Soy Isoflavones Have An Antiestrogenic Effect

belscb

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Any thoughts regarding this article?
Soy Isoflavones Have an Antiestrogenic Effect and Alter Mammary Promoter Hypermethylation in Healthy Premenopausal Women

Also here, which is where I found the article above:
The Truth About Soy and Man Boobs

...the phytoestrogens in soy have a very weak effect compared to normal human estrogen or estrogen from animal sources. These phytoestrogens compete for the same hormone receptors and so reduce the effect of normal estrogen which has a much more potent effect on the body. They act as what’s known as ‘competitive inhibitors’ of estrogen...​

Could it be that *small* doses of soy estrogen, such as those consumed in traditional Asian foods, might actually inhibit stronger forms of estrogen and thereby cause a net decrease in estrogenic activity?

To be fair to Ray Peat, most of the research done on this subject appears to have been done after 2009. This seems to be pretty new data we're talking about.
 

Makrosky

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Any thoughts regarding this article?
Soy Isoflavones Have an Antiestrogenic Effect and Alter Mammary Promoter Hypermethylation in Healthy Premenopausal Women

Also here, which is where I found the article above:
The Truth About Soy and Man Boobs

...the phytoestrogens in soy have a very weak effect compared to normal human estrogen or estrogen from animal sources. These phytoestrogens compete for the same hormone receptors and so reduce the effect of normal estrogen which has a much more potent effect on the body. They act as what’s known as ‘competitive inhibitors’ of estrogen...​

Could it be that *small* doses of soy estrogen, such as those consumed in traditional Asian foods, might actually inhibit stronger forms of estrogen and thereby cause a net decrease in estrogenic activity?

To be fair to Ray Peat, most of the research done on this subject appears to have been done after 2009. This seems to be pretty new data we're talking about.

Wow!!! Thanks for posting this. I don't know if it's true or not but your hypothesis sounds plausible.

Now that I think about it.... Maybe a lot of other estrogenic herbs/foods/things considered bad by Ray Peat and good by Mainstream medicine/naturopathic schools work in the same way, that is : they're indeed "estrogenic" but the net effect is a decrease or at least a much smaller increase while at the same time doing another good thing. I'm thinking about Resveratrol, for instance. It's considered estrogenic in Peat world.

It's always important to remember this : The fact that an exogenous molecule (ligand) coming from food, herbs, drugs, etc. is very similar to the endogenous molecule doesn't automatically mean they do the same. It's quite common that agonists to a receptor that change in their molecular structure sometimes by a single atom are effectively antagonists or they activate the receptor (and the cascade reaction) in a different way. It's not as simple as playing LEGO.
 
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Peater Piper

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Flaxseed is also frequently recommended because the lignans compete with natural estrogens. The thing about soy and flax is they're so insanely high in phytoestrogens compared to almost every other food that's been measured. Also, anyone that eats processed foods is likely being exposed to both of these, especially soy, which seems to be in almost everything.
 

tallglass13

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Plants do not and will never contain human hormones... I honestly believe this is propaganda against the consumption of soy... And I hope we understand that organic non genetically modified soy has been used by the Okinawa us for centuries, up to 12% of their diet... They have one of the longest life spans... The flavones are plant pigments, not hormones... Plants cannot contain human estrogen
 

PakPik

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Plants do not and will never contain human hormones... I honestly believe this is propaganda against the consumption of soy... And I hope we understand that organic non genetically modified soy has been used by the Okinawa us for centuries, up to 12% of their diet... They have one of the longest life spans... The flavones are plant pigments, not hormones... Plants cannot contain human estrogen
The concept of estrogenicity has to do with an estrogen-like action of a molecule upon cellular biochemistry. So, even if a molecule is quite different from human estrogen, it is deemed estrogenic if it ignites biochemical cascades similar to endogenous estrogen. Here are actual thermography pictures of precancerous breasts triggered by a short supplemental period of estrogenic herbs, foods and other compounds. Pretty telling Using Thermography to Monitor the Effect of Soy, Flax and Other Estrogenic Products | Dr. Kaayla Daniel
 

DaveFoster

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The whole idea is not that these substances behave like biological estrogen (E1, E2, E3), but that these hormones act as inflammatory mediators, much like serotonin.

You can break a statue a million ways, but you can only sculpt it perfectly in one.
 

YuraCZ

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Plants do not and will never contain human hormones... I honestly believe this is propaganda against the consumption of soy... And I hope we understand that organic non genetically modified soy has been used by the Okinawa us for centuries, up to 12% of their diet... They have one of the longest life spans... The flavones are plant pigments, not hormones... Plants cannot contain human estrogen
really?
Progesterone is the oldest steroid hormone—some 500 million years old on the evolutionary scale. All vertebrates produce progesterone, although it is only in higher vertebrates that this hormone is instrumental in the reproductive cycle. In lower vertebrates progesterone functions in relation to glucose metabolism, the development of intelligence and bone formation.
The process of producing natural progesterone, which is made from yams and soybeans, was discovered by Russell Marker, a Pennsylvania State College chemistry professor. While experimenting with sapogenins, a group of plant steroids, in the jungles of Mexico in the 1930s, Marker realized that progesterone could be transformed by chemical process from the sapogenin, diosgenin, which is found naturally, in yams.
Unlike medroxyprogesterone, natural micronized progesterone is an exact chemical duplicate of the progesterone that is produced by the human body.

