Starch And Fat ?

[beachbum]

Hello all,

Does eating lets say potatoes with melted cheese cause fat aroung the belly and fat everywhere in general or is it really all about controlling insullin and stress hormones. I see on here eat low starch, no starch, starch and fat. No put intended but my gut feeling I really believe it's all about insullin and stress hormoones. And increasing metabolism.

Thank you

 

[lollipop]

Hello all,

Does eating lets say potatoes with melted cheese cause fat aroung the belly and fat everywhere in general or is it really all about controlling insullin and stress hormones. I see on here eat low starch, no starch, starch and fat. No put intended but my gut feeling I really believe it's all about insullin and stress hormoones. And increasing metabolism.

Thank you

Your question hits at probably one of the most debated thoughts on this forum. If you look up tyw's comments, westside's comment history you will be thrown into very good and highly explored ideas on all sides of this question. Lot of reading but worth it..

 

[beachbum]

Your question hits at probably one of the most debated thoughts on this forum. If you look up tyw's comments, westside's comment history you will be thrown into very good and highly explored ideas on all sides of this question. Lot of reading but worth it..

okay will do..I hope I dont get cofused..lol

 

[lollipop]

okay will do..I hope I dont get cofused..lol

:-D

It took me a bit to wrap my head around it and come to my own conclusion. Truly what I love about Ray Peat: Perceive, Think, Act. It is such a liberating way to live life ❤

 

[beachbum]

:-D

It took me a bit to wrap my head around it and come to my own conclusion. Truly what I love about Ray Peat: Perceive, Think, Act. It is such a liberating way to live life ❤

May I ask what your conclusion was.

 

[lollipop]

Sure: starch with lower amounts of fat (not no fat). This is altered from my previous thought of high fat with starch.

 

[beachbum]

Sure: starch with lower amounts of fat (not no fat). This is altered from my previous thought of high fat with starch.

Thank you. I was thinking along those lines too. So potatoes with cheese to much or like frying in a little butter is better.

 

[WestCoaster]

It'd be about insulin and stress hormones. The glucose from the potatoes will drive up insulin on it's own, and will prevent stored fat from being broken down as energy. The body chooses glucose over fat to be burned so the body will have to burn through the glucose from the potatoes before it burns off the fat from the cheese for energy. This results in the cheese fat likely being stored as fat until 1) Glucose is burned off 2) Insulin lowers enough allowing fat to be burned. This is why the SAD (high carb and high fat diet) has such dire consequences.

When you think about it in nature, what foods found in nature are both high carb and high fat?? I can't think of any offhand.

 

[beachbum]

So how do you use stored fat for energy. Well guess ketosis.tried it ..not good.

 

[Westside PUFAs]

It'd be about insulin and stress hormones. The glucose from the potatoes will drive up insulin on it's own, and will prevent stored fat from being broken down as energy. The body chooses glucose over fat to be burned so the body will have to burn through the glucose from the potatoes before it burns off the fat from the cheese for energy. This results in the cheese fat likely being stored as fat until 1) Glucose is burned off 2) Insulin lowers enough allowing fat to be burned. This is why the SAD (high carb and high fat diet) has such dire consequences.

When you think about it in nature, what foods found in nature are both high carb and high fat?? I can't think of any offhand.

 

[Travis]

'When you think about it in nature, what foods found in nature are both high carb and high fat?? I can't think of any offhand.'​

Coconut‐stuffed dates (...could be natural if you plant a date palm close to a coconut palm and they fuse together).

Just kidding. The closest I think of is durian, but those are only about 5% fat.

And don't forget about wheat, which can cause weight gain in a radically different manner. Believe it or not, the ingestion of gluten exorphins reliably releases prolactin through the δ-opioid receptor. This is the only fat promoting hormonal effect from food I can think of, and casomorphins don't do this as they act on the μ-opioid receptor.

 

[alywest]

Thank you. I was thinking along those lines too. So potatoes with cheese to much or like frying in a little butter is better.

You can also use reduced fat cheeses--believe it or not that's Peat-approved!

 

[Wagner83]

'When you think about it in nature, what foods found in nature are both high carb and high fat?? I can't think of any offhand.'​

Coconut‐stuffed dates (...could be natural if you plant a date palm close to a coconut palm and they fuse together).

