Sore/Tender Muscles & Joints

[Jsaute21]

All,

This thread is meant to get to the bottom of some sore joints & muscles i have encountered in the past year. I should note that symptoms have dramatically improved since finding this forum & specifically Peat. I used to strength train very vigorously as well as play sports at a high level. While doing this i eat very high protein, moderate carb & reasonably high PUFA. I have sought out massage therapists, MAT (Muscle Activation Technique) specialists and nothing has completely subsided it. In fact i have good range of motion and am still fairly powerful, etc due to favorable genetics.

Interestingly enough, i have found Peat to be brilliant yet again in some trials and tribulations. For one, pregnenolone and DHEA have already helped somewhat in allowing me to sprint fast again. My muscles seem to feel somewhat reinvigorated on these substances. However, the most dramatic positive effect i have felt has been ADD medication. I know it is not healthy, and i barely ever take it, but when i do, i feel extremely fast & limber. This tells me that sore muscles, joints etc are potentially connected to a dopamine/serotonin imbalance and thus low pulse rate. As unhealthy as ADD meds are, pulse and temp will shoot up from administration. Have any of you (former athletes or not) found ways to make your body feel the vitality you had in youth or early twenties through supplementation? Would love to hear thoughts on this. @haidut @sladerunner69 @Constatine @DaveFoster @Stryker and others.

 

[DaveFoster]

I'm 20, so I have no input. Too much cortisol/estrogen antagonism can cause sore joints.

 

[DrJ]

It's hard to say much about your muscle soreness without a better description. One general thought there would be lack of magnesium or potassium.

I've been able to eliminate any pain in my joints by using gelatin. The glycine and proline in that are anti-inflammatory and provide basic building blocks for tissue, hopefully preventing fibrosis.

 

[m_arch]

All,

This thread is meant to get to the bottom of some sore joints & muscles i have encountered in the past year. I should note that symptoms have dramatically improved since finding this forum & specifically Peat. I used to strength train very vigorously as well as play sports at a high level. While doing this i eat very high protein, moderate carb & reasonably high PUFA. I have sought out massage therapists, MAT (Muscle Activation Technique) specialists and nothing has completely subsided it. In fact i have good range of motion and am still fairly powerful, etc due to favorable genetics.

Interestingly enough, i have found Peat to be brilliant yet again in some trials and tribulations. For one, pregnenolone and DHEA have already helped somewhat in allowing me to sprint fast again. My muscles seem to feel somewhat reinvigorated on these substances. However, the most dramatic positive effect i have felt has been ADD medication. I know it is not healthy, and i barely ever take it, but when i do, i feel extremely fast & limber. This tells me that sore muscles, joints etc are potentially connected to a dopamine/serotonin imbalance and thus low pulse rate. As unhealthy as ADD meds are, pulse and temp will shoot up from administration. Have any of you (former athletes or not) found ways to make your body feel the vitality you had in youth or early twenties through supplementation? Would love to hear thoughts on this. @haidut @sladerunner69 @Constatine @DaveFoster @Stryker and others.

For me, progesterone takes away any kind of anxiety and t3 gives me a lot more energy.

I'm only 25, but i've been on accutaine and my joints / muscles have never felt great. Initially when I was pumping 150,000 UI of vitamin A I felt only what I could assume steroids to feel like, but the effect wore off.

I don't continue to use progesterone, t3 or vitamin A though. I was never 'crippled' by anything, and I am cautious in case there is any negative effects associated with them for long term use. I think ideally you want to use as natural methods as possible, which are slow and steady, and long lasting.

 

[Stryker]

All,

This thread is meant to get to the bottom of some sore joints & muscles i have encountered in the past year. I should note that symptoms have dramatically improved since finding this forum & specifically Peat. I used to strength train very vigorously as well as play sports at a high level. While doing this i eat very high protein, moderate carb & reasonably high PUFA. I have sought out massage therapists, MAT (Muscle Activation Technique) specialists and nothing has completely subsided it. In fact i have good range of motion and am still fairly powerful, etc due to favorable genetics.