Btw bioidentical testosterone is also made from yams.. Soy and flax are estrogenic as ****. But it looks like only in a good way(collagen productin etc.. but not cancers like from plastic or estrogen from aromatase...) Look at japanese. They look more estrogenic. Than androgenic african for example. They look younger, less body hair. But also less estrogenic cancers.. So I also think that, phytoestrogens are protective..
 

Elephanto

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There may be a strong genetic aspect to whether its effect is estrogenic or antiestrogenic. I once read in a study (wish I could find it again) that soy and green tea which were both protective in japan against prostate cancer, had an opposite effect on a population of tropical asians. Sadly I can't find relevant studies done on caucasians.

It may also have anti-cancer mechanisms despite being estrogenic (think milk thistle), for example it greatly reduces the Epidermal Growth Factor receptor in women with breast cancer that had lifetime soy consumption.

Is Soy Consumption Good or Bad for the Breast?
 

lvysaur

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There may be a strong genetic aspect to whether its effect is estrogenic or antiestrogenic. I once read in a study (wish I could find it again) that soy and green tea which were both protective in japan against prostate cancer, had an opposite effect on a population of tropical asians. Sadly I can't find relevant studies done on caucasians.

Tropical Asians as in southeast Asian, or Indian, or what? Very important detail.
 
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belscb

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"Well anti estrogenic in a certain context- a background of excess estrogen."

That's a good point, sladerunner69. By this reasoning somebody like Ray Peat might experience a net increase in estrogenic activity, since the phytoestrogens wouldn't be competing with much of anything.

"There may be a strong genetic aspect to whether its effect is estrogenic or antiestrogenic."

I hadn't considered that, Elephanto. Interesting idea.
 

thegiantess

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It seems to me that populations that have a strong history of consuming soy will have a better tolerance for said consumption. Much like how Northern Europeans do much better with dairy than say, southern Asians.

I don't think this argument is new at all.. In fact I can remember when soy milk hit the market as the new awesome thing to drink. Must have been some 10-15 years ago? The whole campaign was based around the idea that it was good for women because the estrogenic activity in soy competed with ones own estrogenic activity at the receptor site.
 

lvysaur

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It seems to me that populations that have a strong history of consuming soy will have a better tolerance for said consumption. Much like how Northern Europeans do much better with dairy than say, southern Asians.

Southern Asians don't have any history of consuming soy, and have a very strong history of consuming milk. They're approximately on par with Europeans in terms of rates of "lactose tolerance", despite their extremely endotoxemic diet (based very heavily on legumes, bacterial/SIBO promoting food, and PUFA).

If you're trying to say that people whose origins are from the east of the Himalayas have a better tolerance for soy than others, then I would tentatively agree.
 

thegiantess

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Southern Asians don't have any history of consuming soy, and have a very strong history of consuming milk. They're approximately on par with Europeans in terms of rates of "lactose tolerance", despite their extremely endotoxemic diet (based very heavily on legumes, bacterial/SIBO promoting food, and PUFA).

If you're trying to say that people whose origins are from the east of the Himalayas have a better tolerance for soy than others, then I would tentatively agree.
I didn't say southern Asians had a history of consuming soy. I said southern Asians don't have a history of consuming dairy. I don't know which part of Asia you're referring to, but I was thinking of Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, China, etc. Save for perhaps India and Pakistan I don't agree with you at all.
 

lvysaur

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I didn't say southern Asians had a history of consuming soy. I said southern Asians don't have a history of consuming dairy.

You're right. I just made the association myself.

I don't know which part of Asia you're referring to, but I was thinking of Korea, Thailand, Vietnam, China, etc. Save for perhaps India and Pakistan I don't agree with you at all.

India/Pakistan/Bangladesh are usually what's being referred to when people from America say "south Asia". Korea wouldn't be southern Asia by any definition, though.
 

tara

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The process of producing natural progesterone, which is made from yams and soybeans, was discovered by Russell Marker,
AIUI, the wild yams etc that are used as raw material in production of progesterone contain diosgenin, which is converted by lab/factory to progesterone. The yams do not contain any progesterone (and the human body cannot make progesterone out of diosgenin).
 

thegiantess

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You're right. I just made the association myself.



India/Pakistan/Bangladesh are usually what's being referred to when people from America say "south Asia". Korea wouldn't be southern Asia by any definition, though.

You're right, I lumped it in there. My general point is that Asian countries for the most part do not have a history of dairy consumption. That's all.
 

Barry

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"Asian women who consumed tofu during adolescence but not in adult life still had a lowered incidence of breast cancer compared with those who never consumed tofu or only consumed tofu as an adult"
I have seen this result in other studies.
 

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