Sort Out Your Life, Not Your Diet

[Jing]

No, it is the perception and interpretation of the constraint, not the constraint itself.
If you prevent the rat from perceiving/interpreting the constraint by temporally deactivating its consciousness (anesthetizing it), the ulcers would not have been formed.

Because taking away the rats perception stops the stress because the rat can't perceive the stress but the rat being conscious sees the stress positive thinking wouldn't prevent the stress that is there.

 

[Atman]

Because taking away the rats perception stops the stress because the rat can't perceive the stress but the rat being conscious sees the stress positive thinking wouldn't prevent the stress that is there.

No, the rat being conscious senses the constraint and perceives/interprets it as threatening which then triggers the stress response.
My point is that the perception/interpretation step is malleable, especially in humans.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

No, it is the perception and interpretation of the constraint, not the constraint itself.
If you prevent the rat from perceiving/interpreting the constraint by temporally deactivating its consciousness (anesthetizing it), the ulcers would not have been formed.

Well, just because stress can be caused by the perception of something, it doesn't mean every type of stress is caused because someone noticed it. What happens with people is that they only perceive that they are unwell suddenly. They are well until they are not. So what you are saying is that as long as somebody doesn't realize that they, for example, have been shot in the chest, they are going to live happily as if nothing happened?

 

[Inaut]

Well, just because stress can be caused by the perception of something, it doesn't mean every type of stress is caused because someone noticed it. What happens with people is that they only perceive that they are unwell suddenly. They are well until they are not. So what you are saying is that as long as somebody doesn't realize that they, for example, have been shot in the chest, they are going to live happily as if nothing happened?

Mostly anecdotal but we've all heard stories about people getting shot or stabbed, not realizing they were shot or stabbed and appear to be functioning as if unwounded until......somebody points out that they have a knife in their back or a huge hole in their chest and whango! They perceive the wound and subsequently die...Hormones are involved at that point as well so it's also a physiological thing but..Again more of an allegory but I think perception can border on the supernatural at times...

PS. not saying that people won't die from gunshot wounds to the chest if they remain optimistic as there are countless people dying every day from traumatic evens.......I just think there's more to it...outside of our understanding and perception.
Minutiae

 

[Jing]

No, the rat being conscious senses the constraint and perceives/interprets it as threatening which then triggers the stress response.
My point is that the perception/interpretation step is malleable, especially in humans.

They perceive it as threatening because it is threatening .. thinking positive about a threatening situation is just being delusional and won't help anything .. if I punch you in the face multiple times but you just think positive will it still hurt?

 

[Atman]

Well, just because stress can be caused by the perception of something, it doesn't mean every type of stress is caused because someone noticed it. What happens with people is that they only perceive that they are unwell suddenly. They are well until they are not. So what you are saying is that as long as somebody doesn't realize that they, for example, have been shot in the chest, they are going to live happily as if nothing happened?

That's not what I've said.

 

[biffbelvin]

I was recently on a stag do for a couple of days in the countryside. I basically ate crap, drank both day, smoked like a chimney and stayed up until 3/4am both nights. The only 'healthful' thing I did was walk up a 2600ft hill with on one of those days.

On the train back I was sat on a sleeping bag in the vestibule with my friends just chit-chatting. They were passing a bottle of rum around, but i'd chosen to stop drinking by then. We were all packed together and I was leaning against the wall. I should have been uncomfortable, given that I'm usually in pain just from sitting in normal chairs, but I was completely fine. My breathing was steady and I was completely at peace. (neurotic sidenote: if i can get my breathing steady it bypasses most pain, likely from encouraging proper respiration/oxygenation. It's very difficult to maintain though, especially during the work day)

Whilst I'd obviously done literal harm to my body, the social engagement and bonding with old friends (and making new ones) had completely offset any mental effects. I had a very warm outlook and a broad smile for the full day.