Interestingly enough, i have found Peat to be brilliant yet again in some trials and tribulations. For one, pregnenolone and DHEA have already helped somewhat in allowing me to sprint fast again. My muscles seem to feel somewhat reinvigorated on these substances. However, the most dramatic positive effect i have felt has been ADD medication. I know it is not healthy, and i barely ever take it, but when i do, i feel extremely fast & limber. This tells me that sore muscles, joints etc are potentially connected to a dopamine/serotonin imbalance and thus low pulse rate. As unhealthy as ADD meds are, pulse and temp will shoot up from administration. Have any of you (former athletes or not) found ways to make your body feel the vitality you had in youth or early twenties through supplementation? Would love to hear thoughts on this. @haidut @sladerunner69 @Constatine @DaveFoster @Stryker and others.

i know exactly what you mean in regards to dopamine and serotonin in regards to soreness and it makes sense..having tried dexamphetamine many times.

i know for me having too much phosphate and little calcium will make me sore and stiff.. and things that irritate the gut like soy lecithin, vegetable gums and gluten.
i think the whole gluten free "fashion" is a load of wankery but i definately feel better in every aspect when i avoid it.

 

[Constatine]

I'm younger as well so I cannot speak from experience, I can only be theoretical.
Dopamine does have a direct effect on muscle function and tone, so increasing it via more natural means is a great start: Dopamine triggers skeletal muscle tone by activating D1-like receptors on somatic motoneurons. - PubMed - NCBI
Things to consider for increased dopamine function and muscle function:
Vitamin d: One of the obvious ones that increase dopamine receptor function as well as general dopamine levels. It's much better to get this from sunlight than supplements, but if you do use supplements topical application is the way to go. Low vitamin d greatly inhibits muscle function.
Vitamin B1 or Thiamine: First off thiamine is known to reduce muscle soreness. Its effects on dopamine is also very impressive as thiamin triphosphate has been shown to increase dopamine levels in the brain by 1400%: The Beneficial Role of Thiamine in Parkinson Disease - Lương - 2013 - CNS Neuroscience & Therapeutics - Wiley Online Library The effects of thiamin and its phosphate esters on dopamine release in the rat striatum. - PubMed - NCBI . The kind of thiamine matters here as thiamine monophosphate showed no increases in brain dopamine levels and thiamine diphosphate showed 249% increases in dopamine. This is probably due to each type's ability to cross the blood brain barrier. That being said sulbutiamine, a synthetic form of thiamine (basically thiamine that is very good at crossing the blood brain barrier) has been shown to decrease dopamine in certain areas of the brain. So perhaps the synthetic form has different effects, or thiamine just effects different parts of the brain differently (more likely). For sulbutiamine is still associated with some pro dopamine effects like increased libido despite such research. I don't know how Thiamine HCL (haidut's energin) compares, I only know that there are several synthetic thiamine versions with a high bioavailbility.
Shilajit: A substance similar to a herb that has been used for a very long time in ayurvedic medicine. It is well studied and increases dopamine levels in the brain, general vitality, healing rate, androgen production, and much more. It does however contain a reasonable amount of iron but no negative effects regarding the iron content was shown in this study: Evaluation of safety profile of black shilajit after 91 days repeated administration in rats .
Vitamin B6: Its well known as a way to increase dopamine Effect of vitamin B-6 nutrition on the levels of dopamine, dopamine metabolites, dopa decarboxylase activity, tyrosine, and GABA in the developing ... - PubMed - NCBI .

Get back to me if none of these more basic solutions help.
Also what ADD medication are you taking?

 

[Constatine]

For me, progesterone takes away any kind of anxiety and t3 gives me a lot more energy.

I'm only 25, but i've been on accutaine and my joints / muscles have never felt great. Initially when I was pumping 150,000 UI of vitamin A I felt only what I could assume steroids to feel like, but the effect wore off.

I don't continue to use progesterone, t3 or vitamin A though. I was never 'crippled' by anything, and I am cautious in case there is any negative effects associated with them for long term use. I think ideally you want to use as natural methods as possible, which are slow and steady, and long lasting.

I wonder if pumping that much vitamin A made you deficient in something else, hence why the effects wore off.

 

[Jsaute21]

Great answers, here thanks. Yeah, @Stryker there is definitely a cool connection between dopamine and athletic performance. @Constatine I was taking "time release" concerta. I was prescribed it as a younger. (8th grade and took through high school.) Stopped in college and since, but take it now very very rarely. My joints aren't unbearable by any means but they are restrictive for me feeling as explosive and athletic as i once did.

 

[Jsaute21]

@Constatine which pro dopamine supplements do you feel have had the most comprehensive benefits since experimenting?

@Stryker how often did you take dexamphetamine? Did you take any less intense supplements than dex such as tyrosine and others that had noticeable pro dopamine effects?

 

[Diokine]

How's your sleep?

Too much cortisol/estrogen antagonism can cause sore joints

Absolutely, proper cortisol signalling and response is absolutely critical for maintenance of connective tissue.

 

[Stryker]

@Constatine which pro dopamine supplements do you feel have had the most comprehensive benefits since experimenting?

