Starch - The Delicious Devil

OP
Rinse & rePeat
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,494
Why does starch taste so good? Why does it taste especially good with pufa and muscle meats?

I don't think that starch tastes good at all without help of some sort. Toast up a piece of bread and without the butter it is awful.
 

Eberhardt

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
607
I don't think that starch tastes good at all without help of some sort. Toast up a piece of bread and without the butter it is awful.
To be fair not that many things does maybe even more so with starches though thats true. But on the other hand porridge can be tasty enough :) (even if I dont eat it)
 

Eberhardt

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
607
Starch can be neutralized .
I usually bake my potato at high temperature...it is a completely different food compared to boiled potato

Dextrinization is the ultimate starch blocker
Adano Ley (Swami Nitty-Gritty) said, “Dextrinization is the ultimate starch blocker. When baked potato starch is dextrinized, the intestinal flora can convert the starch into a protein.”
Dextrinization converts starches into dextrose, also known as glucose – “brain sugar.”
According to Adano, all foods that are not eaten raw should be dextrinized at 180-200 degrees – an ancient Essene technique – for at least 20 minutes.
Most foods OTHER THAN GRAINS can be dextrinized for extended periods of time – the longer the better.
Adano cautioned, “A microwave oven cooks from the inside out. Food needs to be cooked from the outside in to dextrinize it. You can warm food in a microwave after it’s already dextrinized.”
Besides converting complicated starches into optically active dextrorotatary glucose, dextrinization neutralizes NITRATES and OXALATES.


I dont want to discard this argument. On the other hand it is not as clear as it sounds from the quotes which are largely inflated and misleading as well as sometimes patently false. There are many types of dextrinization both wet and dry and grains dextrinize just fine, though they wet dextrinize instead usually. Bread crust and toast is dextrinized though as examples. I am not sure what to make of it though - to be honest the times I've ingested maltodextrin I've felt really good and dextrins are used in iv infusions and for diabetics to raise blood sugar. It has a very high glycemic index but I am not sure if that is so much a problem in real life - espeically if not in the precense of elvated free fatty acids/pufas. I can see that dextrinization is very compatible with traditional and prehistoric uses of starch as most starches before the invention of pottery was either eaten raw or "burned" probably. Hard to say though as fermentation is not so easy to detect archeologically. I know that some tribes preper their foods still in this simplest of ways just by putting tubers and meat in the fire, eat some and put it back if it's to raw further in. But how about amylation?? Its cross-linking after all.(by the way the "can make proteins" thing is non-sensical. theres no special protein forming substance or function there).

I note that from a ph-perspective- of which I am unsure the value of though ph- is indicative of the amount of free electrons presenet and thus relevant to a negative ionization/bio-energetic perspective- Peats treatment option of corn meal with lime is alkaline, while dextrinization is an acid-driven phenomonon. Chemically it seems to be what caramelization is to simple sugars and Maillard reaction in meat. So basically its intruging but also hard to find any proof of the benefit of it. It does mechanically split the starch-molecules but if that makes it equal to simple glucose is debateable. I know that baking a potatoe will be hard pressed to make a large amount of dextrins if you dont grill it instead as the dextrins (at least the pyrodextrins made through heating) are recognizeable by their browning colour. And very little of a baked potatoe gets brown. Also its interesting that mastication (very long such) for 15 minutes gives the same effect. When amylaze treated starch is eposed to hyrdochloric acid the starch is dextrinized meaning it actually occurs in the stomach (though nobody chews that much). But since nobody charres a baking potatoe all the way true I am not sure if the dextrin percentage is so much higher in the baked potatoe then a well chewed non-baked one. If anyone have any actual research of this except the threads on dextrins already on this forum it would be interesting. I know at least that some people are told to avoid it as it is to hard on their digestion and some people experience bloating and other unpleasent side effects.
 

Eberhardt

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
607
Yeah, @Mr.Bollox, let us know what Ray Peat thinks about it please
I think Ray Peat prefers nixtamalization.
But...I tried it, nixtamalization is a messy process and lots of waste...not sustainable. Besides I was warried that nixtamal can be bad for teeth as it turned black my aluminum pot when I tried to warm nixtamalized corn in it.
I think aluminum pot is the thing to worry about here....:chicken:
 
OP
Rinse & rePeat
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,494
it does improve it sure , its bland but not bad. a bit like plain white rice for me. I don't by the way know much except raw meat and fruit that goes well without even salt

I agree, but starch absolutely needs butter, salt, sugar or something to make it not taste like cardboard. A sweet new potato would be the only exception for me.
 