I strongly agree with the sentiment of this thread, and have personally found the next 'jump' in health has come from making more of an effort to spend time with friends and family, as well as making plans for the future. This is something I neglected for the longest time, partly due to low self-esteem (thinking they don't really want to do things with me) but also just a complete lack of practice (i'd always relied on other friends or family member to initiate things).

On the flip side it can also have deletorious effects. When I was at my most neurotic and 'supplement-happy' I was also at my worst. This was primarily due to a toxic relationship combined. It was so bad that I couldn't drink alcohol without having a panic attack (the small reduction in respiratory efficiency was enough to make me hyperventilate). As soon as that relationship ended, I felt immeasurably better.

 

[Jennifer]

Nathan Hatch has an excellent chapter on depression that speaks 100% what I think about the subject. He says how he did EVERYTHING - Therapy, "thinking positive thoughts", journalling, meditation, yoga... etc etc etc... NONE OF IT WORKS. That's because it's not a MENTAL PROBLEM. It is merely the mental manifestation of a PHYSICAL problem.

The question I would ask is, did Nate actually want to be doing any of those things? Were they an honest expression of himself or something he thought he should be doing to heal? Why we do something means just as much as how we do it IME.

The only one I personally find truly therapeutic out of those is meditation, but not the typical sit on a pillow and clear the mind of all thoughts kind of meditating — my kind is music and dance. I would rather stab myself in the eye with a fork and give it a good twist than do yoga or force myself to think positive when every ounce of my being wants to curl up in a ball and die. That's one of the beauties of almost dying or "hitting rock bottom" — embracing who I am, even the messy parts, and living true to that has been one of, if not the most, healing things for me. It has also been one of the hardest.

Diet has helped, for sure, but even that is fluid and something I have to be mindful of — sometimes I want more sugar or protein and sometimes I want more fat etc. Forcing myself to eat a specific way out of the belief that it's how I should be eating always backfires on me. I believe we are energy and constantly doing what I think I should be doing and not what aligns with who I am, is so soul sucking. The energy it takes to go against myself is far more draining than a "less than ideal" food/diet. While some thrive on structure, others need lots of freedom to thrive. Know thy self. :)

 

[Atman]

They perceive it as threatening because it is threatening .. thinking positive about a threatening situation is just being delusional and won't help anything .. if I punch you in the face multiple times but you just think positive will it still hurt?

I just used that rat experiment to explain the general phenomenon.

People with anxiety or paranoia disorders perceive everyday situations as threatening even though they are not.

 

[Jing]

I just used that rat experiment to explain the general phenomenon.

People with anxiety or paranoia disorders perceive everyday situations as threatening even though they are not.

And why would they perceive everyday situations as threatening? Perhaps something is wrong in there body which stops them from feeling good no amount of positive thinking will stop that.

 

[Atman]

And why would they perceive everyday situations as threatening? Perhaps something is wrong in there body which stops them from feeling good no amount of positive thinking will stop that.

Well if take the stance of a hardcore materialist and deny any possibility that the thinking patterns of a person can be deranged or that they can be influenced by activities and information, it makes no sense to argue with you.

Drugs can alter your physiology and influence your mood and thoughts, but your thoughts can't alter your physiology?

 

[Jing]

Well if take the stance of a hardcore materialist and deny any possibility that the thinking patterns of a person can be deranged or that they can be influenced by activities and information, it makes no sense to argue with you.

Drugs can alter your physiology and influence your mood and thoughts, but your thoughts can't alter your physiology?

Your thoughts can't influence anything if you have someone wrong in your body otherwise we wouldn't need drugs we would all just be able to think to ourselves I'm high on cocaine instead of snorting it ... Otherwise there would be no depressed or paranoid people you honestly think someone wakes up and thinks I'm going to be depressed today instead of happy .. do you honestly think happy people wake up and think I am going to be happy today? No they just are. Non suicidal people don't have to fight suicidal thoughts they just don't have them.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

That's not what I've said.

