Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumption

narouz

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What exactly does Peat say about how much starch's negative effects
can be ameliorated by long cooking and by simultaneous saturated fat consumption?

I think what I've heard him say is that it reduces the harmful effects.
Rather than eliminating them.
Right?

I guess I should go ahead and include fiber in this question.
Let's think about potatoes.
They've got starch and fiber to contend with.
I believe Peat says cooking for over 40 minutes reduces the negative effects of both.
Is that right?
And then eating a lot of saturated fat at the same time
further mitigates the harmful potential--of both?

I'm trying to understand the potato situation more thoroughly and precisely.
There are two negative things in Peat's view: the starch and the fiber.
Are they both ameliorateable :shock: by both cooking and buttering?

And then too:
To what extent does cooking and buttering "fix," say, a potato?
Does that render the starch grains less capable of "persorption"? Completely incapable?
Does it make them less effective in promoting obesity? Completely ineffective?
Does it make the fibers less capable of providing a growth medium for intestinal bacteria? Completely incapable?

Deep thoughts, I know.
But someone must plumb these Peatian depths!
 

key

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

Ray infered the fiber from potatoes is beneficial in an interview(the positive study people use for recommendations of grain fiber i.e. bran are based on africans eating majority potatoes).

But the starch seems to be inferior to sucrose in basically any situation.
 

narouz

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

key-
I started this thread because of your info about protein content in potato
over in the thread "High Quality Protein."
Surprised me how much there is--much more than I had thought
though I do think the exact amount still needs more careful substantiation.

That makes me want to take a harder look at potatoes.
Heretofore I'd pretty much dismissed them as an ideal Peat food,
just based upon the starch and fiber.

But, with that much protein...
worth looking more closely at just how bad that starch and fiber is,
and to what extent it can be made safe by long cooking and consumption with saturated fat.
Also, the Ray Peat Potato Extract Soup becomes more attactive.
As I said in the other thread,
when I've made it in the past it seemed like a lot of work for little yield.
But, if two big russets (or about a pound) yield approximately as much protein as a quart of milk
(as you report Peat to have said)...
well, that's a lot of high quality protein.

Those numbers still need to be nailed down, at least in my mind.
What Peat says translates into about 28grams of protein per pound of potatoes.
But then you also note that Cron-O-Meter says only 10grams.
This discrepancy could be due to the interpretation of keto acids.
Perhaps Cron-O-Meter doesn't recognize them as proteins (which, I guess, they are not)
but Peat would seem to speak of them (the ketos) as proteins
because they are so easily converted to protein in the body.

My tendency is to think, until proven otherwise, that the cooking and buttering
does not negate the obesity promoting effect of the starch--
which would be rather staggering in 4 big potatoes!
Not to mention the huge amount of butter required in conjunctions.
The cooking and buttering, I'm thinking, just reduce--to some degree--the persorption problem.

That leaves, for me, the Potato Extract as the only feasible healthy way to consume potatoes
as a big part of the diet.
And it may be a lot more feasible than I'd previously thought. :)
 
J

j.

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

narouz said:
Does it make them less effective in promoting obesity? Completely ineffective?

Ray Peat said:
Starch is less harmful when eaten with saturated fat, but it's still more fattening than sugars.

Source
 

narouz

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

j. said:
narouz said:
Does it make them less effective in promoting obesity? Completely ineffective?

Ray Peat said:
Starch is less harmful when eaten with saturated fat, but it's still more fattening than sugars.

Source

Thank you, j.

That seems very close to saying,
"No matter how much you cook it or how much butter you eat with it,
it will still be more fattening and more disposed to intestinal bacteria."
Close, but still not exactly.
 

narouz

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

To say it in another way:
Over in another thread, Peat said recently that
at least 80 grams of protein per day should be a good minimum number.
If 4 russets gave you 56 grams,
that would be a big chunk.
And not very expensive.
It does require some processing if you do the Peat potato extract soup.
But not that bad.
$25 for the juicer.
15-30 minutes to peel and juice the potatoes and clean up the juicer.

But, if two big russets (or about a pound) yield approximately as much protein as a quart of milk
(as you report Peat to have said)...
well, that's a lot of high quality protein.

I wonder if you could really rely upon potatoes for protein.
And, maybe some carbs.
In at least one spot, Peat said potatoes were a good source of carbs.
This surprised me some.
I know he says they have a uniquely high and balanced protein content.
But I would think he would view potatoes as a carohydrate source
as being inferior--to sugars.
 

key

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

^seems better in the long term to just drink milk(or use strategies to build up tolerance to milk like RPPE in the short term)

or if you're vegan you could have potatoes(and RPPE) as main protein
 

narouz

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

key said:
Ray infered the fiber from potatoes is beneficial in an interview(the positive study people use for recommendations of grain fiber i.e. bran are based on africans eating majority potatoes).

