is linked to hair loss, libido issues, worsened sexual performance, dry skin, depression, memory issues, high blood sugar, etc. Why this forum is obsessed with lowering it beyond the healthy range is beside me.
 

Mark21

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Full saturation means nothing. You are anabolic after the first pin. 8 weeks is plenty effective. Past 6-8 weeks you are fighting a losing battle against myostatin anyway, so the risk:reward ratio is skewed negatively.

Heres what saturation means. Despite running say Test E at a constant dose every week, from week 1, endogenous levels will continue to rise through to 4-6 weeks, at which point they stabilize provided dose is kept constant.

OP is taking Test P, much shorter half-life, so saturation will occur sooner, and this was my bad here, I thought he said test C.. nevertheless this is a pretty well recognized and agreed upon feature of cycling.
 
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Satellite

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Messages
159
I finally dug up that study. Low estrogen leads to increased fat gain and worsened sexual function.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1206168
“..estrogen deficiency primarily accounted for increases in body fat; and both contributed to the decline in sexual function. ”

Estrogen is lipolytic, anabolic and increases insulin sensitivity. Low estrogen is linked to hair loss, libido issues, worsened sexual performance, dry skin, depression, memory issues, high blood sugar, etc. Why this forum is obsessed with lowering it beyond the healthy range is beside me.

Very interesting. I agree that estrogen shouldn’t be tanked. There are some good forms of estrogen. I think estrogen metabolism/detox is often overlooked.

However, I am not sure I would call estrogen anabolic. I do not think anything female is anabolic. The only reason progesterone is “anabolic” is because it blocks estrogen, but too much and it tanks testosterone too, causing enlargement of the breasts.

Sure muscle can be built various ways, but they are not all anabolic. Taking creatine and pumping the muscles until they split will divide the cells and cause growth also, but I wouldn’t say it’s anabolic. This is why creatine causes bloat, similar to estrogen.

Anabolism is more about pure muscle growth without the cell swelling, and burning fat at the same time. As in only taking sugar and aminos and creating new proteins.

This is the preferred method, which is why this forum advocates it. Besides with all the estrogens in the environment, you really should keep it low. You’re already getting flooded by it daily.

At the same time, I believe you are wholly correct that there is an optimal ratio of androgens to estrogen for each person. The ratio is what matters most.

For me, I cannot live without pine pollen. I get far better results from it than anything else even though it’s not very strong. But it contains all four male sex hormones, keeps the endocrine system strong, all while keeping the hormone balance in a healthy ratio.

A plethora of androgens with low/controlled estrogen and cortisol is what keeps me lean and mentally sharp. Oh and plenty of dopamine. Dopamine is a game changer!
 

Satellite

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Jun 22, 2018
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Hi all,

I am a professional athlete, looking to enhance my performance.

The goal is to recover faster, gain strength, better conditioning. So all about better performance.

Muscle gain is not necessarly the goal here, but its a welcoming side effect.

I am aware of steroid use, have a little bit of experience with it in the past and did a great amount of reading/research before I decided to do my first full cycle. Main reason why I have included the propionate ester is because of shorter detection time with drug/doping testing and also because its known to have lesser estrogenic side effects (the testosterone). I will also include the DHT Masteron.

It will look like this:
8-12 weeks in length
3-4 days a week (Mo-Mi-Fr)
100mg Testosterone Propionate
50-100mg Masteron (Drostanolone Propionate)

PCT: Here is where I have questions to you all.
The "standard" protocol is to include
HCG
Tamoxifen (Nolvadex)
Aromasin (Exemestane)

Do you have any suggestions on how to do a "safer" or lesser toxic PCT.

Any tips welcome.

Have you considered taking haiduts calcirol, vitamin k, androsterone, and Metergoline?

That is VERY anabolic for me.

Calcirol keeps my cortisol low. It actually made me more tan without the Sun.

Vitamin K2 is very anabolic for my muscles and bones as it boosts testosterone.

Androsterone will keep estrogen low and turn into DHT.

And Metergoline blocks serotonin which improves bone strength.

The entire combination was very anabolic for my muscles but especially my bones. If you want to get strong then increase bone strength.

I am not joking when I say my lifts all went up like a hundred pounds. It was insane.
 
T

TheBeard

Guest
Not sure this route is better than improving your training routine, but it’s your choice.

