Sources Of Endotoxin

jyb

Member
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,775
Location
UK
I wonder what are the possible sources of endotoxins and gut inflammation. I know that starch can be either a direct source (small particles that penetrate through the intestinal wall) or indirect (feeds on bad bacteria). But what about incompletely digested fat or proteins? For example, hypothyroidism makes it more likely that the food is not digested thoroughly in the stomach due to insufficient acid produced (I believe), so I wonder what happens to the fat when eating say a large portion of cheese, and if incomplete digestion could explain some symptoms.
 

kiran

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
1,054
High fat meals can promote endotoxin and inflammation. Possibly by promoting absorption of already present endotoxin (via secretion of bile?).
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,775
Location
UK
kiran said:
High fat meals can promote endotoxin and inflammation. Possibly by promoting absorption of already present endotoxin (via secretion of bile?).

What about proteins? Let's say its bedtime, and have some gelatin and milk. Since metabolism has slowed down considerably by that time, is there enough stomach function to properly digest those? I think however that in the morning, when metabolism is still slow, protein seems good.

These questions seem like details, but experience with carrot and cascara has taught me that even when eating mostly easily digested foods, symptoms seem related to what happens in the gut. And I feel like what happens in the gut is a cause, rather than a consequence of some respiration problem, though either is possible.
 

kiran

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
1,054
Well, if you're not getting enough carbs/sugar to offset the protein then stress hormones can be released to make the necessary sugar available. Stress can also cause the release of gut endotoxin into the system

There are hard to digest proteins like gluten, but I don't think gelatin or milk falls into that category.
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
I have read somewhere, either RP or other source, that partially digested protein is
quite toxic and irritates intestine. Any kind of small intestine irritation will increase
serotonin. Undigested gelatin surely feeds bacteria, not sure about other proteins.
RP has mentioned that saturated fat kills bad bacteria and PUFA increases bad bacteria.
I do not remember how PUFA increases bad bacteria. He also explained that when
saturated fat is eaten with fiber it can turn beneficial by killing bad bacteria
down the small intestine. Fiber and fat with meal help with lowering persorption.
RP recommends eating mostly sugar and fat after sunset. Quality of sleep is a good
indicator if drinking a glass of milk before bed was a good idea or not.
You can try ice cream, OJ or pure sugar before bed and see if it affects sleep.
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,775
Location
UK
Mittir said:
I have read somewhere, either RP or other source, that partially digested protein is
quite toxic and irritates intestine. Any kind of small intestine irritation will increase
serotonin. Undigested gelatin surely feeds bacteria, not sure about other proteins.
RP has mentioned that saturated fat kills bad bacteria and PUFA increases bad bacteria.
I do not remember how PUFA increases bad bacteria. He also explained that when
saturated fat is eaten with fiber it can turn beneficial by killing bad bacteria
down the small intestine. Fiber and fat with meal help with lowering persorption.
RP recommends eating mostly sugar and fat after sunset. Quality of sleep is a good
indicator if drinking a glass of milk before bed was a good idea or not.
You can try ice cream, OJ or pure sugar before bed and see if it affects sleep.

It contradicts a bit kiran's post about fat potentially promoting endotoxin (as avoiding pufa is a given).
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
@jyb
Bile salt excrete fat soluble toxins and helps to digest fat. Charlie just posted a study
showing raw carrot salad increasing bile and fat excretion by 50 percent.
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2740
If you are hypothyroid,then your intestine is sluggish and this will
increase the damage done by bile acid. It is a mix bag.
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
Joined
Jan 4, 2012
Messages
11,846
Location
USA
But isnt the carrot helping to move out the bile? So it does not re-absorb?
 

jyb

Member
Thread starter
Joined
Nov 9, 2012
Messages
2,775
Location
UK
@Mittir: so the hypothesis is that one wants at least some saturated fat to absorb the toxins, but if a lot of fat then a lot of bile (whether hypo or not), and then if hypo and slow digestion then bile has more time to irritate the gut?
 

Mittir

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
2,034
@Charlie
Yes, that is why carrot salad helps.

@jyb
I am not sure about that hypothesis. I think a person would secrete some bile salt even when there is no fat in the diet. It is true that high fat diet increases bile acid content of digestive tract.I am thinking about about William Brown's fat free diet, he had all those major health
improvement without eating any fat.
 

kiran

Member
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
1,054
Ok, there's a caveat: If the gelatin isn't fully dissolved, then it might be harder to digest.

