Starch; Libido & Hormones

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Sobieski

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How is your sleep?

I also found that starch has bad effect for me. Grains are the worst, rice in the middle, tubers are the best but still not perfect.
Problem is that if i eat only fruits as carbs i can't sleep. That's why i am forced to include potatoes/sweet potatoes before bed.

What do you eat for dinner?

Incidentally my sleep is best with lots of complex carbs; grains like oats and brown rice/wheat really allow me to fall asleep easily; they also produce a very calm mental state. The problem is, as I mentioned, I physically deteriorate from them and my libido tanks, I have little idea behind the mechanism. The first symptoms are arthritic - type stiffness and pain in my fingers.

For me the order goes from worst to neutral - Grains, tubers and rice.

Dinner is usually just meat and rice with oj. I quite like white Italian pasta but I'm not sure if this also causes deleterious effects for me. Unfortunately I can only go completely go starch free when I do very little all day, if I'm active (most of the time) I need the calories.
 

artist

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I have issues with starch and the same paradox (can't live with it, eventually can't live without it). Based on my experience and research I truly believe that starch intolerance means you have either SIBO or the presence of extra bad bacteria in the lower gut. Personally I'm mostly fine with starch as long as I take oregano oil with it (has to be in capsule form), but I'm not sure it's healthy to slam down oregano oil all day every day so I'm avoiding starch again for the time being. Many people with serious autoimmune disorders like ankylosing spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis are able to control their symptoms 90-100% through eating a zero starch diet. These disorders are associated with the presence of certain strains of bacteria whose population is controlled by starch avoidance. I assume in my case I have something similar going on. In Peat's framework autoimmunity isn't really a thing. I don't have all the time in the world to prove or disprove something that complex, but I do get unsustainably severe joint inflammation, eye pain+floaters, fatigue, depression and anxiety, from eating starch. My hands became permanently more gnarled looking after an attempt at a high starch diet several years ago. I consider these to be signs of what would be considered autoimmunity in common parlance. Unfortunately I have not found any information about a permanent solution to starch intolerance. The control of bacteria populations is only temporary, they come back as soon as starch is reintroduced or oregano oil is removed. In Peat World the likely advice is to improve thyroid function, gut integrity etc. and then one wouldn't have such bacteria issues. Unfortunately supplementing thyroid, years of avoiding PUFA, eating coconut oil, nutrient dense foods, etc, have not made any meaningful difference for me thus far. Avoiding diet triggers is the only thing that's ultimately made a difference in my health, and that means avoiding starch.
 

johnwester130

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Incidentally my sleep is best with lots of complex carbs; grains like oats and brown rice/wheat really allow me to fall asleep easily; they also produce a very calm mental state. The problem is, as I mentioned, I physically deteriorate from them and my libido tanks, I have little idea behind the mechanism. The first symptoms are arthritic - type stiffness and pain in my fingers.

For me the order goes from worst to neutral - Grains, tubers and rice.

Dinner is usually just meat and rice with oj. I quite like white Italian pasta but I'm not sure if this also causes deleterious effects for me. Unfortunately I can only go completely go starch free when I do very little all day, if I'm active (most of the time) I need the calories.

oats and brown rice are horrific to eat.

My guess is the phytic acid gave you a problem.

Potatoes, and white rice, are much safer, and starch needs to be eaten with coconut oil
 

DaveFoster

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In a hypothyroid state, starch, even if served with liberal coconut oil or butter lowers the libido, raises the pulse and elevates stress hormones.

Coconut oil might actually exacerbate the tendency of starch to lower blood sugar due to the body's rapid utilization of its fatty acids.

Edward J. Edmonds mentions it in a comment on his blog:

"It’s more of a your “millage may vary”/hunch type deal. The saturated fats in coconut oil are absorbed rapidly. Too rapidly in my opinion, enough to shift hormones and induce hypoglycemia. I don’t like sudden fluxes in hormones."
 
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Sobieski

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oats and brown rice are horrific to eat.

My guess is the phytic acid gave you a problem.

Potatoes, and white rice, are much safer, and starch needs to be eaten with coconut oil

This is possible, as my teeth also deteriorated eating loads of grains. I used to be able to eat anything and digest all types of foods effortlessly. I decided I was going to become 'healthy' and eat a whole food, nutrient rich diet. First did paleo, couldn't handle the low carbs, then went fibre-rich, whole grains, vegetables etc and that's when after some time problems started and are seemingly impossible to reverse having eaten that way for 18 months. Potatoes make me constipated and cause joint stiffness after a while as well. Histamine (cheddar, certain types of dark chocolate) containing foods also seem to cause this so I imagine it's part of a wider auto immune reaction.
 
