Spinal Disc Problems

[squanch]

I've had some problems with lower back pain for a few weeks now, probably caused by bad form during weightlifting. I've also had a tingling sensation (mainly in my arms and legs, but sometimes also all over my body) and some slight numbness in my fingers.
It looks like some sort of damage to my spinal disc, maybe a herniated disc. Although the typical symptoms of a herniated disc would be tingling in only one leg or arm from what I've read online?
I wasn't able to get a doctors appointment until next week. Maybe someone has any tips until then on how to speed up recovery. I've stopped lifting weights for now and try not to sit for long periods of time, because it worsens the pain. Would topical DMSO help, or does it just suppress the pain? What about aspirin? Larger amounts of gelatin?

edit: Does anyone have any experience with chiropractic treatment for things like this?

 

[Herbie]

I've had some problems with lower back pain for a few weeks now, probably caused by bad form during weightlifting. I've also had a tingling sensation (mainly in my arms and legs, but sometimes also all over my body) and some slight numbness in my fingers.
It looks like some sort of damage to my spinal disc, maybe a herniated disc. Although the typical symptoms of a herniated disc would be tingling in only one leg or arm from what I've read online?
I wasn't able to get a doctors appointment until next week. Maybe someone has any tips until then on how to speed up recovery. I've stopped lifting weights for now and try not to sit for long periods of time, because it worsens the pain. Would topical DMSO help, or does it just suppress the pain? What about aspirin? Larger amounts of gelatin?

edit: Does anyone have any experience with chiropractic treatment for things like this?

I have 2 herniated discs and have experience with chiropractors, osteopaths, physical therapists and I am a Personal Trainer who has a specially in back pain.

The nerves for arms run through the cervical spine which is located in the neck area and the nerves run down the shoulders in the arms. Its difficult to tell from here exactly whats happening but i do know of a way of unloading disc pressure and that is lay on a bed and get someone to pull on your legs gently keeping your body in horizontal position for a few minutes, enough to not pull you off the bed. position yourself with your legs hanging off the bed with your butt still on the bed if you get my drift. this can release disc pressure and results are immediate if thats what is going on with you.

I used to eat no diary, low carb, low nutritional diet for a few years which lead to atrophy in the lower back muscles and glute muscles which left my lumber spine venerable and open and weak plus having gut inflammation which dragged my head, shoulders and chest downward which lead to the herniations.

After increasing carbohydrates, dairy and vitamins and minerals and lowering inflammation from Rays ideas my muscles have returned and inflammation has resided and my back pain no longer exists. my posture has improved dramatically just by my diet.

As for chiropractors, the ones I went to further injured my back, they are too aggressive.

As for Osteopaths I have had good experience with them as they are not as aggressive and have a deeper understanding of human bio mechanics.

Physical therapists weren't much help in my case.

When nerves get impinged or compressed they become inflamed so any anti inflammatory will help.

you may have only bulged a disc and not ruptured it (herniated) hopefully because they can naturally go back into place and be fine.

I would take it easy and rest until you feel better and figure out whats happening.

The tingling sounds like nerve impingement or compression but I don't know.

Also the lumber and cervical spine have an inverse relationship so if there is an issue in either one chances are there is an issue with both which need to be addressed

Hope this helps.

 

[Velve921]

I've had some problems with lower back pain for a few weeks now, probably caused by bad form during weightlifting. I've also had a tingling sensation (mainly in my arms and legs, but sometimes also all over my body) and some slight numbness in my fingers.
It looks like some sort of damage to my spinal disc, maybe a herniated disc. Although the typical symptoms of a herniated disc would be tingling in only one leg or arm from what I've read online?
I wasn't able to get a doctors appointment until next week. Maybe someone has any tips until then on how to speed up recovery. I've stopped lifting weights for now and try not to sit for long periods of time, because it worsens the pain. Would topical DMSO help, or does it just suppress the pain? What about aspirin? Larger amounts of gelatin?

edit: Does anyone have any experience with chiropractic treatment for things like this?

I've had disc issues as well. There are many movements I've used but I think in the mean time for discomfort I would consider Epsom salt baths for the pain and inflammation. When I've had a flare up I'll do 2 baths a day with 1-4 lbs until pain is gone.

