Spinach Contains A Performance-Enhancing Chemical

[Literally]

Spinach Contains A Performance-Enhancing Chemical

It's "ecdysterone"

Why am I linking to this random cooking website? Well that's where I saw the news lol.
More importantly has anybody tried this?

 

[ken]

I'll have six pounds of spinach and a donut tower please.

 

[Literally]

Once they ban the supplement, bodybuilders will start turning slightly green lol.

Apparently there may be a decent effect from broccoli, cauliflower and parsley too... something about mTor inhibition or something.

 

[ShotTrue]

"they have recently discovered that ecdysterone, a steroid-like chemical found in spinach is in fact performance-enhancing. DW has reported that after conducting a 10 week strength training program with forty-six athletes, researchers found that "those taking the supplement saw their physical strength increase three times as much as their placebo-taking counterparts." As a result, researchers concluded that ecdysterone should been classified as a banned substance on the World Anti-Doping Authority (WADA) list. Sounds pretty understandable to me."
That sounds significant...

 

[Literally]

Yeah the stuff is on Amazon, I am thinking about buying a bottle since I am getting back into consistent lifting after a long time of not really doing that. Would love to know if anyone has insight on this supplement.

 

[haidut]

Spinach Contains A Performance-Enhancing Chemical

It's "ecdysterone"

Why am I linking to this random cooking website? Well that's where I saw the news lol.
More importantly has anybody tried this?

The ecdysterones are estrogenic. The same team who did this study has been publishing on ecdysterone for several years and I have been tracking their work. They also have studies that ecdysterone caused liver enlargement even in low doses, which they thought was quite worrying. I guess if a person is after an Olympic gold medal they will probably consider it acceptable risk to dope with this chemical for a few months, but I am not sure this should be a go-to tool for health-conscious people.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/06/27/685230.full.pdf
"...Contrary to the effect of AASs, it appears that the effect of ecdysterone is mediated by an activation of estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta) [1,21-23]. A few studies reported a performance enhancing effect in animals, but only recently a controlled administration trial in humans showed significant performance enhancement in resistance training [24]. Thus, the administration of ecdysterone may be considered as a practice that leads to an unfair advantage in sports competitions and may therefore be considered as doping. Indeed, ecdysterone was already suspected to be used by Olympic athletes since the 1980s and was also called a “Russian secret” [11,19,20,24-26]."

Btw, a progesterone/DHEA combination in a 1:1 up to 3:1 ratio will probably blow out ecdysterone out of the water in terms of both strength and muscle growth. Considering that the "anabolic" effect of steroids is simply blockage of cortisol's catabolic effects, and the fact that both progesterone/DHEA are the most potent anticatabolic endogenous agents, for somebody whose target is health as well as anabolism the progesterone/DHEA is the way to go. Dangerous growth triggered through activation of ER can lead to serious issues (proliferative disorders) down the line.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/structural-requirements-for-an-optimal-anti-catabolic-steroid.20108/

Finally, the ecdysteroids have been shown to be devoid of an innate anabolic effect. They only work in intact (non-castrated) animals, so consequently their effect is dependent on how much endogenous anabolic steroids an organism produces. If the organism is hypothyroid or hypogonadal, there won't be much of an effect. This matches well with their anabolism being through ER. Chemicals that are agonists on ER are known to have hypertrophic effects when combined with legit anabolic steroids but are devoid of such properties when used on their own.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/80769266.pdf
"...Comparing the effect of ecdysteroids and anabolic-androgenic steroids it has been reported [25] that an androgen dependent development is a prerequisite before the action of ecdysteroids in rat. 20-Hydroxyecdysone (6) in 0.5 mg/100 g dose for 7 days resulted in increased weight gain of the whole body, liver, heart, kidneys and musculus tibialis anterior in rats. The accumulation of protein content was also accelerated. These changes were even more pronounced if the animals were still growing (70-80 g). In sexually immature castrated rats the androgenic action of 20- hydroxyecdysone (6) was not demonstrable in contrast to that of methandrostenolone (36). Twenty-four years later an extensive comparative study was presented in English using a number of purified ecdysteroids including turkesterone (18), 20- hydroxyecdysone (6) and methandrostenolone (36) [26]. An early report [27] also implied the difference between the mechanisms of actions of ecdysteroids and anabolic steroids. 20- Hydroxyecdysone (6), turkesterone (18) and 2-deoxyecdysone (13) in the same (0.5 mg/100 g) dose were found to stimulate protein synthesis in the liver of laboratory mice. The protein synthesis increasing ability was associated with polyribosomal activity. The preliminary administration of actinomycin D did not prevent the phytoecdysteroid effect on protein synthesis stimulation. Therefore it has been concluded that the anabolic effect of ecdysteroids is connected with the acceleration of translocation processes instead of the induction of new RNA synthesis. This shows that ecdysteroids are not likely to act as the classical steroids, via cytoplasmic receptor and regulation of gene transcriptional activity."

 

[Literally]

Thank you @haidut.

 

[akgrrrl]

Thank you @haidut.