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Sobieski

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I have issues with starch and the same paradox (can't live with it, eventually can't live without it). Based on my experience and research I truly believe that starch intolerance means you have either SIBO or the presence of extra bad bacteria in the lower gut. Personally I'm mostly fine with starch as long as I take oregano oil with it (has to be in capsule form), but I'm not sure it's healthy to slam down oregano oil all day every day so I'm avoiding starch again for the time being. Many people with serious autoimmune disorders like ankylosing spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis are able to control their symptoms 90-100% through eating a zero starch diet. These disorders are associated with the presence of certain strains of bacteria whose population is controlled by starch avoidance. I assume in my case I have something similar going on. In Peat's framework autoimmunity isn't really a thing. I don't have all the time in the world to prove or disprove something that complex, but I do get unsustainably severe joint inflammation, eye pain+floaters, fatigue, depression and anxiety, from eating starch. My hands became permanently more gnarled looking after an attempt at a high starch diet several years ago. I consider these to be signs of what would be considered autoimmunity in common parlance. Unfortunately I have not found any information about a permanent solution to starch intolerance. The control of bacteria populations is only temporary, they come back as soon as starch is reintroduced or oregano oil is removed. In Peat World the likely advice is to improve thyroid function, gut integrity etc. and then one wouldn't have such bacteria issues. Unfortunately supplementing thyroid, years of avoiding PUFA, eating coconut oil, nutrient dense foods, etc, have not made any meaningful difference for me thus far. Avoiding diet triggers is the only thing that's ultimately made a difference in my health, and that means avoiding starch.

Yes, for me many starches seem to be worse than pufa's.
 
OP
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Sobieski

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In a hypothyroid state, starch, even if served with liberal coconut oil or butter lowers the libido, raises the pulse and elevates stress hormones.

Coconut oil might actually exacerbate the tendency of starch to lower blood sugar due to the body's rapid utilization of its fatty acids.

Edward J. Edmonds mentions it in a comment on his blog:

"It’s more of a your “millage may vary”/hunch type deal. The saturated fats in coconut oil are absorbed rapidly. Too rapidly in my opinion, enough to shift hormones and induce hypoglycemia. I don’t like sudden fluxes in hormones."

Interesting, thanks.
 

EIRE24

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I have issues with starch and the same paradox (can't live with it, eventually can't live without it). Based on my experience and research I truly believe that starch intolerance means you have either SIBO or the presence of extra bad bacteria in the lower gut. Personally I'm mostly fine with starch as long as I take oregano oil with it (has to be in capsule form), but I'm not sure it's healthy to slam down oregano oil all day every day so I'm avoiding starch again for the time being. Many people with serious autoimmune disorders like ankylosing spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis are able to control their symptoms 90-100% through eating a zero starch diet. These disorders are associated with the presence of certain strains of bacteria whose population is controlled by starch avoidance. I assume in my case I have something similar going on. In Peat's framework autoimmunity isn't really a thing. I don't have all the time in the world to prove or disprove something that complex, but I do get unsustainably severe joint inflammation, eye pain+floaters, fatigue, depression and anxiety, from eating starch. My hands became permanently more gnarled looking after an attempt at a high starch diet several years ago. I consider these to be signs of what would be considered autoimmunity in common parlance. Unfortunately I have not found any information about a permanent solution to starch intolerance. The control of bacteria populations is only temporary, they come back as soon as starch is reintroduced or oregano oil is removed. In Peat World the likely advice is to improve thyroid function, gut integrity etc. and then one wouldn't have such bacteria issues. Unfortunately supplementing thyroid, years of avoiding PUFA, eating coconut oil, nutrient dense foods, etc, have not made any meaningful difference for me thus far. Avoiding diet triggers is the only thing that's ultimately made a difference in my health, and that means avoiding starch.
Have you ever tried an antibiotic or even a high potency probiotic?
 

artist

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Have you ever tried an antibiotic or even a high potency probiotic?
Other than antibiotics prescribed for things like ear infections, UTIs, etc by doctors over the course of my life the only antibiotic I've taken is oregano oil, which I've found to be pretty strong. It actually messed up my gut flora enough taking it long term that I now take a probiotic to compensate and make my digestion healthy (which it is now). I am considering taking one of the Peat recommended antibiotics but am weighing the pros and cons and the likelihood of it doing anything beneficial and permanent.
 

jet9

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What i like about starch (tubers) is their calming effect comparing to fruits. Fruits leave me anxious, restless. I work in sales and can't deal with people unless i ate starch.
With just fruits i am to anxious - i can say my exact same speech but i am too tense and people feel it. So i have to eat starch for financial reasons ;)
 

Lokzo

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Libido has more to do with how attracted you are to your partner(s) than anything else.