 

[HealthisWealth]

A decage ago i really bad lower back pain. The pain from lower back radiates to the heel of the foot. Someday its the left side and following day it will be the right side. Calf muscle are too stiff like its frozen. Everyday its like stiffness its hard to walk because its not really pain its more of an annoyance. The stiffness relaxes when i lie down. I think it started when i put my wallet at the back pocket. Went to a orthopedic surgeon and requested an MRI. The result was herniated disk, degeneration somethng so went back to he orthopedic surgeon and gave me exercise to be done with a physical therapist. Went for therapy problem still no ok. Find second opinion from another orthopedic doctor and he wants to operate so i refuse. Muscle relaxant tabs did not ease the discomfort its just a waste of money. It went on for years until i figured out by accident how to treat it.

When i was out town, preparing to sleep. I wash my hair to take of the styling wax on the bathroom sink. So my position was like standing but bowing my head from the waist and straight leg. For 5 mintues of washing my hair i felt why their no tighness at my back and especially my calf. So after rising my hair i kept on doing the that position like im going to touch the floor but not totally. So from then on i research exercise and the best was deadlift. In just a few weeks im almost pain free all because of deadlift.

So if someone undergoing some kind of back pain just refuse operation. Maybe people with bad accidents can do operation but should be the last resort.

@squanch

Maybe you try chiropractors or accupunture. I think accupucnture is effective with nerves and muscles.

Its better if you can find a practitioner who practices both profession.

 

[squanch]

Thanks for all the help so far.
I will try the suggestions and see what helps. Hopefully the doctor can tell me more next week, I'll try to get an MRI if possible.
When I know more, I'll post it here.

I would definitely like to avoid surgery, will probably try osteopaths or chiropractors before that.

 

[Herbie]

I worked with a mechanic with the same injury as me and he got the surgery and he said do not do it. The guy could hardly walk and was in agony to just get in and out of a chair and was doing a office position at the time.

Ray mentioned in a podcast that horses who had ruptured discs would fully recover in weeks i think it was gelatin or vitamins which fixed it but I cannot remember for sure.

I was on a waiting list to see a surgeon for a year and within that year I had fixed everything up myself and I went to see the surgeon anyway and they tested all my nerves and reflexes and said they were perfect but I had nerve compression when I got the scans done previously.

There are enough resources to mend these injuries without ever going near the chopping block.

 

[aquaman]

Search for "Ray peat water nerves" or equivalent on google. I'm out so can't look properly at moment

There's an article where Ray explains how low Thyroid (from memory) increases water leading to swelling of the nerves/the sheaths that hold the nerves, and to arm and leg pains.

 

[squanch]

I worked with a mechanic with the same injury as me and he got the surgery and he said do not do it. The guy could hardly walk and was in agony to just get in and out of a chair and was doing a office position at the time.

I've heard the same thing from a coworker. Definitely only a last resort for me.

Search for "Ray peat water nerves" or equivalent on google. I'm out so can't look properly at moment

There's an article where Ray explains how low Thyroid (from memory) increases water leading to swelling of the nerves/the sheaths that hold the nerves, and to arm and leg pains.

I think I've found it: Water: swelling, tension, pain, fatigue, aging
It has been getting considerably colder here since I injured myself. Maybe I should increase the NDT and salt intake a bit to help with recovery.

 

[tara]

Some thoughts based on experience from before I'd come across Peat...

I've had lower spine disc prolapse at least once, and a another time that may have been short of full prolapse but was still quite limiting for several months. In each case, they made life uncomfortable and difficult for a few months, then fixed themselves. Most such injuries resolve themselves without extreme treatments. A small proportion need surgery or other major intervention if they don't sort themselves out, but most don't, and there are costs and risks associated with surgery.

I had pain and sometimes tingling down leg all the way to the foot.
Numbness is not good. If the pressure on the nerves is too strong and/or too long-lasting it can cause long term damage. Mine came right. I know at least one person who has areas of numbness in extremities long after the disc and associated pain recovered.

