Starch weight gain?

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I've noticed I've gained 15-20 lbs since incorporating potatoes with coconut oil into my diet daily. Have you guys experienced weight gain on starch as well? Or is it a product of just including more fat in the diet?
 

Pina

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When I dropped the starch, rice and potatoes, I stopped gaining weight. Then I started eating dried fruits and the weight returned. I've noticed this is mostly fluid retention.

“Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. eating “complex carbohydrates,” rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat" –Dr Ray Peat
 

perceivethinkac

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When I dropped the starch, rice and potatoes, I stopped gaining weight. Then I started eating dried fruits and the weight returned. I've noticed this is mostly fluid retention.

“Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat. eating “complex carbohydrates,” rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat" –Dr Ray Peat
Why do you think that you gained weight back with the dried fruit?
 

Pina

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Why do you think that you gained weight back with the dried fruit?
I'm not sure. It could be excess calories. I think if you are active this shouldn't be an issue.
 
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Hans

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I've noticed I've gained 15-20 lbs since incorporating potatoes with coconut oil into my diet daily. Have you guys experienced weight gain on starch as well? Or is it a product of just including more fat in the diet?
Do you count calories? It's very easy to eat too many calories, especially if the starches are coated with fat as well.
 

Mr.Bollox

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Do you count calories? It's very easy to eat too many calories, especially if the starches are coated with fat as well.
do calories matter even if theyre protein calories? and sugar calories?

I'm not sure. It could be excess calories. I think if you are active this shouldn't be an issue.
which dried fruits, was it starchy fruits like bananna, mango
 

zwez

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I've noticed I've gained 15-20 lbs since incorporating potatoes with coconut oil into my diet daily. Have you guys experienced weight gain on starch as well? Or is it a product of just including more fat in the diet?
Potatoes are one of the most insulinogenic carbohydrate sources. If you’re concerned about weight gain then you want to minimize your insulin secretion. Pasta is a much better choice.

 

Mr.Bollox

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Potatoes are one of the most insulinogenic carbohydrate sources. If you’re concerned about weight gain then you want to minimize your insulin secretion. Pasta is a much better choice.

good to know mate I thought they would have been superior to pasta, white bread or white rice due to the fiber and nutrients...
is glycemic index still relevant if the foods are consumed alongside fats and proteins?
I remember hearing that it becomes irrelevant, but it was bodybuilding/fitness people saying that
im curious where milk and honey would be on that list, also how are doughnuts and white pasta so low on the list?

why are oranges/apples so low compared to banannas/grapes, are banannas/grapes mostly glucose with little fructose
 

Hans

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Potatoes are one of the most insulinogenic carbohydrate sources. If you’re concerned about weight gain then you want to minimize your insulin secretion. Pasta is a much better choice.
It's not as simple as limiting insulin to lose fat or prevent fat gains. Studies show that there is no difference in weight gain or fat loss between low gi or high gi groups. Potatoes also have the highest satiety index so it's very difficult to overeat on them. Especially if you don't add salt or fat to it.
 

Hans

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do calories matter even if theyre protein calories
Yes but to a lesser extent. Let's say you eat 2500 calories. And then you add only protein to 3500 calories from whey, gelatin or some kind of protein powder, you won't gain fat. If the protein is from food sources, you'll always get extra fat and that can make you fat.

and sugar calories?
Yes sugar counts for sure. Only in some animal models can they consume lots of (in a surplus) sugar and honey or fruit and not gain weight.
 

zwez

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good to know mate I thought they would have been superior to pasta, white bread or white rice due to the fiber and nutrients...
is glycemic index still relevant if the foods are consumed alongside fats and proteins?
I remember hearing that it becomes irrelevant, but it was bodybuilding/fitness people saying that
im curious where milk and honey would be on that list, also how are doughnuts and white pasta so low on the list?

why are oranges/apples so low compared to banannas/grapes, are banannas/grapes mostly glucose with little fructose
I believe that the insulin index is primarily a function of the structure of the food, which is called the food matrix, and its interaction with the cells of the intestine. For example, plain mashed potatoes cause more insulin to be released than plain baked potatoes.

