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Starch - The Delicious Devil

Rinse & rePeat

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"A diet that provides enough calcium to limit activity of the parathyroid glands, and that is low in phosphate and polyunsaturated fats, with sugar rather than starch as the main carbohydrate, possibly supplemented by niacinamide and aspirin, should help to avoid some of the degenerative processes associated with high phosphate: fatigue, heart failure, movement discoordination, hypogonadism, infertility, vascular calcification, emphysema, cancer, osteoporosis, and atrophy of skin, skeletal muscle, intestine, thymus, and spleen (Ohnishi and Razzaque, 2010; Shiraki-Iida, et al., 2000; Kuro-o, et al., 1997; Osuka and Razzaque, 2012). "
-Ray Peat
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Apr 25, 2016

Jayfish e-mail

Question: do you believe a fiber free diet is possible in context of gut health and transit time for elimination.

"I’ve had a fiber-free diet for many years."

This is an interesting response and I might ask if he could elaborate at all. I think we are all under the impression that RP eats some amounts of fiber, carrots, mushrooms, turnips, fruit, etc. I'm wondering now if these are more recommendations but not necessarily what he actually eats.
 

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"Industrially processed grains have most of the nutrients, such as vitamin E, the B vitamins, manganese, magnesium, etc., removed to improve the products' shelf life and efficiency of processing, and the government required that certain nutrients be added to them as a measure to protect the public's health, but the supplementation did not reflect the best science even when it was first made law, since food industry lobbyists managed to impose compromises that led to the use of the cheapest chemicals, rather than those that offered the greatest health benefits. For example, studies of processed animal food had demonstrated that the addition of iron (as the highly reactive form, ferrous sulfate, which happens to be cheap and easy to handle) created disease in animals, by destroying vitamins in the food. You should read the label of ingredients and avoid products that contain added iron, when possible." -Ray Peat
 

Rinse & rePeat

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"The large bowel in humans is described as a complex ecosystem, containing a large number of microbial species [58]. Although the composition of the colonic microbiota in adults is relatively stable, its concentration, however, can be manipulated by dietary means. For example, it has been reported that a high intake of carbohydrate, particularly oligosaccharides, can stimulate the growth of Bifidobacterium spp., Klebsiella spp., Clostridium spp., and Escherichia coli in the human colon [59].

Starches are one of the major carbohydrates available in the human colon. A considerable part of the consumed starchy food escapes digestion in the human small intestine and directly enters the large bowel. These starches that are not degraded in the small intestine and referred to as resistant starch can be used as substrate for bacterial fermentation [60].

It has been shown that up to 20% of the total starch materials consumed by normal individuals fail the absorption process when assessed by oral hydrogen excretion studies [61]. These starch materials are basically present in potatoes and wheat flour products such as pasta and bread (as shown in the lists below).

Recommended Diet for Crohn’s Disease and Ankylosing Spondylitis Patients

Decreased Intake of “High-Starch-Containing Foods”
(i)Flour and related products: breads, biscuits, cakes, puddings, pies, and popcorn.
(ii)Pasta products: macaronis, noodles, spaghetti, pizzas, and pastry.
(iii)Rice varieties: brown or white, boiled, fried, or in puddings.
(iv)Potatoes: baked, boiled, fried, roasted, or mashed potatoes."

 

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"It is concluded that Klebsiella has a pivotal role in the aetiopathogenesis of CD, as evidenced by enhanced anti-Klebsiella immune responses and significant cross-reactivity and cytotoxic reactions. Low-starch diet could help in the eradication of Klebsiella in the bowel and, hence, decreasing the disease activity and progress with eventual halt or regression of the pathological process in patients with CD and AS."

 

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"When grains are sprouted they are converted into a raw, living food with more vital nutrients which are more readily absorbed by the body. Sprouted flours are digested by the body as a vegetable not as a starch. When grains are sprouted, enzymes are created that aid digestion."