Just kidding. The closest I think of is durian, but those are only about 5% fat.

And don't forget about wheat, which can cause weight gain in a radically different manner. Believe it or not, the ingestion of gluten exorphins reliably releases prolactin through the δ-opioid receptor. This is the only fat promoting hormonal effect from food I can think of, and casomorphins don't do this as they act on the μ-opioid receptor.

I only saw studies on celiac patients which showed increased prolactin but nothing otherwise, do you care to share more (I know of a few individual experiments which confirm your weight gain ideas)?

 

[raypeatclips]

'When you think about it in nature, what foods found in nature are both high carb and high fat?? I can't think of any offhand.'​

Coconut‐stuffed dates (...could be natural if you plant a date palm close to a coconut palm and they fuse together).

Just kidding. The closest I think of is durian, but those are only about 5% fat.

And don't forget about wheat, which can cause weight gain in a radically different manner. Believe it or not, the ingestion of gluten exorphins reliably releases prolactin through the δ-opioid receptor. This is the only fat promoting hormonal effect from food I can think of, and casomorphins don't do this as they act on the μ-opioid receptor.

I'm also interested in the wheat effects on prolactin if you wouldn't mind sharing, thank you.

 

[Travis]

I've read a study or two on this, and also one about prolactin in general. The pituitary gland releases prolactin, and it also releases growth horomone; these two are physically similar and are thought to have been once the same, having diverged off during evolution. Growth hormone is under the control of serotonin—where it acts to release it—and prolactin from the pituitary is largely under the control of dopamine. Dopamine actively inhibits prolactin, a canonical observation; you can even find heightened prolactin blood levels in cases of Parkinson's.

The effect of prolactin I'm most familiar with is its ability to activate phospholipase C. Consequent to this is the cleavage of inositol phosphates from cell membrane phospholipids, and subsequent intracellular calcium spike. The chemical mechanisms commonly invoked to explain this don't seem to sufficiently explain how calcium physically enters the cell; such explanations merely hint about about 'phophorylation cascades' and 'calcium pumps' (Na⁺/K⁺–ATPase's less popular cousin) as if that were sufficient. I am of the opinion that inositol phosphate's ability to physically chelate calcium directly should not be discounted:

Luttrell, B. M. "The biological relevance of the binding of calcium ions by inositol phosphates." Journal of Biological Chemistry (1993)​

I see prolactin teleologically as a hormone for increasing the calcium flux in certain cell types, and namely: the mammary cells of the female. Not all cells have prolactin receptors, but you can probably expect an increased growth in the ones that do (upon wheat ingestion, prolactin injection, or very low dopamine.)

I just did a search and found a few links that were still 'purple,' indicating that I've clicked on them before and haven't cleared my history. I'd read these articles below a few months ago:

Fanciulli, Giuseppe. "Gluten exorphin B5 stimulates prolactin secretion through opioid receptors located outside the blood-brain barrier." Life sciences (2005)

Fanciulli, Giuseppe. "Prolactin and growth hormone response to intracerebroventricular administration of the food opioid peptide gluten exorphin B5 in rats." Life sciences (2002)​

Wheat exorphins act peripherally, as the δ-opioid receptors are found nearly everywhere. The natural ligands for these receptors are the enkephalins—small, ~5 amino acid‐length peptides. The similarity between some gluten exorphins and the enkephalins is quite high, with the most similar being gluten exorphin C.

This study below detected two gluten exorphins, B₄ and B₅, in men after eating pizza. Moreover, these were detected even before the subjects ate the pizza (in most). This proves these exorphins are commonly absorbed, intact, in their active ~5 amino acid form. This article also proves that gluten exorphins are stable, in the blood, over ~12 hours:

Pennington, Christopher L. "Detection of gluten exorphin B4 and B5 in human blood by liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry/mass spectrometry." The Open Spectroscopy Journal (2007).​

Wheat can raise prolactin; most wheat flour also has reduced iron. As mentioned earlier, it's allergenic protein had been shown to cause an interferon-γ spike in celiacs.