But the starch seems to be inferior to sucrose in basically any situation.

That's very interesting!
Do you have any memory as to which interview?

I can't think of a positive think Peat as ever said about fiber,
so...that's why this is intriquing.

Doesn't Peat say that cooking potatoes helps reduce the possible bad effects of the fiber?
I've always been foggy on that.
Maybe he was talking about the starch.
But he seemed to lump them together as I recall--cooking make both at least less potentially harmful

Same with the buttering or coconut oil-ing:
I've never been exactly clear on what that is supposed to ameliorate--
the starch, the fiber, or both?
 

Jenn

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

We lived on homemade french fries almost exclusively for about 6 months, then slowly added back other foods. A potato is not actually all starch, but also contain glucose and fructose too. It is an EXCELLENT source of potassium and minerals and easy to digest, egg quality protein.

Just peel the potato and you remove the only cellulose in the potato.

If you eat what you can digest, vs what you think you need in calories or xyz nutrient, you will not gain weight, just don't forget to chew. ;)
 

narouz

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

Jenn said:
We lived on homemade french fries almost exclusively for about 6 months, then slowly added back other foods. A potato is not actually all starch, but also contain glucose and fructose too. It is an EXCELLENT source of potassium and minerals and easy to digest, egg quality protein.

Just peel the potato and you remove the only cellulose in the potato.

If you eat what you can digest, vs what you think you need in calories or xyz nutrient, you will not gain weight, just don't forget to chew. ;)

The parts of your view on potatoes I'm not sure about are:
1. Is all the fiber of a potato located only in the skin?
2. Is a potato easy to digest--I will stipulate that I mean
after cooking at least 40 minutes as Peat says is necessary
and eating with a lot of butter or other saturated fat--as Peat also says is necessary.
Even after that, I still have the question: Is a potato eaten that way "easy to digest."?
3. While I agree the protein in a potato is of a similarly high level, like that of an egg,
I'm not sure I accept that eating even a properly cooked and buttered potato
is as good as eating an egg--considered from Peat's view and considered in terms of protein goals and overall health impact.
With eggs, you do get some PUFA, more or less depending of what the chicken eats.
So that's a negative.
On the other hand, an egg has a much higher proportion of protein than a potato.
With the potato, there wouldn't be much if any PUFA.
So that's good.
But, unless you made Potato Protein Extract,
you'd also have to take in a lot of starch and fiber
along with that high quality potato protein.

As I say, I've had a bit of a change of heart about potatoes here recently,
as it's been proposed pretty convincingly that potatoes have a lot more protein than I'd previously thought.
And really good protein.
On the other hand: what about all that starch and fiber?
Personally, I can't just sweep them under the rug.
 

Jenn

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

All I can say is you need to eat what works for you. I could not digest an egg initially. It would sit in my stomach for HOURS, so the potato protein I can use vs egg protein I can't is a moot argument for me.

I would eat a half a potato's worth of fries and chew each one until it was completely liquefied in my mouth. I ate until I was satisfied, not physically full. We ate every 2-3 hours.

Keep in mind too, if you only eat an egg, you are creating a need for sugar in order to digest it. A potato with some good fat is balanced and an egg needs to be eaten with something with it, fat to cook it in and a full glass of OJ on the side. Look at the nutritional profile of a glass of milk.....fat, protein, sugar=balance.

Everyone's needs are different in what foods they do better with over others.
 

key

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

narouz said:
That's very interesting!
Do you have any memory as to which interview?

I can't think of a positive think Peat as ever said about fiber,
so...that's why this is intriquing.

Doesn't Peat say that cooking potatoes helps reduce the possible bad effects of the fiber?
I've always been foggy on that.
Maybe he was talking about the starch.
But he seemed to lump them together as I recall--cooking make both at least less potentially harmful

Same with the buttering or coconut oil-ing:
I've never been exactly clear on what that is supposed to ameliorate--
the starch, the fiber, or both?

Ray does think the right fiber(fiber that doesn't feed bacteria) is beneficial since it speeds up bowel transit time decreasing estrogen absorption(which is the carrots main function). He has said high phosphate increases bad bacteria and high calcium increases relatively good bacteria. Which is why he doesn't recommend grain fibers and thinks they are bad.

The cooking and fat ameliorate the starch.
 

Mittir

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

key said:
Ray does think the right fiber(fiber that doesn't feed bacteria) is beneficial since it speeds up bowel transit time decreasing estrogen absorption(which is the carrots main function). He has said high phosphate increases bad bacteria and high calcium increases relatively good bacteria. Which is why he doesn't recommend grain fibers and thinks they are bad.

The cooking and fat ameliorate the starch.

Can you please give me the source where Ray Peat stated that high phosphate increases bad bacteria. Thanks
 

narouz

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

key said:
narouz said:
That's very interesting!
Do you have any memory as to which interview?

I can't think of a positive think Peat as ever said about fiber,
so...that's why this is intriquing.