@Stryker how often did you take dexamphetamine? Did you take any less intense supplements than dex such as tyrosine and others that had noticeable pro dopamine effects?

20 mg every few months... imo its good for breaking out of a "rut"

armodafinil and Bromantane would be the only others with noticeable dopaminergic effects without any kind of sedative qualitys in my experience

 

[Dante]

I'm younger as well so I cannot speak from experience, I can only be theoretical.
Dopamine does have a direct effect on muscle function and tone, so increasing it via more natural means is a great start: Dopamine triggers skeletal muscle tone by activating D1-like receptors on somatic motoneurons. - PubMed - NCBI
Things to consider for increased dopamine function and muscle function:
Vitamin d: One of the obvious ones that increase dopamine receptor function as well as general dopamine levels. It's much better to get this from sunlight than supplements, but if you do use supplements topical application is the way to go. Low vitamin d greatly inhibits muscle function.
Vitamin B1 or Thiamine: First off thiamine is known to reduce muscle soreness. Its effects on dopamine is also very impressive as thiamin triphosphate has been shown to increase dopamine levels in the brain by 1400%: The Beneficial Role of Thiamine in Parkinson Disease - Lương - 2013 - CNS Neuroscience & Therapeutics - Wiley Online Library The effects of thiamin and its phosphate esters on dopamine release in the rat striatum. - PubMed - NCBI . The kind of thiamine matters here as thiamine monophosphate showed no increases in brain dopamine levels and thiamine diphosphate showed 249% increases in dopamine. This is probably due to each type's ability to cross the blood brain barrier. That being said sulbutiamine, a synthetic form of thiamine (basically thiamine that is very good at crossing the blood brain barrier) has been shown to decrease dopamine in certain areas of the brain. So perhaps the synthetic form has different effects, or thiamine just effects different parts of the brain differently (more likely). For sulbutiamine is still associated with some pro dopamine effects like increased libido despite such research. I don't know how Thiamine HCL (haidut's energin) compares, I only know that there are several synthetic thiamine versions with a high bioavailbility.
Shilajit: A substance similar to a herb that has been used for a very long time in ayurvedic medicine. It is well studied and increases dopamine levels in the brain, general vitality, healing rate, androgen production, and much more. It does however contain a reasonable amount of iron but no negative effects regarding the iron content was shown in this study: Evaluation of safety profile of black shilajit after 91 days repeated administration in rats .
Vitamin B6: Its well known as a way to increase dopamine Effect of vitamin B-6 nutrition on the levels of dopamine, dopamine metabolites, dopa decarboxylase activity, tyrosine, and GABA in the developing ... - PubMed - NCBI .

Get back to me if none of these more basic solutions help.
Also what ADD medication are you taking?

Bro i have a very stupid question which might sound wrong in some aspects of biology but i hope you understand the gist of it.
So dopamine is made from tyrosine (which is also used for making thyroid hormones ) which is turn is made from phenylalanine. Now , in cases of adequate protein intake or even malfunctioning enzymes which convert one amino acids to other , when you say "something that increases dopamine massively for e.g meth" , can that substance inhibit thyroid due to preferential use of tyrosine more towards L-Dopa synthesis and away from thyroid hormones ?

 

[Jsaute21]

20 mg every few months... imo its good for breaking out of a "rut"

armodafinil and Bromantane would be the only others with noticeable dopaminergic effects without any kind of sedative qualitys in my experience

Makes sense. Which brands tyrosine & Dex do you use? Pure bulk?

 

[Constatine]

@Constatine which pro dopamine supplements do you feel have had the most comprehensive benefits since experimenting?

@Stryker how often did you take dexamphetamine? Did you take any less intense supplements than dex such as tyrosine and others that had noticeable pro dopamine effects?

For me thiamine and sunlight seems to have the biggest impact on dopaminergic signaling. Everything else just seems like a mild boost.

Bro i have a very stupid question which might sound wrong in some aspects of biology but i hope you understand the gist of it.
So dopamine is made from tyrosine (which is also used for making thyroid hormones ) which is turn is made from phenylalanine. Now , in cases of adequate protein intake or even malfunctioning enzymes which convert one amino acids to other , when you say "something that increases dopamine massively for e.g meth" , can that substance inhibit thyroid due to preferential use of tyrosine more towards L-Dopa synthesis and away from thyroid hormones ?

Not a stupid question at all. I don't think the mechanism is a lack of tryosine (as direct administration of dopamine inhibited free thyroid) but dopamine is inversely correlated with thyroid status. I don't really know what to make of this relationship as its a strange and complicated one. Maybe someone can email Peat about this.