And how frequently you mausturbate.

Also, blaming just one food or type of food could ignore many other things you're eating/taking/doing that could cause it.

The Peat answer here would be stop consuming starch in all forms and try fruit, fruit juice, low fat lactose, non-allergenic honey and some pure sucrose as your carbohydrate sources.

I disagree. I am in the exact same boat as the OP. I can't touch potatoes anymore, unless they are fresh sweet potatoes that have just been cooked. White potatoes, especially left in the fridge, always KILLS my libido, and makes me extremely passive, sorrowful, and de-motivated. I have no idea what/how, but as others have mentioned above, perhaps it is the gut irritation, triggering serotonin release. I don't think anyone will really understand how/why this happens.
 

Lokzo

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"They also produce a very calm mental state. The problem is, as I mentioned, I physically deteriorate from them and my libido tanks," - Exactly the same response as me. I feel like I am on a mega dose of Theanine when I have a lot of starch. SO unusual. I can't figure this out.
 

Lokzo

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I have issues with starch and the same paradox (can't live with it, eventually can't live without it). Based on my experience and research I truly believe that starch intolerance means you have either SIBO or the presence of extra bad bacteria in the lower gut. Personally I'm mostly fine with starch as long as I take oregano oil with it (has to be in capsule form), but I'm not sure it's healthy to slam down oregano oil all day every day so I'm avoiding starch again for the time being. Many people with serious autoimmune disorders like ankylosing spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis are able to control their symptoms 90-100% through eating a zero starch diet. These disorders are associated with the presence of certain strains of bacteria whose population is controlled by starch avoidance. I assume in my case I have something similar going on. In Peat's framework autoimmunity isn't really a thing. I don't have all the time in the world to prove or disprove something that complex, but I do get unsustainably severe joint inflammation, eye pain+floaters, fatigue, depression and anxiety, from eating starch. My hands became permanently more gnarled looking after an attempt at a high starch diet several years ago. I consider these to be signs of what would be considered autoimmunity in common parlance. Unfortunately I have not found any information about a permanent solution to starch intolerance. The control of bacteria populations is only temporary, they come back as soon as starch is reintroduced or oregano oil is removed. In Peat World the likely advice is to improve thyroid function, gut integrity etc. and then one wouldn't have such bacteria issues. Unfortunately supplementing thyroid, years of avoiding PUFA, eating coconut oil, nutrient dense foods, etc, have not made any meaningful difference for me thus far. Avoiding diet triggers is the only thing that's ultimately made a difference in my health, and that means avoiding starch.

Wow, great write up here. I too have had SIBO, and some Klebsiella/infections in my large intestine (CDSA level 4). "Many people with serious autoimmune disorders like ankylosing spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis are able to control their symptoms 90-100% through eating a zero starch diet." - Where did you learn about this?
 

Wagner83

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I disagree. I am in the exact same boat as the OP. I can't touch potatoes anymore, unless they are fresh sweet potatoes that have just been cooked. White potatoes, especially left in the fridge, always KILLS my libido, and makes me extremely passive, sorrowful, and de-motivated. I have no idea what/how, but as others have mentioned above, perhaps it is the gut irritation, triggering serotonin release. I don't think anyone will really understand how/why this happens.
Potatoes cooked then cooled are awful for me, the same happens with white jasmine rice: digestibility is greatly reduced .
What do you eat? High fat?

This is book is about controlling digestive issues by avoidance of starch (and probably other things) :
Breaking the Vicious Cycle : Intestinal Health Through Diet
 
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artist

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Wow, great write up here. I too have had SIBO, and some Klebsiella/infections in my large intestine (CDSA level 4). "Many people with serious autoimmune disorders like ankylosing spondylitis and rheumatoid arthritis are able to control their symptoms 90-100% through eating a zero starch diet." - Where did you learn about this?
From Googling around I discovered that the main explicitly "starch free" dieters (versus broadly low-carb, paleo etc) out there are people with those conditions. Here are some links
https://chriskresser.com/hla-b27-and-autoimmune-disease-is-a-low-starch-diet-the-solution/ --> the comments section is full of interesting anecdotes from people with AS and others
The use of a low starch diet in the treatment of patients suffering from ankylosing spondylitis. - PubMed - NCBI
Auto-immune disease HLA-B27, client pain free on no starch, paleo diet
I also previously came across a no-starch/AS facebook group but I can't find it at the moment for some reason
 

Runenight201

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In my opinion, starch is necessary if you are going to be carrying out high amounts of muscle and are active. Subsisting on a starch free diet for me usually results in terrible moods, fatigue, decreased spatial awareness, and general apathy. When my carb levels are flowing high, I'm anabolic as hell, very hard morning erections, high drive/motivation.