Avoid positions that aggravate it, especially for extended periods.
For me, that meant avoiding sitting as much as possible, avoiding forward bends as much as possible, and also lying down to rest frequently when it was at it's worst (but also going for short walk regularly to keep it moving).
Avoid lifting heavy loads for a while - not just 'weight-lifting', but any heavy loads.
Keep moving - bed rest is only useful for a very short time when it's extreme (eg one day when you actually can't move). For me, walking was helpful.

Be very cautious about letting chiropractors etc manipulate or twist - they risk more damage if not very careful.

Robin McKenzie wrote a book Treat Your Own Back - he said it would work for about 80% of people. Involves taking positions that apply corrective pressure to a bulging disc.
There are some yoga postures that can be helpful. And others to avoid, depending on where the damage is.
When lifting anything be very vigilant about not twisting at the same time. Point feet towards load (even quite small loads, not just your weightlifting type weights).
Some people get relief from extension - eg inversion tables. I had a yoga teacher who would get me to hang upside down from a loop of rope in just the right position. Someone I know would hang in a door frame whenever he got locked up.

It is common for them to feel worse in the morning as the discs tend to swell at night.

Knowing what I know now, I'd probably eat more gelatine, apply red light to the area, maybe apply progesterone topically, as well as try for full nutrition.

Good luck.

 

[Regina]

Some thoughts based on experience from before I'd come across Peat...

I've had lower spine disc prolapse at least once, and a another time that may have been short of full prolapse but was still quite limiting for several months. In each case, they made life uncomfortable and difficult for a few months, then fixed themselves. Most such injuries resolve themselves without extreme treatments. A small proportion need surgery or other major intervention if they don't sort themselves out, but most don't, and there are costs and risks associated with surgery.

I had pain and sometimes tingling down leg all the way to the foot.
Numbness is not good. If the pressure on the nerves is too strong and/or too long-lasting it can cause long term damage. Mine came right. I know at least one person who has areas of numbness in extremities long after the disc and associated pain recovered.

Avoid positions that aggravate it, especially for extended periods.
For me, that meant avoiding sitting as much as possible, avoiding forward bends as much as possible, and also lying down to rest frequently when it was at it's worst (but also going for short walk regularly to keep it moving).
Avoid lifting heavy loads for a while - not just 'weight-lifting', but any heavy loads.
Keep moving - bed rest is only useful for a very short time when it's extreme (eg one day when you actually can't move). For me, walking was helpful.

Be very cautious about letting chiropractors etc manipulate or twist - they risk more damage if not very careful.

Robin McKenzie wrote a book Treat Your Own Back - he said it would work for about 80% of people. Involves taking positions that apply corrective pressure to a bulging disc.
There are some yoga postures that can be helpful. And others to avoid, depending on where the damage is.
When lifting anything be very vigilant about not twisting at the same time. Point feet towards load (even quite small loads, not just your weightlifting type weights).
Some people get relief from extension - eg inversion tables. I had a yoga teacher who would get me to hang upside down from a loop of rope in just the right position. Someone I know would hang in a door frame whenever he got locked up.

It is common for them to feel worse in the morning as the discs tend to swell at night.

Knowing what I know now, I'd probably eat more gelatine, apply red light to the area, maybe apply progesterone topically, as well as try for full nutrition.

Good luck.

I used to be so prone to injuries. My teacher would sometimes yell out after bowing in, "Don't break Regina."
For me, Vitamin K2 in the form of Kuinone has been a complete game-changer. Numerous places along the spine have been debilitating: cervical, thoracic and sacroiliac; frozen shoulders, wrist sprains, taped fingers and toes, and chronic elbow joint pain. It just all resolved with the K2.

 

[squanch]

@tara most of the things you mentioned are definitely the same for me:
A lot worse when sitting or standing for long periods of time, very bad in the morning after waking up, the pain almost completely goes away after walking for 30min to 60min, that annoying tingling feeling (like ants walking over your body)...
I do feel like one leg is somehow longer than the other now though since the pain in my back started. My right leg and hip fatigue a lot faster than the left one now and it feels like all weight rests on this side somehow. That's one of the reasons why I mentioned the chiropractor, it really feels like something is twisted or misaligned if that makes sense.