But there are studies that indicate high fat meals promote inflammation. This is most likely due to fat sweeping endotoxin with it into the body. Fiber probably helps because it reduces fat absorption.
 

Milklove

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
127
j. said:
If you're absorbing endotoxin, I wonder if the caffeine in coca cola would help. Maybe someone who understand things better can say what can be concluded from this study:

Inhibition of adenosine deaminase attenuates endotoxin-induced release of cytokines in vivo in rats

May I ask why you are specifically mentioning the caffeine in coca cola? Caffeine from every source should do the trick.

There are two ways for us to protect ourselves from endotoxins:
1. Try to avoid the intake/ absorption of endotoxins and prevent the production of endotoxins by bacteria
2. Taking subtances that mitigate the bad effects of the endotoxins. Caffeine is one of them, others are Aspirin, Vitamin E, glycine, niacinamide and many more.

The cytokines mentioned in the study are signaling cells of the immune system and they promote inflammation. Caffeine seems to decrease the response of the immune system (decreased release of cytokines like interleukin and TNFalpha) to endotoxins.

on a personal note, I had better results when I both decreased the endotoxin content in my gut with carrot salad, bamboo shoots, or antiseptic substances like antibiotics or coconut oil and protected myself with one of the protective substances.

Btw, when my thyroid was really sluggish, I had a hard time digesting proteins especially after sunset. As soon as my metabolism increased, I didn't have this problem anymore. I believe that endotoxin related problems are a symptom of a sluggish thyroid and not it's cause.
 

pboy

Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
undigested protein, especially sulphur bearing (methionine, cysteine). The way the food is cooked and how old it is and processed make a difference
most plant toxins produce some endotoxin (like chilis, garlic, nutmeg, most spices...mustard, ect)
unripe fruit doesn't cause endotoxin but similar type response
indigestible starch (raw, undercooked, gone stale, cold)
rough or astringent fiber (anything that has adhering properties or is rough, like raw kale or wheat bran)

saturated fat doesn't enhance absorption of toxins, it also doesn't kill bacteria. Its basically like fiber that cant be fermented, its soap essentially, it lifts microbes off the surface of the skin and binds them so they get eliminated, but youd probably have to eat a pretty good dose to have that effect...enough to overwhelm the capacity to absorb all the fat. Coconut is an exception, and pehaps a bitter olive oil. PUFA has a similar effect actually, a soaping effect, but can be obstructive along the path because of auto oxidation, which can be like unripe fruit in the sense of a non endotoxin source of irritation
 
J

j.

Guest
Milklove said:
May I ask why you are specifically mentioning the caffeine in coca cola? Caffeine from every source should do the trick.

Just because is what I had in mind, it's already made when you buy it, and it has I think a good amount of sugar which might be helpful.

The caffeine content though maybe it's low, I think 1 liter has 100 mg. If it's too low one possibility is adding caffeine powder.
 

chelle86

Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2014
Messages
43
coffee and t3 excitability

I am wondering if anyone else experiences this: I try so hard to have the coffee each day (been peating for over 1 month now) - lots of milk, lots of sugar - very early in my day as I am very sensitive to caffeine ..... no matter what, the days/weeks that I force myself to have coffee, I'm jittery/anxious all day, and can't sleep that night, no matter how exhausted I am. When I stop drinking coffee, after a day or two, I actually get a decent nights sleep (for me, anyway). I do hot chocolate with real cocao, raw milk, salt and sugar each night before bed as Ray suggests for sleep problems, and haven't necessarily noticed a difference, but I'll keep trucking along with that ....

I also experience the same kind of thing (jittery, anxious) when I add cynomel ... just an 1/8-1/4 tab with each meal --- jittery beyond belief - feel like I'm coming out of my skin. I am taking dessicated thyroid and have had good results with that (temps coming up), but my pulse is pretty much on average within good range. I've backed off of the t3 (cynomel) for a day or two, and no coffee, and felt relaxed, tired actually, but slept decently - however, I still bolt awake around 3am for 2 hours or so.
I feel like I've got so much info swarming around in my head between my symptoms, and trying to help my daughter with different symptoms (all that respond to Ray Peat's diet/progesterone findings) .... so I could really use a clear thinker to set me on the right track ... to coffee, or not to coffee, to t3 or not to t3? :) Thanks!
 