This is a good video on the subject.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rcfvRGZsDs
 

Mr.Bollox

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I believe that the insulin index is primarily a function of the structure of the food, which is called the food matrix, and its interaction with the cells of the intestine. For example, plain mashed potatoes cause more insulin to be released than plain baked potatoes.

This is a good video on the subject.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rcfvRGZsDs


how are donuts and white pasta so low in the index, is it due to some fats or proteins contained in those foods or something?
also why are banannas/grapes so much higher than oranges/apples
do you have thoughts on where honey, whey protein, and skim milk would be on this list and their index number
i heard whey is very insulogenic, like above 100 possibly...
so should we be favoring skim milk powder (80% casein, 20% whey) over pure whey powders due to wheys insulogenic effects
 

76er

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Yes sugar counts for sure. Only in some animal models can they consume lots of (in a surplus) sugar and honey or fruit and not gain weight.

I get it. You can't just go bonkers on sugar.

Like you referenced in one of your recent articles it's safe (from gaining weight) for the average person to hit near 600 grams of carbs (even if all from sugar).

" Studies show that carb oxidation equals carb intake. No matter if it’s 200g or 600g per day. And this is because there is limited storage space for carbs. The body burns it rather than converting it." – How to lose fat safely while Peating » MENELITE

That can be a decent amount of calories (and kinda of a "bonkers-lite").

Personally, I've noticed if I go over my calorie baseline with carbs from sugar it has no effect on weight gain.

I'll gain weight when I regularly go over 30% of my calories from fat. That's one of the most important chronometer stats for me.

An ideal calorie percentage breakdown day for me is 50% carbs (80%-90% from sugar sources) | 25% fat | 25% protein.

I can gain muscle (slowly) and lose fat (slowly) doing those percentages consistently (and hitting almost all micros).
 

Hans

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I get it. You can't just go bonkers on sugar.

Like you referenced in one of your recent articles it's safe (from gaining weight) for the average person to hit near 600 grams of carbs (even if all from sugar).



That can be a decent amount of calories (and kinda of a "bonkers-lite").

Personally, I've noticed if I go over my calorie baseline with carbs from sugar it has no effect on weight gain.

I'll gain weight when I regularly go over 30% of my calories from fat. That's one of the most important chronometer stats for me.

An ideal calorie percentage breakdown day for me is 50% carbs (80%-90% from sugar sources) | 25% fat | 25% protein.

I can gain muscle (slowly) and lose fat (slowly) doing those percentages consistently (and hitting almost all micros).
When in a surplus, protein will not result in weight gain. If the surplus is created by carbs, then some fat gain will occur, most often more so with starches than sugar. If the surplus is created by fat, more fat is gained compared to carbs.
The thing I noticed with creating a surplus with carbs is that the weight gain is slow. A couple of weeks go by and your abs are still visible. After a couple of months, you're like, hmmm my abs still show, but I'm sure they were crisper a while ago. And so it goes.
It's hard to point a finger at a certain macro if someone is eating intuitively. Some days they're more active, others they don't have a big appetite, etc., but at the end of the week, it still comes down to how much they ate and how active they were. Hormones do play a role ofc, but calories do play a bigger role if someone is somewhat healthy.
 

76er

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When in a surplus, protein will not result in weight gain. If the surplus is created by carbs, then some fat gain will occur, most often more so with starches than sugar. If the surplus is created by fat, more fat is gained compared to carbs.
The thing I noticed with creating a surplus with carbs is that the weight gain is slow. A couple of weeks go by and your abs are still visible. After a couple of months, you're like, hmmm my abs still show, but I'm sure they were crisper a while ago. And so it goes.
It's hard to point a finger at a certain macro if someone is eating intuitively. Some days they're more active, others they don't have a big appetite, etc., but at the end of the week, it still comes down to how much they ate and how active they were. Hormones do play a role ofc, but calories do play a bigger role if someone is somewhat healthy.
Sounds good.