However, most starches I react terribly too. For some reason for me, white rice definitely induces fatigue, anything whole grain triggers endotoxin. Oats taste like **** (how does anyone eat these??). Pasta digests well, but I'm hesitant to consume now based on reading Travis posts. That leaves me with tubers. Sweet potatoes are a godsend, in that I can eat them, they produce no fatigue, and with cinnamon are quite tasty. However, eating them 3-4 meals a day I can see myself definitely getting tired of. I will be testing white potatoes again today with more heightened awareness to see how I react. Advice on making sweet potatoes more savory and less sweet would be greatly appreciated

After reading Travis' post about Serotonin and the Fernstrom ratio, I've finally put two and two together in terms of why I feel tired a lot of the time after eating certain starches. One of the arguments Peat uses against starches are that they trigger a greater insulin response compared to fruits. Insulin shoves everything into the cell, except for tryptophan, which then gets left to raise brain concentrations of serotonin. I've definitely noticed how after a plain white rice or plantain meal, I instantly get tired and dreamy, like I'm under the influence of increased melatonin (tryp - serotonin - melatonin). This doesn't happen with sweet potatoes for some reason? The only thing I can think of is that somehow the vitamins/minerals in sweet potatoes mitigate the insulin response or does something else physiologically that doesn't cause my body to produce serotonin and then melatonin. Perhaps it's digestibility, as most serotonin is produced in the gut. Fruity pebbles digest very well for me and gives me great morning erections when consumed at night=P, but I'm trying a dairy free diet for the next couple days (in a paleo-esque experiment), and fruity pebble with water just doesn't seem right.

Sweet fruit gives me energy and tastes good, but anymore than a couple isolated servings and I get hyper-excited, slightly sickly feeling, and definite feel teeth deterioration. Raw veggies don't taste good, but steamed broccoli and kale both tastes good and combined with OJ gives me very positive feelings of well-being (could be placebo, but w/e)
 

Wagner83

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In my opinion, starch is necessary if you are going to be carrying out high amounts of muscle and are active. Subsisting on a starch free diet for me usually results in terrible moods, fatigue, decreased spatial awareness, and general apathy. When my carb levels are flowing high, I'm anabolic as hell, very hard morning erections, high drive/motivation.

However, most starches I react terribly too. For some reason for me, white rice definitely induces fatigue, anything whole grain triggers endotoxin. Oats taste like **** (how does anyone eat these??). Pasta digests well, but I'm hesitant to consume now based on reading Travis posts. That leaves me with tubers. Sweet potatoes are a godsend, in that I can eat them, they produce no fatigue, and with cinnamon are quite tasty. However, eating them 3-4 meals a day I can see myself definitely getting tired of. I will be testing white potatoes again today with more heightened awareness to see how I react. Advice on making sweet potatoes more savory and less sweet would be greatly appreciated

After reading Travis' post about Serotonin and the Fernstrom ratio, I've finally put two and two together in terms of why I feel tired a lot of the time after eating certain starches. One of the arguments Peat uses against starches are that they trigger a greater insulin response compared to fruits. Insulin shoves everything into the cell, except for tryptophan, which then gets left to raise brain concentrations of serotonin. I've definitely noticed how after a plain white rice or plantain meal, I instantly get tired and dreamy, like I'm under the influence of increased melatonin (tryp - serotonin - melatonin). This doesn't happen with sweet potatoes for some reason? The only thing I can think of is that somehow the vitamins/minerals in sweet potatoes mitigate the insulin response or does something else physiologically that doesn't cause my body to produce serotonin and then melatonin. Perhaps it's digestibility, as most serotonin is produced in the gut. Fruity pebbles digest very well for me and gives me great morning erections when consumed at night=P, but I'm trying a dairy free diet for the next couple days (in a paleo-esque experiment), and fruity pebble with water just doesn't seem right.

Sweet fruit gives me energy and tastes good, but anymore than a couple isolated servings and I get hyper-excited, slightly sickly feeling, and definite feel teeth deterioration. Raw veggies don't taste good, but steamed broccoli and kale both tastes good and combined with OJ gives me very positive feelings of well-being (could be placebo, but w/e)
Sweet potatoes have much more fibers which could explain your reaction to them. Perhaps adding a source of fiber which you tolerate, some safe spices (turmeric, ginger), herbs, some fat and proteins can help you deal with rice and potatoes. A glass of fresh orange juice can be nice. Other people reported a small dose of niacinamide helped as well. I get sick of the über sweetness of sweet potatoes, one or two is fine. I find that pineapples are an expensive but enjoyable source of fibers (and nutrients). It has a rougher cleansing effect at first, but the built in digestive aids seem to prevent bacteria from celebrating. Perhaps papaya and kiwi fruits would work to an extent, I definitely enjoy kiwi fruits. Other fruits like peaches taste great but seem to give negative effects.
 