Pre‐baked foods—as in cheap frozen pizza—may also contain residual aluminum from the baking powder (as well as sodium aluminum phosphate in the cheese, in the case of cheap frozen pizza). Wheat is refined and contains barely any minerals, or vitamins, besides those added later. I believe there are more reasons to avoid wheat than there are reasons to avoid any other. If people enjoy consuming opiates, then growing poppies is likely safer (despite the legal risk).

Oats do not have opiate effects, but they can be allergenic for some. Oats are also much less-refined and don't have iron. Potatoes are better that wheat and oats, although it's possible to live by not eating any of these.

 

[Wagner83]

Ok thanks a lot. Would the reduced iron be added to the flour or does it naturally occur in refined wheat? As for potatoes, I seem to have less obvious negative effects from refined wheat than potatoes (coated tongue, sweating, bloating if a big amount is ingested), I do love them though. Do you have any idea why that is? I know nightshades and solanine are often mentioned as potential dangerous culprits but I think quite a few healthy populations have eaten them as food, they have decent proteins, vitamins and minerals too.

I've read a study or two on this, and also one about prolactin in general. The pituitary gland releases prolactin, and it also releases growth horomone; these two are physically similar and are thought to have been once the same, having diverged off during evolution. Growth hormone is under the control of serotonin—where it acts to release it—and prolactin from the pituitary is largely under the control of dopamine. Dopamine actively inhibits prolactin, a canonical observation; you can even find heightened prolactin blood levels in cases of Parkinson's.

The effect of prolactin I'm most familiar with is its ability to activate phospholipase C. Consequent to this is the cleavage of inositol phosphates from cell membrane phospholipids, and subsequent intracellular calcium spike. The chemical mechanisms commonly invoked to explain this don't seem to sufficiently explain how calcium physically enters the cell; such explanations merely hint about about 'phophorylation cascades' and 'calcium pumps' (Na⁺/K⁺–ATPase's less popular cousin) as if that were sufficient. I am of the opinion that inositol phosphate's ability to physically chelate calcium directly should not be discounted:

Luttrell, B. M. "The biological relevance of the binding of calcium ions by inositol phosphates." Journal of Biological Chemistry (1993)​

I see prolactin teleologically as a hormone for increasing the calcium flux in certain cell types, and namely: the mammary cells of the female. Not all cells have prolactin receptors, but you can probably expect an increased growth in the ones that do (upon wheat ingestion, prolactin injection, or very low dopamine.)

I just did a search and found a few links that were still 'purple,' indicating that I've clicked on them before and haven't cleared my history. I'd read these articles below a few months ago:

Fanciulli, Giuseppe. "Gluten exorphin B5 stimulates prolactin secretion through opioid receptors located outside the blood-brain barrier." Life sciences (2005)

Fanciulli, Giuseppe. "Prolactin and growth hormone response to intracerebroventricular administration of the food opioid peptide gluten exorphin B5 in rats." Life sciences (2002)​

Wheat exorphins act peripherally, as the δ-opioid receptors are found nearly everywhere. The natural ligands for these receptors are the enkephalins—small, ~5 amino acid‐length peptides. The similarity between some gluten exorphins and the enkephalins is quite high, with the most similar being gluten exorphin C.

This study below detected two gluten exorphins, B₄ and B₅, in men after eating pizza. Moreover, these were detected even before the subjects ate the pizza (in most). This proves these exorphins are commonly absorbed, intact, in their active ~5 amino acid form. This article also proves that gluten exorphins are stable, in the blood, over ~12 hours:

Pennington, Christopher L. "Detection of gluten exorphin B4 and B5 in human blood by liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry/mass spectrometry." The Open Spectroscopy Journal (2007).​

Wheat can raise prolactin; most wheat flour also has reduced iron. As mentioned earlier, it's allergenic protein had been shown to cause an interferon-γ spike in celiacs.

Pre‐baked foods—as in cheap frozen pizza—may also contain residual aluminum from the baking powder (as well as sodium aluminum phosphate in the cheese, in the case of cheap frozen pizza). Wheat is refined and contains barely any minerals, or vitamins, besides those added later. I believe there are more reasons to avoid wheat than there are reasons to avoid any other. If people enjoy consuming opiates, then growing poppies is likely safer (despite the legal risk).