 

Nimo

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Hello @Rinse & rePeat . im new here
May i ask, u sad u dont do juice or fruit with your meat, only with dairy. What carbs do you eat with your meat and how often do you do that per day?
Do u use juices or some sweetened teas between meals to spare your carbs during whole day and to avoid eating alot fructose per one serving?
what if some one have FODMAP problem but do well with starch like basmati rice ?
And what be good tactic for someone with alergy on Casein? no way to have higher calcium to phosphorus ratio.
 
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Rinse & rePeat

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Hello @Rinse & rePeat . im new here
May i ask, u sad u dont do juice or fruit with your meat, only with dairy. What carbs do you eat with your meat and how often do you do that per day?
Do u use juices or some sweetened teas between meals to spare your carbs during whole day and to avoid eating alot fructose per one serving?
what if some one have FODMAP problem but do well with starch like basmati rice ?
And what be good tactic for someone with alergy on Casein? no way to have higher calcium to phosphorus ratio.

Hi Nimo! Boy you do have a challenge. I have a thread called "More Weight Loss Talk" where I have documented my days food, but without milk your days would be much different. I know when I went several years without dairy my teeth suffered, becoming transparent, and I dealt with kidney, gall bladder and pancreatic stones, and I supplemented calcium, so you gotta get your calcium up without suppliments. Fresh orange juice and WELL cooked brocolli would be my best choices. I know well cooked broccoli isn't anti-Peat, but it does shut off the thyroid for a short time, but having stones is a worse choice. I would up those two foods if I couldn't have dairy. Canned sardines have a while lot of calcium if you can find them from tropical waters packed in water. I have recently fried some in refined coconut oil to keep from storing their PUFA's.

I am heavy into dairy nowadays so I sip on raw skimmed milk all day and eat lots of raw honey for snacks. I like to make a gelatin tea with raw honey and fresh mint or orange peel between meals too. I just dissolve a couple of scoops of gelatin in boiling water, add in sugar or honey and stir until it dissolves and add in a sprig of fresh mint or boiled tge water with fresh orange peel. I might snack on a few macadamia nuts with that since it is nonfat. I have been dabbling this week with fresh pressed heirloom apple and purple rainbow carrot juice this week and pairing it. With gently fried egg yolks in butter.

As for your starch question. I highly recommend switching to SPROUTED rice or oats. They aren't empty carbs and they are void of so much starch compareed to the lazy grains. They are considered, by Ray Peat as well, to be more of a vegetable. This is how ancient cultures ate their starches. Sprouted is so much easier to digest too, getting "in and out" quick, if you know what I mean, which keeps bad bacteria in the gut from fermenting. Sprouted grains don't have anti-nutrients either so your teeth and bones wont suffer. Try a bowl of sprouted short grain rice (my favorite) with some butter and rice and see if you aren't hooked! I hope I answered some of your questions and am happy to be more detailed with any others :)

 

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Nimo

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Hi Nimo! Boy you do have a challenge. I have a thread called "More Weight Loss Talk" where I have documented my days food, but without milk your days would be much different. I know when I went several years without dairy my teeth suffered, becoming transparent, and I dealt with kidney, gall bladder and pancreatic stones, and I supplemented calcium, so you gotta get your calcium up without suppliments. Fresh orange juice and WELL cooked brocolli would be my best choices. I know well cooked broccoli isn't anti-Peat, but it does shut off the thyroid for a short time, but having stones is a worse choice. I would up those two foods if I couldn't have dairy. Canned sardines have a while lot of calcium if you can find them from tropical waters packed in water. I have recently fried some in refined coconut oil to keep from storing their PUFA's.

I am heavy into dairy nowadays so I sip on raw skimmed milk all day and eat lots of raw honey for snacks. I like to make a gelatin tea with raw honey and fresh mint or orange peel between meals too. I just dissolve a couple of scoops of gelatin in boiling water, add in sugar or honey and stir until it dissolves and add in a sprig of fresh mint or boiled tge water with fresh orange peel. I might snack on a few macadamia nuts with that since it is nonfat. I have been dabbling this week with fresh pressed heirloom apple and purple rainbow carrot juice this week and pairing it. With gently fried egg yolks in butter.

