Sources Of Endotoxin

[j.]

Maybe coca cola is the least likely caffeine source, among coca cola, coffee, and chocolate, to produce an adrenaline response, due to all the sugar?

I was able to consume I think up to 300 mg of caffeine in a day from coca cola (3 liters), effortlessly. I don't know how much chocolate or coffee I would need to take that amount.

(side note: I want to find a way to keep my caffeine intake high without so much coca cola. one day is easy to take that much, but doing it every day doesn't leave much room for other drinks. i'll try adding caffeine powder to coca cola)

 

[mt_dreams]

unripe fruit doesn't cause endotoxin but similar type response
indigestible starch (raw, undercooked, gone stale, cold)
rough or astringent fiber (anything that has adhering properties or is rough, like raw kale or wheat bran)

I'm confused, does resistant starch cause endotoxin, or does it protect you from endotoxin (as such saturation's link to another post suggests), or does it do both?

On another note, cocoa contains roughly 1/4 of caffeine that coffee does give or take a bit. Once I kicked my nightime cocoa habit, falling asleep became much easier.

 

[Milklove]

Maybe coca cola is the least likely caffeine source, among coca cola, coffee, and chocolate, to produce an adrenaline response, due to all the sugar?

I was able to consume I think up to 300 mg of caffeine in a day from coca cola (3 liters), effortlessly. I don't know how much chocolate or coffee I would need to take that amount.

(side note: I want to find a way to keep my caffeine intake high without so much coca cola. one day is easy to take that much, but doing it every day doesn't leave much room for other drinks. i'll try adding caffeine powder to coca cola)

Back when my liver was not working really well I prefered coca cola over coffee. The cola allowed me to have small amounts of caffeine throughout the day which worked better for me.
Now, since my liver is working well, it is a bit tiresome to get a high intake of caffeine just by drinking coke, so I add some caffeine powder to the coke ( I also add some niacinamide). It works really well and I don't taste any of the two powder.

 

[j.]

caffeine is metabolized I think to theobromine, and chocolate has also theobromine, so maybe comparing the caffeine equivalent effects has to consider some other details.

 

[j.]

I also consume chocolate and coffee. Consuming coffee and chocolate and coca cola leaves me feeling that I consumed what I wanted only after consuming 3 liters of coca cola, and after getting sick of both coffee and chocolate for that day. So I want that caffeine powder to arrive...

 

[Milklove]

unripe fruit doesn't cause endotoxin but similar type response
indigestible starch (raw, undercooked, gone stale, cold)
rough or astringent fiber (anything that has adhering properties or is rough, like raw kale or wheat bran)

I'm confused, does resistant starch cause endotoxin, or does it protect you from endotoxin (as such saturation's link to another post suggests), or does it do both?

On another note, cocoa contains roughly 1/4 of caffeine that coffee does give or take a bit. Once I kicked my nightime cocoa habit, falling asleep became much easier.

I think it depends on how healthy you are. If you are truly healthy, the changes in the mucosa lining produced by resistant starch might protect against endotoxins, as this study claims.
If someone is hypothyroid, the resistant starch can worsen an endotoxin problem. In my opinion, there are a better ways to protect yourself from endotoxins than resistant starch.

 

[pboy]

would you guys believe me if I said I consumed 2500mg caffeine (not supplement) in a day plus a near equal amount of theobromine? Apparently when Ive added it up ive come close or surpassed that on a few occasions

to mt_dreams, youre right, raw starch can cause endotoxin just like resistant starch...which potentially unripe fruit could have. A lot of times they don't even if they are a bit underripe, but they'll usually have more antinutrients and acid content which are what cause an inflammation response...but that particular effect isn't due to endotoxin. But yea, an unripe fruit eaten raw that did have starch would probably cause some endotoxin

 

[j.]

It's believable, you seem to have energy.

Who consumed the most caffeine might become the new who's got the biggest ****.

 

[Milklove]

It's believable, you seem to have energy.

Who consumed the most caffeine might become the new w'sgot the biggest ****.

caffeine for sure improves sexual performance, so it might even be more useful than a big ****!