Eberhardt

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
607
I agree, but starch absolutely needs butter, salt, sugar or something to make it not taste like cardboard. A sweet new potato would be the only exception for me.
definatly high on that list if I have to choose a winner. NOT green bananas anyway
 

Apple

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
1,262
I dont want to discard this argument. On the other hand it is not as clear as it sounds from the quotes which are largely inflated and misleading as well as sometimes patently false. There are many types of dextrinization both wet and dry and grains dextrinize just fine, though they wet dextrinize instead usually. Bread crust and toast is dextrinized though as examples. I am not sure what to make of it though - to be honest the times I've ingested maltodextrin I've felt really good and dextrins are used in iv infusions and for diabetics to raise blood sugar. It has a very high glycemic index but I am not sure if that is so much a problem in real life - espeically if not in the precense of elvated free fatty acids/pufas. I can see that dextrinization is very compatible with traditional and prehistoric uses of starch as most starches before the invention of pottery was either eaten raw or "burned" probably. Hard to say though as fermentation is not so easy to detect archeologically. I know that some tribes preper their foods still in this simplest of ways just by putting tubers and meat in the fire, eat some and put it back if it's to raw further in. But how about amylation?? Its cross-linking after all.(by the way the "can make proteins" thing is non-sensical. theres no special protein forming substance or function there).

I note that from a ph-perspective- of which I am unsure the value of though ph- is indicative of the amount of free electrons presenet and thus relevant to a negative ionization/bio-energetic perspective- Peats treatment option of corn meal with lime is alkaline, while dextrinization is an acid-driven phenomonon. Chemically it seems to be what caramelization is to simple sugars and Maillard reaction in meat. So basically its intruging but also hard to find any proof of the benefit of it. It does mechanically split the starch-molecules but if that makes it equal to simple glucose is debateable. I know that baking a potatoe will be hard pressed to make a large amount of dextrins if you dont grill it instead as the dextrins (at least the pyrodextrins made through heating) are recognizeable by their browning colour. And very little of a baked potatoe gets brown. Also its interesting that mastication (very long such) for 15 minutes gives the same effect. When amylaze treated starch is eposed to hyrdochloric acid the starch is dextrinized meaning it actually occurs in the stomach (though nobody chews that much). But since nobody charres a baking potatoe all the way true I am not sure if the dextrin percentage is so much higher in the baked potatoe then a well chewed non-baked one. If anyone have any actual research of this except the threads on dextrins already on this forum it would be interesting. I know at least that some people are told to avoid it as it is to hard on their digestion and some people experience bloating and other unpleasent side effects.
I liked that idea about pyro-dextrinization since I digest very well stuff like baked potato and properly toasted bread (or bread crust). In some countries it is a common thing to eat bread crust and discard soft part ( i saw it many times)...now that makes sense to me. :)
Baking thinly sliced potato in coconut oil makes very digestible food to me.
I don't think thoroughly chewing potato, if boiled, would help since starch particles persorption starts from mouth.
I don't know much about amylation .

It reminds me of peanuts...boiling peanuts is not enough to eliminate all the mold/toxins. Peanuts should be roasted at high temperature. It probably destroys some oxalates and antinutrients too.
 
Last edited:

Eberhardt

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
607
I liked that idea about pyro-dextrinization since I digest very well stuff like baked potato and properly toasted bread (or bread crust). In some countries it is a common thing to eat bread crust and discard soft part ( i saw it many times)...now that makes sense to me. :)
Baking thinly sliced potato in coconut oil makes very digestible food to me.
I don't think thoroughly chewing potato, if boiled, would help since starch particles persorption starts from mouth.
I don't know much about amylation .
I see how the slized and coconut-oil baking would help. But is that baking not frying? (I am not a native english speaker). I dont know how amylaze affects starch that has been gelitanized as the cooked starch has though. Adding some fat might help stop that according to peat.. But I was talking about raw starch not cooked.

sorry about the amylation that was a mis-print. I was thinking about amylase and thus amylization when writing it. I ment amidization. i.e. the creation of polyamids in burnt food that is high on the suspicion list for decises like alzheimers and general AGE products in the body. Since dextrinization produces crosslinking like in polyamids I am suspicious but not sure if its a valid deduction to make.

Edit: I did a quick search now and from the wiki article on polyamins I found this: Acrylamide levels appear to rise as food is heated for longer periods of time. Although researchers are still unsure of the precise mechanisms by which acrylamide forms in foods,[24] many believe it is a byproduct of the Maillard reaction.

SInce Maillard reaction is the protein paralell to dextrinization I am worried but again undecided only wondering. Maybe also, IF this is a problem is the result of heat and not dextinization as such since it is highly unlikely that there would be crosslinking problems occuring in the stomach from amylaze and hydochloric acid. IF again then it does and this is indicative of starch being not good for digestion etc. All this again of course depends on the factuality of the carcinogenic properties of polyamins and similiar substances in humans as the proofs therof are in animals and there is speculation that since humans have genetic adaption to smoke from fires we might also have that to polyamins to some degree
 
Last edited:

Apple

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
1,262
I see how the slized and coconut-oil baking would help. But is that baking not frying? (I am not a native english speaker). I dont know how amylaze affects starch that has been gelitanized as the cooked starch has though. Adding some fat might help stop that according to peat.. But I was talking about raw starch not cooked.

sorry about the amylation that was a mis-print. I was thinking about amylase and thus amylization when writing it. I ment amidization. i.e. the creation of polyamids in burnt food that is high on the suspicion list for decises like alzheimers and general AGE products in the body. Since dextrinization produces crosslinking like in polyamids I am suspicious but not sure if its a valid deduction to make.