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Sobieski

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In my opinion, starch is necessary if you are going to be carrying out high amounts of muscle and are active. Subsisting on a starch free diet for me usually results in terrible moods, fatigue, decreased spatial awareness, and general apathy. When my carb levels are flowing high, I'm anabolic as hell, very hard morning erections, high drive/motivation.

However, most starches I react terribly too. For some reason for me, white rice definitely induces fatigue, anything whole grain triggers endotoxin. Oats taste like **** (how does anyone eat these??). Pasta digests well, but I'm hesitant to consume now based on reading Travis posts. That leaves me with tubers. Sweet potatoes are a godsend, in that I can eat them, they produce no fatigue, and with cinnamon are quite tasty. However, eating them 3-4 meals a day I can see myself definitely getting tired of. I will be testing white potatoes again today with more heightened awareness to see how I react. Advice on making sweet potatoes more savory and less sweet would be greatly appreciated

After reading Travis' post about Serotonin and the Fernstrom ratio, I've finally put two and two together in terms of why I feel tired a lot of the time after eating certain starches. One of the arguments Peat uses against starches are that they trigger a greater insulin response compared to fruits. Insulin shoves everything into the cell, except for tryptophan, which then gets left to raise brain concentrations of serotonin. I've definitely noticed how after a plain white rice or plantain meal, I instantly get tired and dreamy, like I'm under the influence of increased melatonin (tryp - serotonin - melatonin). This doesn't happen with sweet potatoes for some reason? The only thing I can think of is that somehow the vitamins/minerals in sweet potatoes mitigate the insulin response or does something else physiologically that doesn't cause my body to produce serotonin and then melatonin. Perhaps it's digestibility, as most serotonin is produced in the gut. Fruity pebbles digest very well for me and gives me great morning erections when consumed at night=P, but I'm trying a dairy free diet for the next couple days (in a paleo-esque experiment), and fruity pebble with water just doesn't seem right.

Sweet fruit gives me energy and tastes good, but anymore than a couple isolated servings and I get hyper-excited, slightly sickly feeling, and definite feel teeth deterioration. Raw veggies don't taste good, but steamed broccoli and kale both tastes good and combined with OJ gives me very positive feelings of well-being (could be placebo, but w/e)
Potassium.
 

YourUniverse

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\Sweet potatoes are not all that starchy, actually. They have a decent blend of starches and sugars (and fibre), and notably to me at least, are a source of Maltose (a rare-ish sugar from my point of view).

Im in the process of changing my tune on starches - I think they are probably necessary for highly active people in replenishing glycogen, at the right times (like breakfast and post-workout), and tubers are also probably the best source (peeled, definitely).

I think Peat speaks in ways that are meant to counter-balance a lot of nutritional paradigms for the average person, but this advice gets taken in a vacuum at times when it shouldnt.

The problem as I see it is OVER-consumption of starches, OVER-consumption of muscle meats, UNDER-consumption (from the perspective of the general population) of milk & fruit (as they are varying degrees to demonized, but are necessary components of a healthy diet).

I think the ideal diet includes starch, probably from tubers, but they are included at meals with portions of fructose, sucrose, lactose; their calcium:phosphorus is no more than 1:2; their carb:protein:fat in calories is roughly ~2 : 1 : 1, there are plenty of minerals like salt and potassium, and etc. He argues against breathless exercise, but if one was so compelled, more starch is probably needed to replenish that person.

Glucose is the energy source of our cells, not fructose, not lactose, not saturated fat nor caffeine, maltose, salt, protein, etc. For a sedentary person (as is sort of recommended, at least as passably healthy by Peat), this should supply all the glucose a person would need with average muscle mass, but YMMV.

I like breakfast with a glass of OJ, a bigger glass of skim milk, 3-4 salted eggs fried in butter, a cup of coffee with honey, and a piece of sourdough. I feel like the fructose, sucrose, lactose, protein, fat, calcium, salt, all taken in combination, slow the glucose, negate many or all of the negatives of starch, and give me more energy overall.

Balancing the types of sugars, along with the macros, along with the micros, multiple times per day, is my next logical frontier.
 
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