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haidut

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Ray has written about the detrimental effects of serotonin on bone health and how serotonin antagonist could be a potential treatment for osteoporosis. This study confirms Ray's points and shows that drug Prozac (and possible other SSRIs) causes irreversible bone loss.


Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors During Lactation Tied to Bone Loss in Mice

"...Use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) during lactation was associated with excessive, irreversible bone resorption in mice, according to the results of a new study. Laura L. Hernandez, PhD, associate professor of dairy science and an expert in lactation biology and milk synthesis at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, also noted that high doses of folic acid appeared to reduce bone loss by limiting serotonin's action on the mammary gland."

As you can see, the study also found that high doses folic acid acted like serotonin antagonist in the breast and inhibited the bone loss process. While folic acid in pregnant or nursing women is certainly not a bad idea, high dose folic acid for other adults may be dangerous. Something like glycine and/or aspirin would be much better.
Low-dose Glycine As A Treatment For Menopause, Osteoporosis, Obesity
Aspirin as a "novel" drug against osteoporosis
 

Tarmander

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Apr 30, 2015
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I did not know that folic acid acted as a serotonin antagonist. I have heard of the detriments of taking high doses of Folic acid and how it might be carcinogenic. However, would methylfolate be all that much better given that it increases methylation quite strongly?
 

Tarmander

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@Tarmander I take methylfolate. This makes me re-think my decision.

Peat has spoken about the bad parts of increasing methylation, but perhaps the lower of serotonin would make up for it? I do not know, which was why I was asking. Could be the benefits outweigh the costs
 

aguilaroja

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Ray has written about the detrimental effects of serotonin on bone health and how serotonin antagonist could be a potential treatment for osteoporosis. This study confirms Ray's points and shows that drug Prozac (and possible other SSRIs) causes irreversible bone loss.
Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors During Lactation Tied to Bone Loss in Mice
...

A recent article found association of elevated blood serotonin with both bone loss and Type 2 Diabetes:

Constitutively Elevated Blood Serotonin Is Associated with Bone Loss and Type 2 Diabetes in Rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Constitutively Elevated Blood Serotonin Is Associated with Bone Loss and Type 2 Diabetes in Rats.
Erjavec I, Bordukalo-Niksic T, Brkljacic J, Grcevic D2, Mokrovic G, Kesic M, Rogic D, Zavadoski W, Paralkar VM, Grgurevic L, Trkulja V, Cicin-Sain L, Vukicevic S.
PLoS One. 2016 Feb 23;11(2):e0150102. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0150102. eCollection 2016.
"constitutively elevated PSL [platelet 5HT level] is associated with bone loss and T2D [type 2 diabetes] via a homeostatic interplay between the peripheral 5HT, bone and insulin."

And evidence suggests "supplementing" with the serotonin precursor 5-Hydroxy-Tryptophan carries a similar bone loss risk. (The 2013 study was also done by the Weaver/Hernandez group):

Oral administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan aggravated periodontitis-induced alveolar bone loss in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Oral administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan aggravated periodontitis-induced alveolar bone loss in rats.
Li X, Wu X, Ma Y, Hao Z, Chen S, Fu T, Chen H, Wang H.
Arch Oral Biol. 2015 May;60(5):789-98. doi: 10.1016/j.archoralbio.2015.01.015.
"5-HTP significantly increased serum serotonin levels. In rats with experimental periodontitis, 5-HTP increased alveolar bone resorption and worsened the micro-structural destruction of the alveolar bone. 5-HTP also stimulated osteoclastogenesis...."

Feeding 5-hydroxy-l-tryptophan during the transition from pregnancy to lactation increases calcium mobilization from bone in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Feeding 5-hydroxy-l-tryptophan during the transition from pregnancy to lactation increases calcium mobilization from bone in rats.
Laporta J, Peters TL, Weaver SR, Merriman KE, Hernandez LL.
Domest Anim Endocrinol. 2013 May;44(4):176-84. doi: 10.1016/j.domaniend.2013.01.005.
"...results show that increasing 5-HT biosynthesis during the transition from pregnancy to lactation could be a potential therapeutic target to explore for prevention of subclinical and clinical hypocalcemia."
 

haidut

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A recent article found association of elevated blood serotonin with both bone loss and Type 2 Diabetes:

Constitutively Elevated Blood Serotonin Is Associated with Bone Loss and Type 2 Diabetes in Rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Constitutively Elevated Blood Serotonin Is Associated with Bone Loss and Type 2 Diabetes in Rats.
Erjavec I, Bordukalo-Niksic T, Brkljacic J, Grcevic D2, Mokrovic G, Kesic M, Rogic D, Zavadoski W, Paralkar VM, Grgurevic L, Trkulja V, Cicin-Sain L, Vukicevic S.
PLoS One. 2016 Feb 23;11(2):e0150102. doi: 10.1371/journal.pone.0150102. eCollection 2016.
"constitutively elevated PSL [platelet 5HT level] is associated with bone loss and T2D [type 2 diabetes] via a homeostatic interplay between the peripheral 5HT, bone and insulin."