Doesn't Peat say that cooking potatoes helps reduce the possible bad effects of the fiber?
I've always been foggy on that.
Maybe he was talking about the starch.
But he seemed to lump them together as I recall--cooking make both at least less potentially harmful

Same with the buttering or coconut oil-ing:
I've never been exactly clear on what that is supposed to ameliorate--
the starch, the fiber, or both?

Ray does think the right fiber(fiber that doesn't feed bacteria) is beneficial since it speeds up bowel transit time decreasing estrogen absorption(which is the carrots main function). He has said high phosphate increases bad bacteria and high calcium increases relatively good bacteria. Which is why he doesn't recommend grain fibers and thinks they are bad.

The cooking and fat ameliorate the starch.

key-
Thanks.
You've answered a couple of things about Peat's views on starch and fiber that've long puzzled me.
You say that Peat says:
1. some fiber is beneficial
2. the buttering and long-cooking are ameliorative tactics which apply to starch, not fiber.

Now...I'm not doubting you,
but it's just that you say Peat says that.
It would be more conclusive to me if we could cite some primary sources.
Do you have any memory of where Peat said that.

I think this is an area of some mystery in PeatLand
and it would be great if we could get some more substantiation--
especially on this fiber point.
Your view, key, of what Peat thinks on fiber
does surprise me some.
As I said, I just haven't seen any clear theme of Peat recommending fiber.
In fact, the stuff I've seen from him has seemed to me to run in the opposite direction:
fiber is bad. You know: strain your orange juice;
if you must eat rice, eat white rice to avoid that fiber, etc.

Maybe we need a thread on fiber.
 

key

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

Mittir said:
key said:
Ray does think the right fiber(fiber that doesn't feed bacteria) is beneficial since it speeds up bowel transit time decreasing estrogen absorption(which is the carrots main function). He has said high phosphate increases bad bacteria and high calcium increases relatively good bacteria. Which is why he doesn't recommend grain fibers and thinks they are bad.

The cooking and fat ameliorate the starch.

Can you please give me the source where Ray Peat stated that high phosphate increases bad bacteria. Thanks

I'm pretty sure it is in an East West interview, maybe the one of about milk.
 

key

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

narouz said:
key said:
narouz said:
That's very interesting!
Do you have any memory as to which interview?

I can't think of a positive think Peat as ever said about fiber,
so...that's why this is intriquing.

Doesn't Peat say that cooking potatoes helps reduce the possible bad effects of the fiber?
I've always been foggy on that.
Maybe he was talking about the starch.
But he seemed to lump them together as I recall--cooking make both at least less potentially harmful

Same with the buttering or coconut oil-ing:
I've never been exactly clear on what that is supposed to ameliorate--
the starch, the fiber, or both?

Ray does think the right fiber(fiber that doesn't feed bacteria) is beneficial since it speeds up bowel transit time decreasing estrogen absorption(which is the carrots main function). He has said high phosphate increases bad bacteria and high calcium increases relatively good bacteria. Which is why he doesn't recommend grain fibers and thinks they are bad.

The cooking and fat ameliorate the starch.

key-
Thanks.
You've answered a couple of things about Peat's views on starch and fiber that've long puzzled me.
You say that Peat says:
1. some fiber is beneficial
2. the buttering and long-cooking are ameliorative tactics which apply to starch, not fiber.

Now...I'm not doubting you,
but it's just that you say Peat says that.
It would be more conclusive to me if we could cite some primary sources.
Do you have any memory of where Peat said that.

I think this is an area of some mystery in PeatLand
and it would be great if we could get some more substantiation--
especially on this fiber point.
Your view, key, of what Peat thinks on fiber
does surprise me some.
As I said, I just haven't seen any clear theme of Peat recommending fiber.
In fact, the stuff I've seen from him has seemed to me to run in the opposite direction:
fiber is bad. You know: strain your orange juice;
if you must eat rice, eat white rice to avoid that fiber, etc.

Maybe we need a thread on fiber.

He talks about it in a East West interview. I think it is the one where he mentions the raw carrot salad. Listen to all the interviews here and your understanding of Peat will increase greatly. http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2011/09/12/master-list-ray-peat-phd-interviews/
 

biggirlkisss

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

I struggle to disgust vegetables so I eliminated them from my diet. I mean to say that I took out root vegetables. Fruits are superior anyways. Only if temp/pulse shows you do good with root veggies should you keep eating them.
 

jaguar43

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Re: Starch's Evil: Amelioration by Cooking and Fat Consumpti

Not sure how many people know this

When I juiced a potato the fiber left started to turn purple. When I observed the fiber their was a very strong mint-like smell. Like almost toothpaste. When I cooked the juiced it turned to a very colloidal substance.

Any way I guess what I am trying to say is the potato is a very interesting.

Are you seeing weight gain, or bloating ?
 
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