Also, I never quite understood why cycles are ever done without OCT. OCT improves the cycle, prevents shutdown, and reduces the stress from the PCT.

For example, I would do:

4 weeks OCT buildup:
Test Booster Combo Pack
You can replace the SDAA with any other test booster that works for you.
Hi -Tech pharma has decent arimistane products also, but Thor’s hammer has other ingredients you’ll need for the liver, kidney, heart etc.

First 4 weeks of cycle:
Continue OCT
Slowly add in test prop

Next 8 weeks (start of full cycle):
Continue OCT (add in letrozole if stronger is needed)
Test prop
Add in masteron

Next 4 weeks:
Continue OCT/letrozole
Reduce test prop
Finish masteron

Next 4-8 weeks:
Continue OCT/PCT
Reduce letrozole but keep arimistane to destroy the estrogen letrozole tied up
Add in any other natural substitutes: pine pollen, tongkat Ali, nettle root, turmeric (rivals tamoxifen in effectiveness), etc. to normalize the body’s hormone levels.

Someone else mentioned keeping blood levels steady, which is a valid point. However, I do not do this and I still make gains, permanent gains. The gains come slower sure, but no side effects and it’s permanent. When I come off completely, I don’t “lose all my gains”.

This is why I suggest improving your training (check out Westside Barbell methods), because I can take a ridiculous cycle and get crazy, but it’ll never last, and I don’t always come out ahead either. Nothing improved my gains like improving my training programming and organization.

Holler.

The only OCT you would need is HCG to keep your balls active, no amount of « test booster » will do jack ***t for your HPTA while it’s receiving a high exogenous T signal.

And also: « letrozole »...? I don’t think you understand the strength of that compound, don’t go around giving bad advice like this, some people might think you are serious.

And all of you @Momado965 and yourself better start reading what @olive says about estrogen, he is spot on.

If you don’t understand the critical importance of estrogen beyond what literature says, it means you haven’t played enough with AIs and crashed your estrogens before.
 
T

TheBeard

Guest
Very interesting. I agree that estrogen shouldn’t be tanked. There are some good forms of estrogen. I think estrogen metabolism/detox is often overlooked.

However, I am not sure I would call estrogen anabolic. I do not think anything female is anabolic. The only reason progesterone is “anabolic” is because it blocks estrogen, but too much and it tanks testosterone too, causing enlargement of the breasts.

Sure muscle can be built various ways, but they are not all anabolic. Taking creatine and pumping the muscles until they split will divide the cells and cause growth also, but I wouldn’t say it’s anabolic. This is why creatine causes bloat, similar to estrogen.

Anabolism is more about pure muscle growth without the cell swelling, and burning fat at the same time. As in only taking sugar and aminos and creating new proteins.

This is the preferred method, which is why this forum advocates it. Besides with all the estrogens in the environment, you really should keep it low. You’re already getting flooded by it daily.

At the same time, I believe you are wholly correct that there is an optimal ratio of androgens to estrogen for each person. The ratio is what matters most.

For me, I cannot live without pine pollen. I get far better results from it than anything else even though it’s not very strong. But it contains all four male sex hormones, keeps the endocrine system strong, all while keeping the hormone balance in a healthy ratio.

A plethora of androgens with low/controlled estrogen and cortisol is what keeps me lean and mentally sharp. Oh and plenty of dopamine. Dopamine is a game changer!

Anabolism: you build the cells the body needs. Eating is anabolic, sleeping is anabolic, androgens are anabolic, estrogens are anabolic.
Catabolism: you break down. Work out is catabolic, chronic stress is catabolic, cortisol is catabolic, fasting is catabolic.

Estrogens build collagen, bones, tissue, hair...and you are telling me they aren’t anabolic?

What’s with «nothing female is anabolic »?

I would try to talk in less clear-cut terms until you get some more book knowledge, failing some real-life knowledge.
 

Satellite

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Jun 22, 2018
Messages
159
The only OCT you would need is HCG to keep your balls active, no amount of « test booster » will do jack ***t for your HPTA while it’s receiving a high exogenous T signal.

And also: « letrozole »...? I don’t think you understand the strength of that compound, don’t go around giving bad advice like this, some people might think you are serious.

And all of you @Momado965 and yourself better start reading what @olive says about estrogen, he is spot on.