And evidence suggests "supplementing" with the serotonin precursor 5-Hydroxy-Tryptophan carries a similar bone loss risk. (The 2013 study was also done by the Weaver/Hernandez group):

Oral administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan aggravated periodontitis-induced alveolar bone loss in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Oral administration of 5-hydroxytryptophan aggravated periodontitis-induced alveolar bone loss in rats.
Li X, Wu X, Ma Y, Hao Z, Chen S, Fu T, Chen H, Wang H.
Arch Oral Biol. 2015 May;60(5):789-98. doi: 10.1016/j.archoralbio.2015.01.015.
"5-HTP significantly increased serum serotonin levels. In rats with experimental periodontitis, 5-HTP increased alveolar bone resorption and worsened the micro-structural destruction of the alveolar bone. 5-HTP also stimulated osteoclastogenesis...."

Feeding 5-hydroxy-l-tryptophan during the transition from pregnancy to lactation increases calcium mobilization from bone in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
Feeding 5-hydroxy-l-tryptophan during the transition from pregnancy to lactation increases calcium mobilization from bone in rats.
Laporta J, Peters TL, Weaver SR, Merriman KE, Hernandez LL.
Domest Anim Endocrinol. 2013 May;44(4):176-84. doi: 10.1016/j.domaniend.2013.01.005.
"...results show that increasing 5-HT biosynthesis during the transition from pregnancy to lactation could be a potential therapeutic target to explore for prevention of subclinical and clinical hypocalcemia."

This is pretty good. Especially the part about 5-HTP. It seems Ray was also right about dietary tryptophan being dangerous, but I wonder if ingested as part of decent protein meal the BCAA in it would not block tryptophan absorption and thus eliminate this effect. Ray wrote about dietary protein increasing bone mass despite dieticians warning of acidity from protein will do the opposite. I also wonder if taking some extra BCAA/gelatin with the protein would make it better for the bone by displacing even more tryptophan.
 

haidut

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haidut

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i dont understand why authors of the study call it "irreversible"!

Because, according to mainstream medicine many conditions are irreversible/incurable. Ask @Blossom who probably hears these qualifications every day at work.
 

aguilaroja

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...This study confirms Ray's points and shows that drug Prozac (and possible other SSRIs) causes irreversible bone loss.

Here are some more studies and reviews discussing SSRI's association with reduced bone mass, all with human subjects. It is tempting to say something like "A nutrient with this evidence would receive greater warnings" or "I have not heard of any prescribers mentioning this risk". But that would be piling on.

Osteoporosis in patients taking selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors: a focus on fracture outcome. - PubMed - NCBI
"The association between SSRIs use and fracture risk could potentially differ depending on dose, exposure duration, time of exposure, age, or sex. However, the risk of fracture declined rapidly after discontinuation of use of SSRIs. The evidence now seems sufficient to consider adding SSRIs to the list of medications that contribute to osteoporosis."

Effects of Depression and Serotonergic Antidepressants on Bone: Mechanisms and Implications for the Treatment of Depression. - PubMed - NCBI
Effects of Depression and Serotonergic Antidepressants on Bone: Mechanisms and Implications for the Treatment of Depression.
Fernandes BS1,2, Hodge JM3,4, Pasco JA1,5, Berk M1,6, Williams LJ7.
Drugs Aging. 2016 Jan;33(1):21-5. doi: 10.1007/s40266-015-0323-4.
"Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), first-line agents in the pharmacological treatment of mood and anxiety disorders, have also been shown to negatively affect bone metabolism."

Evaluation of the effect of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors on bone mineral density: an observational cross-sectional study. - PubMed - NCBI
"SSRI therapy in GAD was found to be related with decreased BMD values."

Use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and bone mass in adolescents: An NHANES study. - PubMed - NCBI
"In this NHANES study, adolescents treated with SSRIs had lower DXA measurements of the total femur and lumbar spine compared to SSRI non-users."

SSRI use and risk of fractures among perimenopausal women without mental disorders. - PubMed - NCBI
"SSRIs appear to increase fracture risk among middle-aged women without psychiatric disorders, an effect sustained over time, suggesting that shorter duration of treatment may decrease fracture risk."

Use of SSRIs may Impact Bone Density in Adolescent and Young Women with Anorexia Nervosa. - PubMed - NCBI
"Duration of SSRI use, duration since AN[anorexia nervosa] diagnosis and duration of amenorrhea inversely predicted BMD [bone mineral density]"

Antidepressant medications and osteoporosis. - PubMed - NCBI
"...there is a dose-response relationship for SSRIs, the effect does not appear to be homogeneous across the whole class of drugs.... The increase in risk is the greatest in the early stages of treatment, with a dramatic increase after initiation...."

Association of low bone mineral density with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor use by older men. - PubMed - NCBI
Arch Intern Med. 2007 Jun 25;167(12):1246-51.
Association of low bone mineral density with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor use by older men.
"BMD [bone mineral density] was lower among those reporting current SSRI use, but not among users of other antidepressants."

Adherence to treatment with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and the risk for fractures and bone loss: a population-based cohort study. - PubMed - NCBI
"Exposure to SSRI treatment is associated with an increased risk of bone loss-related events."