Yeah, I see it. My mistake. Your argument is that if you think that the situation is bad, then just the stress of that will do damage to you. Do you think positive thinking can heal the cells and tissues in the same way that the negative can hurt you? The reason I brought up an example of an injury is that it's na easy way to know how much positive thinking helps You agree that keeping a rat immobile is a less than ideal environment for it, right? I think consciousness identifies which environments are bad for the physiology. That means that when the consciousness sees a problem, it will try to make sure that the organism gets out of it. A stress reaction caused by that would be appropriate, since the place where the organism isn't a good one. But I don't think you're getting at the crux of the question: why do many people have stress responses that are not appropriate? In my opinion, that is because the thing that has the biggest impact on the mind is actually physiology and cell energy. I absolutely agree that watching the news, thinking negatively, talking to unhealthy people, being subjected to humiliation, etc. all affect our physiology, but these things are more downstream. Cell energy and structure are what governs the reaction to all those things. Ray said that the reason the rats who were constrained got ulcers was because their stress hormones were high( bad situation means that the body will temporarily use much more energy than usual and less effectively, but more quickly to overcome the situation), so giving something like a serotonin antagonist would probably avoid the ulcers, since the rats will keep calm.

Also, something interesting that I read here in the fórum: when you form a memory and remember it, you are actually reliving it in your mind. That means your cells's structure has changed and the memory is part of you. That may mean that simply imagining a stressful situation is the same or almost the same as living. I think this resonates with what you're saying.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Your thoughts can't influence anything if you have someone wrong in your body otherwise we wouldn't need drugs we would all just be able to think to ourselves I'm high on cocaine instead of snorting it ... Otherwise there would be no depressed or paranoid people you honestly think someone wakes up and thinks I'm going to be depressed today instead of happy .. do you honestly think happy people wake up and think I am going to be happy today? No they just are. Non suicidal people don't have to fight suicidal thoughts they just don't have them.

Yeah, thinking seems to be more downstream. Cell structure and energy is what controls everything, I think. That explains why some people can take a lot of assaults before succumbing to stress.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

Mostly anecdotal but we've all heard stories about people getting shot or stabbed, not realizing they were shot or stabbed and appear to be functioning as if unwounded until......somebody points out that they have a knife in their back or a huge hole in their chest and whango! They perceive the wound and subsequently die...Hormones are involved at that point as well so it's also a physiological thing but..Again more of an allegory but I think perception can border on the supernatural at times...

PS. not saying that people won't die from gunshot wounds to the chest if they remain optimistic as there are countless people dying every day from traumatic evens.......I just think there's more to it...outside of our understanding and perception.
Minutiae

I think it depends on where the wound is. If you're not bleeding profusely and you don't have an infection, then I guess you can go pretty long without noticing it. The stress of perceiving the wound would definitely have a big impact( cortisol, serotonin, etc.).

 

[sunraiser]

This is an age old idea that will always create disagreement.

It's rooted in the same thought process as the rich vs poor divide in society. The rich person has everything provided to them and has to learn the value of hard work as there's no natural impetus for it. This becomes an extremely important life lesson to them.

The poor person has to innately work hard just to keep going each day, and the elixir for their situation is rest and rebuilding, but they need to learn the lesson that it's not shameful to rest and care for oneself.

There are some people that are feeling bad because they've followed the excesses of hedonism and a huge self discipline based lifestyle overhaul will likely help them.

There are others who have always been fighting and have run themselves into the ground, often tripped up by doctors and pharms when not understanding why their function is lacking. This group of people simply cannot get a properly functioning reward system from lifestyle change as they simply don't have the self expression and energy to gain anything long term from these changes. It has to start from a dietary and physiological perspective. Lifestyle will happen when your body tells you you have the energy.

I believe prolonged sunshine plus balanced (intuitive) diet is the remedy for many, but it's not always easy to access. Playing with fat solubles (esp vit d) can imbalance a person and might perhaps mean balanced fat solubles will be needed for a while to recover (maybe with tiny amounts of taurine - it can be dangerous though).

The problem is the "rich" person in these scenarios will generally be more likely to arrive in a position of authority, and therefore push their dogma on people whose experiences they simply can't understand (forced exercise, work harder harder harder etc).