 

[Hgreen56]

I'm younger as well so I cannot speak from experience, I can only be theoretical.
Dopamine does have a direct effect on muscle function and tone, so increasing it via more natural means is a great start: Dopamine triggers skeletal muscle tone by activating D1-like receptors on somatic motoneurons. - PubMed - NCBI
Things to consider for increased dopamine function and muscle function:
Vitamin d: One of the obvious ones that increase dopamine receptor function as well as general dopamine levels. It's much better to get this from sunlight than supplements, but if you do use supplements topical application is the way to go. Low vitamin d greatly inhibits muscle function.
Vitamin B1 or Thiamine: First off thiamine is known to reduce muscle soreness. Its effects on dopamine is also very impressive as thiamin triphosphate has been shown to increase dopamine levels in the brain by 1400%: The Beneficial Role of Thiamine in Parkinson Disease - Lương - 2013 - CNS Neuroscience & Therapeutics - Wiley Online Library The effects of thiamin and its phosphate esters on dopamine release in the rat striatum. - PubMed - NCBI . The kind of thiamine matters here as thiamine monophosphate showed no increases in brain dopamine levels and thiamine diphosphate showed 249% increases in dopamine. This is probably due to each type's ability to cross the blood brain barrier. That being said sulbutiamine, a synthetic form of thiamine (basically thiamine that is very good at crossing the blood brain barrier) has been shown to decrease dopamine in certain areas of the brain. So perhaps the synthetic form has different effects, or thiamine just effects different parts of the brain differently (more likely). For sulbutiamine is still associated with some pro dopamine effects like increased libido despite such research. I don't know how Thiamine HCL (haidut's energin) compares, I only know that there are several synthetic thiamine versions with a high bioavailbility.
Shilajit: A substance similar to a herb that has been used for a very long time in ayurvedic medicine. It is well studied and increases dopamine levels in the brain, general vitality, healing rate, androgen production, and much more. It does however contain a reasonable amount of iron but no negative effects regarding the iron content was shown in this study: Evaluation of safety profile of black shilajit after 91 days repeated administration in rats .
Vitamin B6: Its well known as a way to increase dopamine Effect of vitamin B-6 nutrition on the levels of dopamine, dopamine metabolites, dopa decarboxylase activity, tyrosine, and GABA in the developing ... - PubMed - NCBI .

Get back to me if none of these more basic solutions help.
Also what ADD medication are you taking?

So what you are saying is that every b1 supplement is lowering dopamine. (except sulbutiamine, but nowhere available or illegal)
And only b1 that increase dopamine with 249% is thiamine diphosphate and is only found in food?

 

[Nemo]

For me thiamine and sunlight seems to have the biggest impact on dopaminergic signaling. Everything else just seems like a mild boost.


Not a stupid question at all. I don't think the mechanism is a lack of tryosine (as direct administration of dopamine inhibited free thyroid) but dopamine is inversely correlated with thyroid status. I don't really know what to make of this relationship as its a strange and complicated one. Maybe someone can email Peat about this.

I was gonna say, I fixed sore muscles and joints with thyroid. Sounds like a thyroid issue to me.

 

[Beastmode]

At 42 years old and getting back to training everyday, I surprisingly don't get sore much anymore. Doing the fundamental stuff Peat suggests nutrient wise is the game changer. At my age, I do supplement with pregnenolone (100 mg) and dhea (about 5 mg) per day. Outside of those, T3, occasional aspirin and k2 are helpful when I feel I need them.

I got more sore in my 20's than in my 40's now. Pretty wild.

@Hans makes solid points on carb intake. I think for myself it has really improved recovery/regeneration. Over 400 g per day now.

 

[Hgreen56]

At 42 years old and getting back to training everyday, I surprisingly don't get sore much anymore. Doing the fundamental stuff Peat suggests nutrient wise is the game changer. At my age, I do supplement with pregnenolone (100 mg) and dhea (about 5 mg) per day. Outside of those, T3, occasional aspirin and k2 are helpful when I feel I need them.

I got more sore in my 20's than in my 40's now. Pretty wild.

@Hans makes solid points on carb intake. I think for myself it has really improved recovery/regeneration. Over 400 g per day now.

consist of?

 

[Beastmode]

consist of?

fruits, honey, sugar, masa harina, sorbet (on occasion,) mexican coke (on occasion,) OJ and apple juice.

 

[Inaut]

Methylene blue and baking soda are sure ways for me to train with no pain or aches (unless I do something stupid)