Ditto thanks.

 

[Opioidus]

Will eating one tea spoon of dried spinach that has been grinded into powder form give me an enlarged liver or kidney stones? I started taking it as soon as the news came out and it does wonders for my energy and anxiety.

 

[A.R]

The ecdysterones are estrogenic. The same team who did this study has been publishing on ecdysterone for several years and I have been tracking their work. They also have studies that ecdysterone caused liver enlargement even in low doses, which they thought was quite worrying. I guess if a person is after an Olympic gold medal they will probably consider it acceptable risk to dope with this chemical for a few months, but I am not sure this should be a go-to tool for health-conscious people.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/06/27/685230.full.pdf
"...Contrary to the effect of AASs, it appears that the effect of ecdysterone is mediated by an activation of estrogen receptor beta (ERbeta) [1,21-23]. A few studies reported a performance enhancing effect in animals, but only recently a controlled administration trial in humans showed significant performance enhancement in resistance training [24]. Thus, the administration of ecdysterone may be considered as a practice that leads to an unfair advantage in sports competitions and may therefore be considered as doping. Indeed, ecdysterone was already suspected to be used by Olympic athletes since the 1980s and was also called a “Russian secret” [11,19,20,24-26]."

Btw, a progesterone/DHEA combination in a 1:1 up to 3:1 ratio will probably blow out ecdysterone out of the water in terms of both strength and muscle growth. Considering that the "anabolic" effect of steroids is simply blockage of cortisol's catabolic effects, and the fact that both progesterone/DHEA are the most potent anticatabolic endogenous agents, for somebody whose target is health as well as anabolism the progesterone/DHEA is the way to go. Dangerous growth triggered through activation of ER can lead to serious issues (proliferative disorders) down the line.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/structural-requirements-for-an-optimal-anti-catabolic-steroid.20108/

Finally, the ecdysteroids have been shown to be devoid of an innate anabolic effect. They only work in intact (non-castrated) animals, so consequently their effect is dependent on how much endogenous anabolic steroids an organism produces. If the organism is hypothyroid or hypogonadal, there won't be much of an effect. This matches well with their anabolism being through ER. Chemicals that are agonists on ER are known to have hypertrophic effects when combined with legit anabolic steroids but are devoid of such properties when used on their own.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/80769266.pdf
"...Comparing the effect of ecdysteroids and anabolic-androgenic steroids it has been reported [25] that an androgen dependent development is a prerequisite before the action of ecdysteroids in rat. 20-Hydroxyecdysone (6) in 0.5 mg/100 g dose for 7 days resulted in increased weight gain of the whole body, liver, heart, kidneys and musculus tibialis anterior in rats. The accumulation of protein content was also accelerated. These changes were even more pronounced if the animals were still growing (70-80 g). In sexually immature castrated rats the androgenic action of 20- hydroxyecdysone (6) was not demonstrable in contrast to that of methandrostenolone (36). Twenty-four years later an extensive comparative study was presented in English using a number of purified ecdysteroids including turkesterone (18), 20- hydroxyecdysone (6) and methandrostenolone (36) [26]. An early report [27] also implied the difference between the mechanisms of actions of ecdysteroids and anabolic steroids. 20- Hydroxyecdysone (6), turkesterone (18) and 2-deoxyecdysone (13) in the same (0.5 mg/100 g) dose were found to stimulate protein synthesis in the liver of laboratory mice. The protein synthesis increasing ability was associated with polyribosomal activity. The preliminary administration of actinomycin D did not prevent the phytoecdysteroid effect on protein synthesis stimulation. Therefore it has been concluded that the anabolic effect of ecdysteroids is connected with the acceleration of translocation processes instead of the induction of new RNA synthesis. This shows that ecdysteroids are not likely to act as the classical steroids, via cytoplasmic receptor and regulation of gene transcriptional activity."

Excellent post as usual.

This is interesting. Does that mean, the cause for bodybuilders, who develop enlarged organs after years of AAS abuse, is because of the compounds converting to estrogen?

 

[rawmeat]

@haidut is a king. excellent.

 

[mangoes]

So Popeye was right all along

 

[BigChad]

@haidut Thanks for that info.
Outside of dhea and progesterone, and fat soluble vitamins, are there any other over the counter supplements that are worth using, which optimize hormones, lower cortisol, lower estrogen, lower prolactin, lower serotonin. And anything that increased mitochondria. So far i've found the quinones, thymoquinone, PQQ, CoQ10 and vitamin K2. I heard K2, PQQ and coq10 increase mitochondria through different mechanisms, so im thinking if it would be better to combine the 3 than to only use one of them. Im not sure of thymoquinones effects but its found in nigella sativa seeds and oil which are omega 3. Not sure if there are other quinones out there, and other supplements that would boost mitochondria besides these and b vitamins, selenium and t3.

 

[haidut]

Excellent post as usual.

This is interesting. Does that mean, the cause for bodybuilders, who develop enlarged organs after years of AAS abuse, is because of the compounds converting to estrogen?