 

[pboy]

lol I remember when I first started reading Peats work there was something going around about 50 cups of coffee in a day...probably someone joking or trying to do it just to set a record or something. At that point youd be at about 70% the toxic limit. At that point youd go in for sex and finish in 10 seconds then spring up and run out of the room to the next task

 

[Such_Saturation]

They say the short chain fat from resistant starch fermentation is the fuel for the cells in your colon, I bet we could find a more efficient way of delivery.

 

[Milklove]

They say the short chain fat from resistant starch fermentation is the fuel for the cells in your colon, I bet we could find a more efficient way of delivery.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16633129

This abstract mentions butyrate (a short chain fatty acid) as the main energy source for the colonocytes.
So, how can we get butyrate? There are two ways:
1. directly (Butter is the biggest nutrional butyrate source with 3%-4% butyrate)
2. by gut fermentation of special types of fiber ( resistant starch, pectin and cellulose)

Does anyone want to try a carrot salad with butter?

 

[pboy]

about a week ago I had some heavy cream that started smelling off so I poured it out into the yard..for the next 5 days or so it smelled really strong and pretty terrible whenever I walked by that area. I did some research...and when you find out, butyrate / butyric acid is actually considered toxic to humans (like alcohol, we can metabolize it but its initially toxic), and can cause irritation to skin and lungs. Its not allowed to be dumped into water supplies and must be properly disposed up, probably also because its flammable. It smells so bad to humans in its pure form that people are almost incapable of functioning around it. Apparently human breast milk has no butyric acid or the other short chain fatty acids. Basically I think its just like any other microbe by product (alcohol, acetic acid, lactic acid) and ends up in the cows milk or rumen milk due to the fermentation going on in its body and some leaks into the milk, just like excess alcohol can leak into human breast milk, and though we can metabolize it for energy, its probably anti thyroid and throws off acid base balance (like having high ketone levels). The amount present in milk doesn't seem to be enough to be noticeable if spaced out enough, but I would definitely not purposely try to have a high level of butyrate via fermention. The colon cells probably 'prefer it as a fuel' in the same way most cells 'prefer alcohol as a fuel' when it is ingested...its because it is slightly toxic so it is metabolized first in order to detoxify it, and most people in this society probably are always subjecting their colon cells to relatively high amounts of butyrate. In reality, colon cells probably 'prefer' glucose, supplied by the arteries, just like every other cell

 

[Milklove]

I bloody love that you have this totally different perspective on this! Very valuable input!

Do you think that the positive effects of butyrate on the mucosa lining shown by studies are not worth its toxicity?

 

[j.]

The fermentation to make butyric acid produces high amount of ATP? According to wiki:

ATP is produced, as can be seen, in the last step of the fermentation. Three molecules of ATP are produced for each glucose molecule, a relatively high yield.

From the same article:

The role of butyrate differs between normal and cancerous cells. This is known as the "butyrate paradox". Butyrate inhibits colonic tumor cells, and promotes healthy colonic epithelial cells

 

[Milklove]

The fermentation to make butyric acid produces high amount of ATP? According to wiki:

ATP is produced, as can be seen, in the last step of the fermentation. Three molecules of ATP are produced for each glucose molecule, a relatively high yield.

That is not a good reason to consume it. Remember that ethanol fermentation produces ATP as well.

 

[Milklove]

You were right, pboy!

The formation of serotonin in the intestine is also stimulated by the lactate, propionate and butyrate that are formed by bacteria fermenting fiber and starch, but these bacteria also produce endotoxin.-Ray Peat

Can someone explain the differences between butyrate and butyric acid?

Coconut oil serves several purposes. Its butyric acid is known to increase T3 uptake by glial cells. - Ray Peat

 

[Such_Saturation]

The study did claim reduced endotoxin flow though! I use molten butter on carrot all the time, it works awesome. We could try suppositories.

 

[pboy]

its also interesting to note that the closest animals to humans digestive system are ungulants, like horses, mule, camel, elephant, and consequently I think these were the first domestic animals that milk was derived from, and what many non civilized people still consume. These non ruminant milks don't have the ferment short chain acids. They also have closer to human in whey to casein

 

[Milklove]

How about this?
Butyrate is one way to strenghten the mucosa lining and to reduce the endotoxin flow, but since it also increases serotonin, it maybe is only suboptimal.