If you don’t understand the critical importance of estrogen beyond what literature says, it means you haven’t played enough with AIs and crashed your estrogens before.

I am living proof you are wrong- on all of your statements.

Do what works best for you though.
 

Satellite

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Messages
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Anabolism: you build the cells the body needs. Eating is anabolic, sleeping is anabolic, androgens are anabolic, estrogens are anabolic.
Catabolism: you break down. Work out is catabolic, chronic stress is catabolic, cortisol is catabolic, fasting is catabolic.

Estrogens build collagen, bones, tissue, hair...and you are telling me they aren’t anabolic?

What’s with «nothing female is anabolic »?

I would try to talk in less clear-cut terms until you get some more book knowledge, failing some real-life knowledge.

You are very contradictory. Stress is catabolic, yet estrogen (a stress hormone) is anabolic? That makes sense...

Swelling the cell is not forming new cells from raw materials. Swelling the cell until it splits is catabolic unless you eat enough.

Yes, no female hormones are anabolic. Female hormones increase body fat, water retention, and breast size for giving birth. Hardly anabolic.

Collagen is stress related and not good for you. You can do all the other things you stated without estrogen.

Thanks though, I always enjoy when the emotionally bias present themselves as free thinkers.
 

Satellite

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Jun 22, 2018
Messages
159
The only OCT you would need is HCG to keep your balls active, no amount of « test booster » will do jack ***t for your HPTA while it’s receiving a high exogenous T signal.

And also: « letrozole »...? I don’t think you understand the strength of that compound, don’t go around giving bad advice like this, some people might think you are serious.

And all of you @Momado965 and yourself better start reading what @olive says about estrogen, he is spot on.

If you don’t understand the critical importance of estrogen beyond what literature says, it means you haven’t played enough with AIs and crashed your estrogens before.

HCG?

You really love your female hormones.

So I guess that’s why transgender men take male hormones, so they look like women....
 

Momado965

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Messages
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HCG?

You really love your female hormones.

So I guess that’s why transgender men take male hormones, so they look like women....

Lol wtf dude but its funny though. I know a ton of bodybuilders who take hcg to restore lh and fsh function. The claim is basically lh and fsh to jumpstart T production. However, more or excess lh and fsh correlate negatively with testicular T production.
 
T

TheBeard

Guest
Lol wtf dude but its funny though. I know a ton of bodybuilders who take hcg to restore lh and fsh function. The claim is basically lh and fsh to jumpstart T production. However, more or excess lh and fsh correlate negatively with testicular T production.

HCG doesn’t restore lh and fsh.
HCG mimics lh, suppressing your endogenous lh production.
HMG mimics fsh.

@Satellite you still have a lot of hormone reading to do, would be good if you coupled it to empirical experience.
This is not the place to educate you on the topic, I would advise you scroll the serious AAS forums.
And I mean the serious ones
 
OP
N

NextLevel_

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Messages
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Have you considered taking haiduts calcirol, vitamin k, androsterone, and Metergoline?

That is VERY anabolic for me.

Calcirol keeps my cortisol low. It actually made me more tan without the Sun.

Vitamin K2 is very anabolic for my muscles and bones as it boosts testosterone.

Androsterone will keep estrogen low and turn into DHT.

And Metergoline blocks serotonin which improves bone strength.

The entire combination was very anabolic for my muscles but especially my bones. If you want to get strong then increase bone strength.

I am not joking when I say my lifts all went up like a hundred pounds. It was insane.

Of Course. I was taking androsterone, pansterone, pregnenolone, Vitamins, Supplements (creatine etc.) .. all of that

Nothing gives you the ability to recover as fast, and to train again hard the next day, or even for a second time on the same day than AAS do.

I am not even 2 weeks into the cycle and can already say this.

That being said, I am still taking the Vitamins like D, K2 etc. and Androsterone sometimes.
 
OP
N

NextLevel_

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Apr 5, 2019
Messages
96
Heres what saturation means. Despite running say Test E at a constant dose every week, from week 1, endogenous levels will continue to rise through to 4-6 weeks, at which point they stabilize provided dose is kept constant.

OP is taking Test P, much shorter half-life, so saturation will occur sooner, and this was my bad here, I thought he said test C.. nevertheless this is a pretty well recognized and agreed upon feature of cycling.