I should add that I don't regularly go into a calorie surplus via sugar/carbs and when I do it is usually
because I'm playing a sport and then drinking a ton of fruit juice so there is the activity canceling
effect like you mention.

So I guess I don't really have any great personal anecdotes around sugar calorie surpluses and gaining
weight. It's really limiting the fats that I concentrate on I guess.

I do just eat sugar based foods, drinks, and sweeteners liberally but I still usually only get to ~350g
on a non-active day. My kcal baseline is ~3,250 – ~3,500.

I'm cutting/re-comping right now so I shoot for ~2,800 – ~3K.
 

zwez

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It's not as simple as limiting insulin to lose fat or prevent fat gains. Studies show that there is no difference in weight gain or fat loss between low gi or high gi groups. Potatoes also have the highest satiety index so it's very difficult to overeat on them. Especially if you don't add salt or fat to it.
I find potatoes to be unappetizing, yes, but not satiating. And GI is only one of the factors that influences insulin release.

how are donuts and white pasta so low in the index, is it due to some fats or proteins contained in those foods or something?
also why are banannas/grapes so much higher than oranges/apples
do you have thoughts on where honey, whey protein, and skim milk would be on this list and their index number
i heard whey is very insulogenic, like above 100 possibly...
so should we be favoring skim milk powder (80% casein, 20% whey) over pure whey powders due to wheys insulogenic effects
It’s due to the physical structure of the foods. Apples have more structure than bananas. With respect to whey protein, it’s almost universally true that drinking your calories is more insulinogenic than eating them. Watch the YouTube video I posted.
 

Hans

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I find potatoes to be unappetizing, yes, but not satiating. And GI is only one of the factors that influences insulin release.
I recommend you check out the work of James Krieger. He has been debunking the insulin hypothesis of obesity for over 15 years now.
 

zwez

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I recommend you check out the work of James Krieger. He has been debunking the insulin hypothesis of obesity for over 15 years now.
The insulin hypothesis has definitively not been debunked. Here’s a recent study illustrating the importance of insulin in the ratio of fat to lean mass loss in a caloric deficit.

Stimulated Insulin Secretion Predicts Changes in Body Composition Following Weight Loss in Adults with High BMI
In FB4, higher insulin-30 was associated with a smaller decrease in fat mass (0.441 kg per 100 μIU/mL increment in baseline insulin-30; P = 0.005; –1.20-kg mean difference between the first compared with the fifth group of insulin-30) and a larger decrease in lean mass (–0.465 kg per 100 μIU/mL; P = 0.004; 1.27-kg difference). Participants with higher insulin-30 lost a smaller proportion of weight loss as fat (–3.37% per 100 μIU/mL; P = 0.003; 9.20% difference). Greater HOMA-IR was also significantly associated with adverse body composition changes. Results from (FS)2 were qualitatively similar but of a smaller magnitude.
 
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I've noticed I've gained 15-20 lbs since incorporating potatoes with coconut oil into my diet daily. Have you guys experienced weight gain on starch as well? Or is it a product of just including more fat in the diet?

“If you take orange juice with some fat it will be more stabilizing to your blood sugar than the grits and potatoes. Starches increase the stress hormones, interfering with progesterone and thyroid.” -Ray Peat
 
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I've noticed I've gained 15-20 lbs since incorporating potatoes with coconut oil into my diet daily. Have you guys experienced weight gain on starch as well? Or is it a product of just including more fat in the diet?

"When starch is well cooked, and eaten with some fat and the essential nutrients, it's safe, except that it's more likely than sugar to produce fat, and isn't as efficient for mineral balance. -Ray Peat
 
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