Calcaneal bone mineral density in young adults prescribed selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors. - PubMed - NCBI
"...a significant negative correlation was observed between the duration of SSRI use and bone mineral density."

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and the risk of osseointegrated implant failure: a cohort study. - PubMed - NCBI
"...treatment with SSRIs is associated with an increased failure risk of osseointegrated implants, which might suggest a careful surgical treatment planning for SSRI users."

Effects of Depression and Serotonergic Antidepressants on Bone: Mechanisms and Implications for the Treatment of Depression. - PubMed - NCBI
"Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), first-line agents in the pharmacological treatment of mood and anxiety disorders, have also been shown to negatively affect bone metabolism. SSRIs are the most prescribed antidepressants worldwide and a large number of persons at risk of developing osteoporosis, including older patients, will receive these antidepressants."

Use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and risk of fracture: a systematic review and meta-analysis. - PubMed - NCBI
"Fracture risk associated with SSRI use may have a significant clinical impact. Clinicians should carefully consider bone mineral density screening before prescribing SSRIs and proper management for high-risk populations."

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor treatment and risk of fractures: a meta-analysis of cohort and case-control studies. - PubMed - NCBI
"Use of SSRIs is associated with increased risk of fracture. The SSRIs may exert an increased risk of fracture independent of depression and bone mineral density."

Effect of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors on the risk of fracture. - PubMed - NCBI
"Daily SSRI use in adults 50 years and older remained associated with a 2-fold increased risk of clinical fragility fracture after adjustment for potential covariates"

Longitudinal examination of the skeletal effects of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors and risperidone in boys. - PubMed - NCBI
"Chronic SSRI treatment in children and adolescents is associated with reduced, albeit stable, bone mass for age..."

Selective serotonin reuptake inhibiting antidepressants are associated with an increased risk of nonvertebral fractures. - PubMed - NCBI
"Not only users of TCAs but also of SSRIs have a significantly increased risk of nonvertebral fractures, in SSRI users especially after prolonged use. Despite fewer early adverse effects of SSRIs, physicians treating elderly depressive patients should be aware of the unfavorable long-term consequence of SSRIs on fracture risk."

A cross-sectional evaluation of the effect of risperidone and selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors on bone mineral density in boys. - PubMed - NCBI
"...treatment with selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) to be associated with lower trabecular BMD at the radius (P = .03) and BMD z score at the lumbar spine (P < .05). These findings became more marked when the analysis was restricted to non-Hispanic white patients."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18301122
"After controlling for age, weight, height and smoking history, BMD among SSRI users was 5.6% lower at the femoral neck (P=0.03), 6.2% lower at the trochanter (P=0.04) and 4.4% lower at the mid-forearm (P=0.03) than nonusers."
 

walterex

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Jul 7, 2014
Messages
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Ray has written about the detrimental effects of serotonin on bone health and how serotonin antagonist could be a potential treatment for osteoporosis. This study confirms Ray's points and shows that drug Prozac (and possible other SSRIs) causes irreversible bone loss.


Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors During Lactation Tied to Bone Loss in Mice

"...Use of selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) during lactation was associated with excessive, irreversible bone resorption in mice, according to the results of a new study. Laura L. Hernandez, PhD, associate professor of dairy science and an expert in lactation biology and milk synthesis at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, also noted that high doses of folic acid appeared to reduce bone loss by limiting serotonin's action on the mammary gland."

As you can see, the study also found that high doses folic acid acted like serotonin antagonist in the breast and inhibited the bone loss process. While folic acid in pregnant or nursing women is certainly not a bad idea, high dose folic acid for other adults may be dangerous. Something like glycine and/or aspirin would be much better.
Low-dose Glycine As A Treatment For Menopause, Osteoporosis, Obesity
Aspirin as a "novel" drug against osteoporosis
 

walterex

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Jul 7, 2014
Messages
12
hi Haidut, trolling info. in regard to alkaline phosphatase mine remains high ( 368 range 35-110 ) after PC treatment (now 100% Peat ) I've read that aspirin spikes it ( I am taking about 5 grams a day, have been for nearly 5 years )
all other bloods are good, any info. would be appreciated. NO MORE ONCOLOGISTS, I listen to your interviews over and over never heard you mention AP
thanks
Walter
 

haidut

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hi Haidut, trolling info. in regard to alkaline phosphatase mine remains high ( 368 range 35-110 ) after PC treatment (now 100% Peat ) I've read that aspirin spikes it ( I am taking about 5 grams a day, have been for nearly 5 years )
all other bloods are good, any info. would be appreciated. NO MORE ONCOLOGISTS, I listen to your interviews over and over never heard you mention AP
thanks
Walter

Elevated PTH may contribute to elevated ALP. I'd test PTH and if it is above 40 then increasing vitamin D and calcium levels may help lower it. PTH and serotonin have a well-known connection so anti-serotonin chemicals may help lower it. Famotidine, an OTC anti-acid drug with anti-serotonin properties, has been shown in some studies to lower PTH.
 
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