Lifestyle amendments are clearly part of healing, but they'll happen intuitively as you get better. That doesn't mean you don't have to force yourself to cook good, enjoyable food at the start of things. It's still hard. The lifestyle amendments are key to healing but they must happen at a person's natural pace - they cannot be prescribed definitively. A person needs to be self aware and reflective to see if any if their behaviours are self destructive.

I think one of the reasons the "peat" diet gets so much traction is that it can be construed as a mostly milk, juice and fruit diet. Zero meal prep, zero effort, phd guy says it's healthy = large dogmatic appeal.

Lastly I think severe addiction is a big hazard that can block intuitive lifestyle changes when recovering, so some degree of moderation is always necessary.

 

[Cirion]

@sunraiser I know we don't see eye-to-eye on the whole rich vs. poor thing, but in terms of relating the health aspects I absolutely agree 100% with you. I won't spend the time debating that aspect of it since that's off topic for this and we'd probably waste our time anyway.

But you are either healthy or you're not. As others have hinted, healthy people don't decide "I'm going to be happy and not depressed today" they just ARE. Conversely, depressed people feel down, have negative thoughts, are even suicidal. They just ARE.

Yes, you can temporarily break out of it to a degree through therapy, hanging out with friends etc, but all of that is like pharmaceuticals - their benefits don't stick. Again, speaking from experience here.

There are others who have always been fighting and have run themselves into the ground, often tripped up by doctors and pharms when not understanding why their function is lacking. This group of people simply cannot get a properly functioning reward system from lifestyle change as they simply don't have the self expression and energy to gain anything long term from these changes. It has to start from a dietary and physiological perspective. Lifestyle will happen when your body tells you you have the energy.

This. This probably describes me pretty well. It all boils down to CELLULAR ENERGY. You either have it or you don't. Those who have high cellular energy, high cellular CO2 etc. are healthy and naturally think positively. Those who don't, won't. It's as simple as that.

A stressful situation absolutely can pull the trigger on negative health. In my experience, it is 100x easier to destroy good health than it is to obtain good health. Unfortunately. However the reverse is not true. An *emotional* or *environmental* trigger cannot be pulled on positive health. Okay, let me rephrase ... Not unless it is an extreme trigger. And even then, not really. I was going to write if you win the lotto that could do it, but I am thinking now that not even that is true. Plenty of people ruin their lives even after winning the lotto.

Want easy proof that physical cellular energy governs everything? How does a cup of coffee feel in the morning? How does it feel after a quality meal? How does it feel when you take T3 (I'm about to find out today...)? Etcetera? This is the only way to feel INSTANTLY better because these are examples of things that immediately provide CELLULAR ENERGY to your system.

Once your cellular energy is broken down, you can't find pleasure in any normal activities and your resilience to stress is also broken, so that your stress response to even every day life is completely blown out of proportion. I'd argue that if you can somehow maintain a constant high cellular energy, NOTHING would stress you out. Yes, NOTHING. Not even your best friend dying. Sure that'd be a little weird to not be sad about something like that, but I believe this to be true.

Lifestyle amendments are clearly part of healing, but they'll happen intuitively as you get better. That doesn't mean you don't have to force yourself to cook good, enjoyable food at the start of things. It's still hard. The lifestyle amendments are key to healing but they must happen at a person's natural pace - they cannot be prescribed definitively. A person needs to be self aware and reflective to see if any if their behaviours are self destructive.

This +1 as well. Again, I've proven this to be true from personal experience. Lifestyle amendments can only come from a position of high cellular energy.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

@sunraiser I know we don't see eye-to-eye on the whole rich vs. poor thing, but in terms of relating the health aspects I absolutely agree 100% with you. I won't spend the time debating that aspect of it since that's off topic for this and we'd probably waste our time anyway.

But you are either healthy or you're not. As others have hinted, healthy people don't decide "I'm going to be happy and not depressed today" they just ARE. Conversely, depressed people feel down, have negative thoughts, are even suicidal. They just ARE.