Peata

Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
3,402
Re: coffee and t3 excitability

chelle86 said:
I am wondering if anyone else experiences this: I try so hard to have the coffee each day (been peating for over 1 month now) - lots of milk, lots of sugar - very early in my day as I am very sensitive to caffeine ..... no matter what, the days/weeks that I force myself to have coffee, I'm jittery/anxious all day, and can't sleep that night, no matter how exhausted I am. When I stop drinking coffee, after a day or two, I actually get a decent nights sleep (for me, anyway). I do hot chocolate with real cocao, raw milk, salt and sugar each night before bed as Ray suggests for sleep problems, and haven't necessarily noticed a difference, but I'll keep trucking along with that ....

I also experience the same kind of thing (jittery, anxious) when I add cynomel ... just an 1/8-1/4 tab with each meal --- jittery beyond belief - feel like I'm coming out of my skin. I am taking dessicated thyroid and have had good results with that (temps coming up), but my pulse is pretty much on average within good range. I've backed off of the t3 (cynomel) for a day or two, and no coffee, and felt relaxed, tired actually, but slept decently - however, I still bolt awake around 3am for 2 hours or so.
I feel like I've got so much info swarming around in my head between my symptoms, and trying to help my daughter with different symptoms (all that respond to Ray Peat's diet/progesterone findings) .... so I could really use a clear thinker to set me on the right track ... to coffee, or not to coffee, to t3 or not to t3? :) Thanks!

Well, from my experience I have to eat or drink something before the morning coffee or I can also get too much adrenaline. I have something sweet - maybe Greek yogurt with strawberry jam and extra sugar stirred in. Or fruit. Something though before the coffee/milk/sugar/salt.

And not sure I would put cocoa in my drink before sleep. I just know it causes me some adrenaline feelings even during the day. I'm not sure if it lowers my blood sugar too much or what.

As far as waking in the night, I keep about 1/2 c. milk by the bedside, can put sugar/salt in it. I drink that if I wake up with what you describe. I've used honey too. Taking 1 or 2 T.

Also, there's been discussion of taping one's mouth shut to prevent mouth breathing in the night which can cause hyporventilation. You lose too much CO2, you get dry mouth. You don't even realize your breathing is not good. So taping mouth shut is one way, and I'm going to experiment with a chin strap to hold my mouth closed in sleep.

HTH.
 

Milklove

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
127
Re: coffee and t3 excitability

chelle86 said:
I am wondering if anyone else experiences this: I try so hard to have the coffee each day (been peating for over 1 month now) - lots of milk, lots of sugar - very early in my day as I am very sensitive to caffeine ..... no matter what, the days/weeks that I force myself to have coffee, I'm jittery/anxious all day, and can't sleep that night, no matter how exhausted I am. When I stop drinking coffee, after a day or two, I actually get a decent nights sleep (for me, anyway). I do hot chocolate with real cocao, raw milk, salt and sugar each night before bed as Ray suggests for sleep problems, and haven't necessarily noticed a difference, but I'll keep trucking along with that ....

I also experience the same kind of thing (jittery, anxious) when I add cynomel ... just an 1/8-1/4 tab with each meal --- jittery beyond belief - feel like I'm coming out of my skin. I am taking dessicated thyroid and have had good results with that (temps coming up), but my pulse is pretty much on average within good range. I've backed off of the t3 (cynomel) for a day or two, and no coffee, and felt relaxed, tired actually, but slept decently - however, I still bolt awake around 3am for 2 hours or so.
I feel like I've got so much info swarming around in my head between my symptoms, and trying to help my daughter with different symptoms (all that respond to Ray Peat's diet/progesterone findings) .... so I could really use a clear thinker to set me on the right track ... to coffee, or not to coffee, to t3 or not to t3? :) Thanks!


If I were you, I would give niacinamide a go. I always take a little bit of it when I consume caffeine and it prevents the adrenalin response I would get otherwise.
This thread might be helpful to you: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3480&hilit=surrogates
 

Milklove

Member
Joined
Jan 1, 2014
Messages
127
j. said:
Milklove said:
May I ask why you are specifically mentioning the caffeine in coca cola? Caffeine from every source should do the trick.

Just because is what I had in mind, it's already made when you buy it, and it has I think a good amount of sugar which might be helpful.