Oats do not have opiate effects, but they can be allergenic for some. Oats are also much less-refined and don't have iron. Potatoes are better that wheat and oats, although it's possible to live by not eating any of these.

 

[Travis]

Ok thanks a lot. Would the reduced iron be added to the flour or does it naturally occur in refined wheat? As for potatoes, I seem to have less obvious negative effects from refined wheat than potatoes (coated tongue, sweating, bloating if a big amount is ingested), I do love them though. Do you have any idea why that is? I know nightshades and solanine are often mentioned as potential dangerous culprits but I think quite a few healthy populations have eaten them as food, they have decent proteins, vitamins and minerals too.

Iron is added for government (FDA) mandates.

Of all things I could think of adding to refined wheat flour—on the basis of what I think the populace is deficient in—iron would be near the bottom of the list. The B vitamins added could be beneficial, but what is found in flour is still less than that found in most unrefined foods. Refined rice shares this attribute with wheat—the addition of iron and B vitamins—but differs in the allergenicity of its protein. Rice protein is also exorphinless, neutral in morphine‐like effect.

Iron is not Peat‐friendly. Although Ray talks little about wheat in his iron articles, as a whole, avoiding enriched grains—or rice—is the practical advice I would take from them. Iron, of course, can cause indiscriminate redox reactions as soon as it's binding sites (i.e. transferrin) are saturated. I think iron surrounded by porphyrin, as in heme, is generally safer on a per molecule basis; I would think the large particle size of the iron found in wheat would be much more dangerous: Volkheimer proved that micron‐sized particles can be absorbed, and Brink & Terman explains well how free iron will contribute to lipofuscin. The non‐heme iron which is found in plants, I would assume, exists divided in size down to the atom—or organic acid chelates (i.e. citrate)—which would allow transferring binding and proper use. The iron particles found in enriched 'grains' you might think would have a longer contact time with cellular and extracellular fluid, prolonging lipid peroxidation due to it's inability to be stored.

Potatoes, like rice, have hypoallergenic proteins; I think you would be hard‐pressed to find a person with a potato allergy, however subtle. But unlike rice, potatoes have no added iron particles—making them a far better theoretical choice considering iron and allergenicity. But as you've mentioned, potatoes do have solanine—which can be fatal.

Solanine and related chacocine and essentially steroids attached to a sugar ring, and have their analogues in oubain and glycyrrhizinic acid. Although it's not considered to be a mineralcorticoid, although neither is oubain, I think that it certainly must be:

click to embiggen

Judging by the effects it has when injected into mice—saying nothing of its obvious similarity to spironolactone—I think it works on the membrane mineralcorticoid receptor. Solanine depresses the respiration in rabbits and modifies the resting potential of nerves. It potatoes were make a person sweat, physically, I think a safe mechanistic bet would be solanine and/or chacocine working through the mineralcorticoid receptor.

Concentrations vary widely, and they're not destroyed by cooking—not even frying. They are concentrated on the peel, and appear to be induced by the root in response to fungal attack. Peeled potatoes naturally have less solanine and chacocine.

click to embiggen

That a nightshade can produce a steroid analogue isn't especially uncommon: ashwagandha, Piper cubeba, and the yam Dioscorea composita all produce steroid‐like glycosides. Unfortunately: the mineralcorticoid potatoes are the common varieties in the West, but the yams can be had at a premium. I don't think that solanine is especially damaging if you know what's going on; it has a short half‐life and doesn't seem to have significant effects other than those on the mineralcorticoid receptor.

Nishie, K. "Pharmacology of solanine." Toxicology and applied pharmacology (1971)
Bushway, Rodney J. "α-Chaconine and α-solanine content of potato products and their stability during several modes of cooking." Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (1981)

 

[Mito]

Iron is added for government (FDA) mandates.

Do you think the add iron can be “washed off” the rice to some extent by rinsing in water before and after cooking?

 

[Westside PUFAs]

Do you think the add iron can be “washed off” the rice to some extent by rinsing in water before and after cooking?

Just buy non-enriched rich.

 

[Mito]

Just buy non-enriched rich.

I like California white jasmine rice.