As for your starch question. I highly recommend switching to SPROUTED rice or oats. They aren't empty carbs and they are void of so much starch compareed to the lazy grains. They are considered, by Ray Peat as well, to be more of a vegetable. This is how ancient cultures ate their starches. Sprouted is so much easier to digest too, getting "in and out" quick, if you know what I mean, which keeps bad bacteria in the gut from fermenting. Sprouted grains don't have anti-nutrients either so your teeth and bones wont suffer. Try a bowl of sprouted short grain rice (my favorite) with some butter and rice and see if you aren't hooked! I hope I answered some of your questions and am happy to be more detailed with any others :)

So if i undearstand good.
u was years without Dairy and milk and this makes kidney a liver stones EVEN with calcium supplement so u think calcium supplement is not same as calcium from food?
u meantion orange juice and broccoli to prevent those stones if someone dont have calcium from food? how can OJ and brocoli prevent this?
what calcium supplement did u used?
do you know any post or where i can learn how to sprout rice or oats ?
on your diet, like low fiber diet for some people, what would be your recomendation? i have familial hypercholesterol and i need to have little bit more fiber in my diet, or do you have any advice how to lower LDL if thyroid is ok ?
 
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Rinse & rePeat

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So if i undearstand good.
u was years without Dairy and milk and this makes kidney a liver stones EVEN with calcium supplement so u think calcium supplement is not same as calcium from food?
u meantion orange juice and broccoli to prevent those stones if someone dont have calcium from food? how can OJ and brocoli prevent this?
what calcium supplement did u used?
do you know any post or where i can learn how to sprout rice or oats ?
on your diet, like low fiber diet for some people, what would be your recomendation? i have familial hypercholesterol and i need to have little bit more fiber in my diet, or do you have any advice how to lower LDL if thyroid is ok ?

It has been so long since I took a calcium suppliment, but it looked like this bottle.


I have never sprouted grains myself. I am currently buying these sprouted products, I attached pics of.


I don't know much on cholesterol. I have just found suppliments to be a aet back in my health. They tend to solve one problem, but create another. So yes I think calcium suppliments are not the same as food. I have heard Ray Peat talk about eggshell calcium being preferred to others.
 

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Nimo

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It has been so long since I took a calcium suppliment, but it looked like this bottle.


I have never sprouted grains myself. I am currently buying these sprouted products, I attached pics of.


I don't know much on cholesterol. I have just found suppliments to be a aet back in my health. They tend to solve one problem, but create another. So yes I think calcium suppliments are not the same as food. I have heard Ray Peat talk about eggshell calcium being preferred to others.
and how did u cure your stones? i have oxalate stones in kidney and i think oxalate cristals on my joints because i feel it. no join pain but discomfort.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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and how did u cure your stones? i have oxalate stones in kidney and i think oxalate cristals on my joints because i feel it. no join pain but discomfort.

I cut out high oxalate foods like spinach and other greens, sweet potatoes and beans and started eating cheese and milk. I never had any joint pain either.
 

Nimo

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I cut out high oxalate foods like spinach and other greens, sweet potatoes and beans and started eating cheese and milk. I never had any joint pain either.
and when stones goes out of you, you felt it?
do you think A1 casein is inflamatory? do you have any studies that saying A1 is good too but it depens on person digestion?
did you drank OJ as it is high in citric acid whitch can help heal stones?
did u used any supplements?
 

Dutchie

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and when stones goes out of you, you felt it?
do you think A1 casein is inflamatory? do you have any studies that saying A1 is good too but it depens on person digestion?
did you drank OJ as it is high in citric acid whitch can help heal stones?
did u used any supplements?
Obviously I'm not Rinse, nor mean to hijack the conversation, but seeing your comment it feels like you might be mixing things up.

When you speak of: stones coming out and citric acid dissolving stones. Do you mean gallstones?
(bc oxalates are different, they're more like crystals and vitamin C/citric acid can actually worsen things. It can stimulate endogenous production.)
 

Rinse & rePeat

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and when stones goes out of you, you felt it?
do you think A1 casein is inflamatory? do you have any studies that saying A1 is good too but it depens on person digestion?
did you drank OJ as it is high in citric acid whitch can help heal stones?
did u used any supplements?