@Regina thanks, I still take around 2mg of k2 per day, but I'll up the dose to see if it helps.

 

[NathanK]

I do feel like one leg is somehow longer than the other now though since the pain in my back started. My right leg and hip fatigue a lot faster than the left one now and it feels like all weight rests on this side somehow.

Ditto. There is some form of imbalance. The injury can cause a tightening of the fascia that "shortens" surrounding muscles. Ive found using a foam roller along the legs and hips delivers a lot of relief to that "shorter leg" feeling and fatigue. If I let the discomfort go for too long then I can get a mild limp or even excessive hip pain to the point where it is hard to walk. I play a lot of sports which easily exacerbates symptoms.

Another great thing you can try is trigger point therapy (like a lacross ball or jacknobber), but do not use directly on the spine. In my case it only inflammed and made the problems worse. Around the injury T.P.T is excellent for calming the spinal injury byproduct microspasms causing ancillary pain.

Since 2011 when i first had pain, Ive seen multiple chiropractors, acupunturists, Airrosti and A.R.T. practitioners, and medical doctors with little to show for it. My family docs werent very concerned with addressing my back, but after i lost sensation in my lower left leg a month ago, he ordered an MRI.

Yesterday i had the MRI on my lumbar and today I found out that I had impingements, 2 herniated disks, degenerative disk disease (which is neither necessarily a disease or degenerative in the common sense of the words), and whatever related conditions.

We will see where it goes. I read Narouz and others in threads saying the cause is from endotoxin/ bacteria. I 100% can say i felt the moment when my back pain occurred under 8 plate loaded bar trying to work through a strained groin and not from spontaneous endotoxin. I think that is possible in more longer term degenerative conditions.

I think it was @burtlancast who mentioned prolotherapy/seawater injections in another thread. They commonly use a saline solution or fish oil to inject into the injured site. I had that performed for almost 3 months with one of the top Prolo docs in the country after shoulder surgery 8 years ago. It helped to make the area around the injury feel "tighter" and was a relief, but i can say that it was not long lasting and therefore not a permanent solution for me.

 

[squanch]

Little update:
I went to an osteopath/chiropractor for 3 appointments. It did help somewhat, especially with my one leg feeling longer than the other. Like @NathanK, he also said it was caused by shortening/contracting of the muscle due to a spinal injury.
The pain didn't really get better though and after a few days one leg felt longer again.

I stopped all weightlifting for 2 months, hoping it would help. The tingling feeling stopped, but the pain was still there not getting any better at all.

It was only after I started weightlifting again (with very low weights and slow, perfect form) that the pain actually improved greatly within 1-2 weeks. I also put a small pillow on my lower back when sitting for longer periods of time.
Almost pain free right now. Still going easy on the squats / deadlifts though.

Good luck Nathan, hope you can get it under control.

 

[NathanK]

Little update:
I went to an osteopath/chiropractor for 3 appointments. It did help somewhat, especially with my one leg feeling longer than the other. Like @NathanK, he also said it was caused by shortening/contracting of the muscle due to a spinal injury.
The pain didn't really get better though and after a few days one leg felt longer again.

I stopped all weightlifting for 2 months, hoping it would help. The tingling feeling stopped, but the pain was still there not getting any better at all.

It was only after I started weightlifting again (with very low weights and slow, perfect form) that the pain actually improved greatly within 1-2 weeks. I also put a small pillow on my lower back when sitting for longer periods of time.
Almost pain free right now. Still going easy on the squats / deadlifts though.

Good luck Nathan, hope you can get it under control.

Yeah man, thanks for the update. Im at the point where I dont think there is much of a cure necessarily, but its all about mitigating pain and staying away from triggers. Proper form, rolling, rest, and stretching will be big going forward. Im not the biggest fan of spinal manipulation on an injured spine because of the aggressiveness. Chiropractors never really helped anyway. I have my MRI follow up appt with a neurologist next week.

 

[HLP]

Foundation Training might be worth a try. I don't think they will do prolo for back issues. I had my knees done and it really fixed them up nicely.