Edit: I did a quick search now and from the wiki article on polyamins I found this: Acrylamide levels appear to rise as food is heated for longer periods of time. Although researchers are still unsure of the precise mechanisms by which acrylamide forms in foods,[24] many believe it is a byproduct of the Maillard reaction.

SInce Maillard reaction is the protein paralell to dextrinization I am worried but again undecided only wondering. Maybe also, IF this is a problem is the result of heat and not dextinization as such since it is highly unlikely that there would be crosslinking problems occuring in the stomach from amylaze and hydochloric acid. IF again then it does and this is indicative of starch being not good for digestion etc. All this again of course depends on the factuality of the carcinogenic properties of polyamins and similiar substances in humans as the proofs therof are in animals and there is speculation that since humans have genetic adaption to smoke from fires we might also have that to polyamins to some degree
I would call it "baking" since I add butter in very small amounts so it doesn't stick...It comes out baked , not fried :)). Though more fat makes it tastier
I understand your concern about polyamids/acrylamide ... I guess it is unexplored area. Same as starch persorption/embolism ... Is it really bad? If so...why nobody rings the alarm?
Raw and not starchy fruit is better option anyway
But occasionally baked potato with veggies and some fat/proteins is not a big deal. The degree of baking is important. No doubt black burnt bread is no good compared to a golden color toast.
We consume acrylamide in some amount anyway...coffee and bone broth are good examples.
 
Last edited:

Eberhardt

Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2019
Messages
607
I would call it "baking" since I add butter in very small amounts so it doesn't stick...It comes out baked , not fried :)). Though more fat makes it tastier
I understand your concern about polyamids/acrylamide ... I guess it is unexplored area. Same as starch persorption/embolism ... Is it really bad? If so...why nobody rings the alarm?
Raw and not starchy fruit is better option anyway
But occasionally baked potato with veggies and some fat/proteins is not a big deal. The degree of baking is important. No doubt black burnt bread is no good compared to a golden color toast.
We consume acrylamide in some amount anyway...coffee and bone broth are good examples.
I love a good debate but here I can do nothing but just nod. I agree to all of it. And yes I do eat potatoes myself
 

Apple

Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2015
Messages
1,262

Chewing Bread

Bread is full of carbohydrates. Starches are considered a type of complex carbohydrate, which begins to be broken down into maltose as soon as it's in our mouths. Give each student a slice of bread that has been cut in two. The students chew one half of the bread for three minutes and write down their observations as to the changes in how the bread tastes. The other half of the bread is chewed for 10 seconds, then placed in a safe container for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes are up, the students chew the bread again. In both cases, the bread should begin to get sweeter as the amylase begins to convert the carbohydrates into maltose, which tastes sweet.
 
OP
Rinse & rePeat
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,494
"A diet that provides enough calcium to limit activity of the parathyroid glands, and that is low in phosphate and polyunsaturated fats, with sugar rather than starch as the main carbohydrate, possibly supplemented by niacinamide and aspirin, should help to avoid some of the degenerative processes associated with high phosphate: fatigue, heart failure, movement discoordination, hypogonadism, infertility, vascular calcification, emphysema, cancer, osteoporosis, and atrophy of skin, skeletal muscle, intestine, thymus, and spleen (Ohnishi and Razzaque, 2010; Shiraki-Iida, et al., 2000; Kuro-o, et al., 1997; Osuka and Razzaque, 2012). "
-Ray Peat
 
OP
Rinse & rePeat
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,494
"A diet focused on nutrient rich animal foods with a notable absence of grain based and starchy foods was likely a key reason she only required light exercise to maintain her enviable figure."

 
OP
Rinse & rePeat
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,494
"Naturally fermented sourdough is less harmful than standard or unleavened wheat products, but any starch tends to stimulate appetite by activating fat synthesis. The same number of calories in fruit would be less fattening, and would keep your blood sugar steadier, improve your sleep and mental energy." -Ray Peat
 
OP
Rinse & rePeat
Joined
Mar 10, 2021
Messages
21,494
Apr 25, 2016

Jayfish e-mail

Question: do you believe a fiber free diet is possible in context of gut health and transit time for elimination.

"I’ve had a fiber-free diet for many years."

This is an interesting response and I might ask if he could elaborate at all. I think we are all under the impression that RP eats some amounts of fiber, carrots, mushrooms, turnips, fruit, etc. I'm wondering now if these are more recommendations but not necessarily what he actually eats.
 

Similar threads

Replies
37
Views
4K
Deleted member 5487
D
Back
Top Bottom