Either converting to estrogen directly or increased estrogenic signalling for even some non-aromatizable ones. For example, trenbolone is a non-aromatizable steroids but its core is an "estrane" steroid (C18) instead of an androstane (C19) and as such it has inherent estrogenic effects in higher doses. It binds both ERalpha and ERbeta as agonist when used in concentrations above 2 uM/L. So, while it is a weaker "estrogen" than something like estradiol and can even have benefits for breast cancer by displacing estradiol (and suppressing its synthesis through pituitary suppression) it still does have receptor-level estrogenic effects in the doses used by bodybuilders. This probably explains the "mysterious" elevation of liver enzymes on high doses TREN even though non-17-alkylated steroids like TREN base are not supposed to have live toxicity. IMO all 19-nortestosterone (estrane) steroids have this risk so should be used in low doses only. For TREN, the 2 uM / L concentration cutoff seems to correspond to 25mg-30mg daily dose, and this coincides well with the reports on bodybuilding forums with people using 50mg+ TREN getting liver toxicity and even jaundice but lower doses being mostly without liver effects. Animal studies with TREN in HED of 3mg/kg (about 25mg-30mg for a decent size human male) actually showed protective effects on liver and heart while higher doses and testosterone were detrimental.
Trenbolone Improves Cardiometabolic Risk Factors and Myocardial Tolerance to Ischemia-Reperfusion in Male Rats With Testosterone-Deficient Metabolic Syndrome

Same goes for nandrolone, which actually also converts to estrogen quite easily so it is both estrogenic and an estrogen pro-hormone. As I mentioned in another thread, considering the benefits of 19-nortestosterone steroids lies mostly in their opposition of cortisol and the fact that most of them are progestins, then one might as all well use progesterone instead and stack with whatever other steroids the 19-nor steroids are usually stacked with. Progesterone may even protect from many of the side effects of those other stackables including liver damage, blood pressure, kidney damage, etc.
Just my 2c.

 

[haidut]

@haidut Thanks for that info.
Outside of dhea and progesterone, and fat soluble vitamins, are there any other over the counter supplements that are worth using, which optimize hormones, lower cortisol, lower estrogen, lower prolactin, lower serotonin. And anything that increased mitochondria. So far i've found the quinones, thymoquinone, PQQ, CoQ10 and vitamin K2. I heard K2, PQQ and coq10 increase mitochondria through different mechanisms, so im thinking if it would be better to combine the 3 than to only use one of them. Im not sure of thymoquinones effects but its found in nigella sativa seeds and oil which are omega 3. Not sure if there are other quinones out there, and other supplements that would boost mitochondria besides these and b vitamins, selenium and t3.

Anything that improves metabolism and/or increases mitochondria number/density should help with steroid synthesis. Of the quinones, vitamin K (MK-4) is probably best. T3 is great and low dose methylene blue is probably also good. There is no need to stack a ton of things especially if they work mostly on the same pathways. T3, MK-4 and some steroid precursors like P5, P4, and DHEA should be more than enough.

 

[BigChad]

Anything that improves metabolism and/or increases mitochondria number/density should help with steroid synthesis. Of the quinones, vitamin K (MK-4) is probably best. T3 is great and low dose methylene blue is probably also good. There is no need to stack a ton of things especially if they work mostly on the same pathways. T3, MK-4 and some steroid precursors like P5, P4, and DHEA should be more than enough.

DHEA is one that can convert to estrogen if you arent careful right, iirc the max you should go on that, is either 5mg a day, or 5mg three times a day, split far apart from each other?

I was told this regarding PQQ, Coq10 and K2:
Those three have similar effects ultimately, but act on three separate targets. K2 affects overall signalling, CoQ10 goes to the mitochondria, and PQQ targets cytosolic proteins; it's like three separate work stations for the same assembly line.
I have also heard that olive leaf extract can have beneficial effects on the mitochondria, and is sometimes advised for hypothyroid people as well as people with chronic fatigue syndrome, which maybe is just hypothyroidism in earlier stages.

 

[LeeLemonoil]

Karel Slama thinks Ecdysterone is rather a Vitamin D-type substance:

Ecdysteroids May Be A Form Of Vitamin D


This one is the most cautioning publication on Ecdysone. But that’s not B-Ecdysterone:
Ecdysone Elicits Chronic Renal Impairment via Mineralocorticoid-Like Pathogenic Activities. - PubMed - NCBI

Many promising publications about ecdysterones compiled here, most is eastern-European or Asian research, many effects seem interesting, modulating metabolic and immune parameters in a peaty way.
@Literally. Some other performance or muscle-enhancement natural substances are presented there too:


Plants And Insects As A Source Of Steroids


And:
Comparing The 6-Keto Anabolics Like Laxogenin - Mind And Muscle

 

[olive]

Unfortunately the oral bioavailability is poor. However injected it has potent anabolic effect. Those worried about it’s estrogenic effects shouldn’t be considering that although it mediates it’s effect via ERβ it induces specific gene expression. I know some bodybuilders who are using this intramuscularly via injection with good results. It won’t be long until WADA bans it.