Yeah, taking Test PP / Test P. Will do about 10-12 weeks probably. I will add an oral for 4-6 weeks in the next couple of weeks.

So far so good, no side effects so far, no need for AI (Aromasin). Test is at about 300-400mg / week, HCG every 3rd to 4th or so. Proviron added in some days.

Feeling good, gained weight (muscle / water), recovery is faster, gym performance better. Very hungry all the time though haha
 

Satellite

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Jun 22, 2018
Messages
159
Lol wtf dude but its funny though. I know a ton of bodybuilders who take hcg to restore lh and fsh function. The claim is basically lh and fsh to jumpstart T production. However, more or excess lh and fsh correlate negatively with testicular T production.

That shouty poster is bonkers. Too much estrogen in the brain maybe.

The substances I named are ideal for the reason you state. They’re not extreme on the HPTA, so it gets activated just enough - in a masculine way.

Hormones cause expression. Why would you want to express femininity if you are a male athlete?!?! This is insanity.

Bodybuilders use these hacks, because bodybuilding is as unnatural as it gets.

Bodybuilding is hacking.

Athletes are not bodybuilders and should refrain from anything related if they want to maintain athleticism.
 

Satellite

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Jun 22, 2018
Messages
159
HCG doesn’t restore lh and fsh.
HCG mimics lh, suppressing your endogenous lh production.
HMG mimics fsh.

@Satellite you still have a lot of hormone reading to do, would be good if you coupled it to empirical experience.
This is not the place to educate you on the topic, I would advise you scroll the serious AAS forums.
And I mean the serious ones

Oh that sounds perfect...

Kay.
Talking with you is a waste of time.
Try putting down the books and using the brain instead.
 

Satellite

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Joined
Jun 22, 2018
Messages
159
Of Course. I was taking androsterone, pansterone, pregnenolone, Vitamins, Supplements (creatine etc.) .. all of that

Nothing gives you the ability to recover as fast, and to train again hard the next day, or even for a second time on the same day than AAS do.

I am not even 2 weeks into the cycle and can already say this.

That being said, I am still taking the Vitamins like D, K2 etc. and Androsterone sometimes.

Oh ok nice. True about the AAS too. Much of what you said can be attributed to the increased metabolism though.

I am just not sure it is ideal for you. Unless you are a linebacker or sumo wrestler etc. where size is imperative to your sport, I rarely see a time where more size benefits an athlete.

The only time is if that size is accompanied by an equal or greater amount of strength.

For example, you gain twenty pounds increasing your squat from 200 to 400 pounds at 200 lbs weight. Squatting 2X bw easily compensates for the extra weight you have to move around now.

Athletes need better relative strength than size. Even then, more is not always better e.g. taking your squat from 400 to 500 may not even improve performance that much. Just depends on the individual.

This is where speed work comes in. Squatting 400 but really fast may be better than the 500 squat for your performance.

So the nervous system and muscle relaxation is the focus, since speed is really just how fast your muscles can contract and then relax for the next contraction.
 
OP
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NextLevel_

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Messages
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Oh ok nice. True about the AAS too. Much of what you said can be attributed to the increased metabolism though.

I am just not sure it is ideal for you. Unless you are a linebacker or sumo wrestler etc. where size is imperative to your sport, I rarely see a time where more size benefits an athlete.

The only time is if that size is accompanied by an equal or greater amount of strength.

For example, you gain twenty pounds increasing your squat from 200 to 400 pounds at 200 lbs weight. Squatting 2X bw easily compensates for the extra weight you have to move around now.

Athletes need better relative strength than size. Even then, more is not always better e.g. taking your squat from 400 to 500 may not even improve performance that much. Just depends on the individual.

This is where speed work comes in. Squatting 400 but really fast may be better than the 500 squat for your performance.

So the nervous system and muscle relaxation is the focus, since speed is really just how fast your muscles can contract and then relax for the next contraction.

Absolutely. Raw size here is not the goal. For that the cycle/dosages needed to be much higher I guess.
Recovery - being able to do more work is the goal as well as getting stronger. Also feeling good, ready to attack every day / every training session without being run down from the previous days.
 
T

TheBeard

Guest
Hormones cause expression. Why would you want to express femininity if you are a male athlete?!?! This is insanity.

Hope you can resolve the insecurities surrounding your masculinity, sounds like it’s taking a lot of place in your life
 

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