The caffeine content though maybe it's low, I think 1 liter has 100 mg. If it's too low one possibility is adding caffeine powder.

Ray Peat once mentioned that caffeine can strenghten the gut lining, which also could protect from endotoxins. I was very sceptical of this, until I experienced it myself. I believe that caffeine strenghtens the gut lining since it synergizes with progesterone, which has a healing effect on the gut lining.
But, if you get an adrenaline response when taking caffeine, the adrenaline is going to hurt the lining more than the progesterone will heal it.
 
Similar threads
Thread starter Title Forum Replies Date
M Natural sources of policosanol: Wheat, sugar cane and beeswax Diet 4
M Copper sources if not tolerating oysters, liver, cocoa and juices? Ask For Help or Advice 34
metabolizm Alternative News Sources? Rant or Rave 11
S US sources of Cytomel, Tiromel etc 2021? Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 2
G Calcium-Phosphorus Ratio In Animal Protein Sources: What To Choose? Diet 7
Hans The Best Pre-workout Carb Sources Articles & Scientific Studies 47
wealthofwisdom Non-Milk Calcium Sources? Diet 14
F Erythromycin Sources Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 5
Y Need Books/sources On Understanding Viruses Ask For Help or Advice 1
T What Are Your Best Sources For Independent Journalism On COVID-19? Political Talk, Alternative World Theories 6
jzeno High Quality Liverwurst Sources Organ Meat 2
H Best Over The Counter Sources For T3 And T4 Metabolism 7
J Good Tianeptine Sources In Uk/Europe? Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 0
M Meldonium/Mildronate Sources Ask For Help or Advice 9
Francisco Dietary Sources Of Vitamin E? Vitamins 51
Francisco Optimal Amount Of Protein And Best Sources Diet 8
M Liver Sources - Rabbit Organ Meat 0
jzeno 2019 Thyroid Sources Thyroid and Hormones 15
Repas du soir What Are Some Good Zinc Food-sources Besides Oysters And Beef? Minerals 1
Amazigh Potato Protein Sources Amino Acids 3
RobertJM Recommended Magnesium Sources Minerals 57
S Best Sources Of Liver In The Uk Organ Meat 4
J Best Sources Of Oysters/prawns Etc Seafood 1
L Button Mushrooms Are Good Sources Of Copper Minerals 2
M Food Sources For Manganese, Boron, Molybdenum And Selenium? Ask For Help or Advice 11
L How Much Protein Do You Get In A Day? What Are Your Main Protein Sources? Protein 9
Momado965 Bromocriptine Sources Supplements, Pharmaceutical Drugs 6
A Zinc And Copper In Protein Sources Protein 3
J Australian Antibiotic Sources Pharmaceutical Drugs 0
F Good Sources Of Aspirin In Canada? Ask For Help or Advice 3
L Calcium Citrate Instead Of All Other Calcium Sources Calcium 14
ecstatichamster Sources Of T4 And T3 - Updated? Suppliers 2
Amazoniac "The Primary Sources Of Acidity In The Diet Are Sulfur-containing AAs, Salt, And Phosphoric Acid" Acidity vs. Alkalinity 301
DaveFoster 2018 Thyroid Sources Thyroid and Hormones 167
S Cascara Sagrada Sources In Europe Cascara Sagrada 5
E Carb Sources For 15 Month Old Boy Diet 6
AretnaP How Inferior Is Beta-carotene Compared To Vitamin A From Meat Sources? Vitamins 14
E Good Peat Friendly Sources (foods) Of B Vitamins, Specially B6? Diet 40
japanesedude Does Anyone Know The Good Sources Of Testosterone Gel/cream ? Male Issues 20
C Cypheptadine Sources Cyproheptadine 0
ecstatichamster Sources Of Supplements In South Africa Supplements 3
A Legit Sources Of T3 Suppliers 2
W Accurate Nutrition Data Sources? Diet 6
S Asking For Urgent Help. Calcium Sources? Orthorexia, Depression (sleep Induced) Traveling So Diet 10
David PS Food Sources For Apigenin And Naringenin Diet, Recipes 5
J Caffeine Sources Coffee 1
S Vitamin E - European Sources E 2
D Sources In Colombia? Please Post Them! ) Suppliers 2
ecstatichamster Any Sources Of Procaine? Suppliers 12
dfspcc20 Theanine, Lysine Sources Amino Acids 1

Similar threads

Top