Oh yeah I felt every stone go out of me. I had 2 in the pancreas, one in my gall bladder and one in my kidney, which I think that one tore my kidney, because I bled after that one and my kidney hurt for many months after. At the time I was getting the stones I had cut out oranges, because the blood type diet said that oranges are not good for 0 blood types, milk either. I had already accumulated the stones though by the time I cut them out. I had already cut most drinking milk out years before the cutting out the oranges. I occasionally had mozzarella, but I was eating alot of beans, oats and spinach during that period of having stones and supplimenting calcium for many many years. After the gall bladder attack and a hospital visit with a sonogram, the doctor urged me to have my gall bladder removed, I did a lot of research, and discovered that removing my gall bladder was not a remedy. Removing a gall bladder only makes you store stones in other organs. Though there is opposite opinions whether to cut out dairy or add dairy, I believed the latter because it matched my getting stones after cutting out dairy. Since ditching the calcium suppliments and adding back in dairy I have never had another stone and it has been about 7 years now.
 

Nimo

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Obviously I'm not Rinse, nor mean to hijack the conversation, but seeing your comment it feels like you might be mixing things up.

When you speak of: stones coming out and citric acid dissolving stones. Do you mean gallstones?
(bc oxalates are different, they're more like crystals and vitamin C/citric acid can actually worsen things. It can stimulate endogenous production.)
y vitamin C produce some oxalates but mostly in high dosages, not from orange juice. citrates help increase PH so alkalize the urine and so they are good with kidney oxalate stones. this is why some recomend potassium or calcium citrate to boost citrate too.
 

Nimo

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Oh yeah I felt every stone go out of me. I had 2 in the pancreas, one in my gall bladder and one in my kidney, which I think that one tore my kidney, because I bled after that one and my kidney hurt for many months after. At the time I was getting the stones I had cut out oranges, because the blood type diet said that oranges are not good for 0 blood types, milk either. I had already accumulated the stones though by the time I cut them out. I had already cut most drinking milk out years before the cutting out the oranges. I occasionally had mozzarella, but I was eating alot of beans, oats and spinach during that period of having stones and supplimenting calcium for many many years. After the gall bladder attack and a hospital visit with a sonogram, the doctor urged me to have my gall bladder removed, I did a lot of research, and discovered that removing my gall bladder was not a remedy. Removing a gall bladder only makes you store stones in other organs. Though there is opposite opinions whether to cut out dairy or add dairy, I believed the latter because it matched my getting stones after cutting out dairy. Since ditching the calcium suppliments and adding back in dairy I have never had another stone and it has been about 7 years now.
and this tipe of diet, no dairy no oranges lead you to stones, but now u eat dairy, drink milk and drink OJ and u are stone less?
But i dont undearstand, maybe because my bad english, what diet u used to remove those stones from your body? just as u sad low oxalate, high dairy and milk ? did u drank orange juice too or eat fruits low on oxalates?
 

Dutchie

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y vitamin C produce some oxalates but mostly in high dosages, not from orange juice. citrates help increase PH so alkalize the urine and so they are good with kidney oxalate stones. this is why some recomend potassium or calcium citrate to boost citrate too.
In the oxalates FB group they advised people sensitive to oxalates to not go over 350mg of vit.c daily, through food and/or supplements.

Besides vit.c, oranges also contain a modest amount of oxalates.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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and this tipe of diet, no dairy no oranges lead you to stones, but now u eat dairy, drink milk and drink OJ and u are stone less?
But i dont undearstand, maybe because my bad english, what diet u used to remove those stones from your body? just as u sad low oxalate, high dairy and milk ? did u drank orange juice too or eat fruits low on oxalates?

The calcium suppliments i was taking and lack of dairy calcium caused me stones, high oxalates too. I now drinks lots of milk and maybe have a glass of orange juice. I ditched the beans and vegetables too. I don't know if I removed any stones, hopefully I have dissolved whatever I might have had, but I haven't had any attacks trying to pass them.
 
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