Yes, you can temporarily break out of it to a degree through therapy, hanging out with friends etc, but all of that is like pharmaceuticals - their benefits don't stick. Again, speaking from experience here.



This. This probably describes me pretty well. It all boils down to CELLULAR ENERGY. You either have it or you don't. Those who have high cellular energy, high cellular CO2 etc. are healthy and naturally think positively. Those who don't, won't. It's as simple as that.

A stressful situation absolutely can pull the trigger on negative health. In my experience, it is 100x easier to destroy good health than it is to obtain good health. Unfortunately. However the reverse is not true. An *emotional* or *environmental* trigger cannot be pulled on positive health. Okay, let me rephrase ... Not unless it is an extreme trigger. And even then, not really. I was going to write if you win the lotto that could do it, but I am thinking now that not even that is true. Plenty of people ruin their lives even after winning the lotto.

Want easy proof that physical cellular energy governs everything? How does a cup of coffee feel in the morning? How does it feel after a quality meal? How does it feel when you take T3 (I'm about to find out today...)? Etcetera? This is the only way to feel INSTANTLY better because these are examples of things that immediately provide CELLULAR ENERGY to your system.

Once your cellular energy is broken down, you can't find pleasure in any normal activities and your resilience to stress is also broken, so that your stress response to even every day life is completely blown out of proportion. I'd argue that if you can somehow maintain a constant high cellular energy, NOTHING would stress you out. Yes, NOTHING. Not even your best friend dying. Sure that'd be a little weird to not be sad about something like that, but I believe this to be true.



This +1 as well. Again, I've proven this to be true from personal experience. Lifestyle amendments can only come from a position of high cellular energy.

Yup. If your metabolism isn't there, then the only way to be positive is to force it. People who are positive in a forced manner have such a depressing behavior. You know that deep down they are hurting, but they are trying to show that everything is a ok even though it's not. Using fake smiles, for example. That is the path that a positive thinking will bring about if it's the only measure that you take.

 

[Cirion]

An example of how even extreme positive environmental events rarely bring about permanent positive change to your life

-- I earned a massive bonus this year that resulted in over $10,000 in one month of earnings. I felt AMAZING for a day or two afterwards, then the effect quickly faded. Now, let's take a hypothetical reverse situation - you find out you have an unexpected $10,000 charge you have to deal with. I am willing to bet you are going to feel bad about this for more than just a few days (Unless you're really rich).

We humans tend to have exaggerrated responses to negative stressors and underwhelming responses to positive "stressors". There is a severe imbalance here. And it's really due to most people lacking cellular energy. A healthy person will feel an amazing dopamine rush just to be alive and from the smallest things. An unhealthy person can only find satisfaction in alcohol, drugs, porn, video games, hookers, etc...

Now, if anyone wants to deposit $10M in my account, that might be a different story LOL!!! But even then, like I say, even lotto winners are rarely happy... The 10M might indeed make me happy though, I'll grant you that. Because I'll be able to retire, live on the beach, pursue ANY hobby I want etc etc... But winning $10M is such an extreme scenario that almost no one will ever see happen, at least not without actually working towards said money.

 

[somuch4food]

Yup. If your metabolism isn't there, then the only way to be positive is to force it. People who are positive in a forced manner have such a depressing behavior. You know that deep down they are hurting, but they are trying to show that everything is a ok even though it's not. Using fake smiles, for example. That is the path that a positive thinking will bring about if it's the only measure that you take.

That's who I was before. I have taken the first step by stopping the faking and power through and I'm now in the difficult phase of figuring out how to have more energy to be able to do what I want to do deep down.

In the past, I would have set my mind on some project, have initial motivation from the novelty and eventually crash. I never got anything significant done because of this vicious cycle.

I've been focusing on diet because it's difficult to make significant lifestyle changes in the dead of winter, but I will start tweaking my lifestyle as the light increases. More time outside, more outings with my family...