Some Thoughts On Avocadoes

tyw

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But even eating coconut oil and grass fed butter still gives you pufa that builds up. Pufa depletion is impossible, unless you own a laboratory and pay someone to remove it from your food.

Ray Peat on the myth of PUFA depletion and making our own fats

Total Sidenote: Copha here in Australia is hydrogenated coconut oil ;) ... but contains soy lecithin ...

Anyway, if we're talking about near zero levels of PUFA in the body, that's definitely not possible, and we need some level of PUFA.

The real question is whether or not organisms should rely on dietary PUFA to get the required amount of PUFA, or rely on endogenous synthesis and endogenous regulatory pathways to determine the required amount of PUFA.

NOTE: the "required amount" is going to vary by organism. Clearly, a hibernating bear needs much more PUFA than an active human. If the bear didn't have that PUFA, they couldn't slow their metabolic rate down to the levels required to survive a winter.

The Bear would need to eat additional dietary PUFA to survive the winter.​

Peat would then likely argue that the amounts of PUFA in dietary sources is almost always in excess of the required amount for healthy human function.

The corollary is that most standard diets lead to an excess of accumulation of PUFA.

The term "PUFA depletion" then refers to any set of actions with leads to the minimisation of PUFA to the least amounts that the body "decides is required" (which could be variable depending on many factors).

We should then think of dietary PUFA as being part of PUFA flux -- PUFAs can and will get used and accumulated at various rates, and it is the contention of this community that PUFA dietary inputs should be minimised as far as possible.

Sidenote: I have a hunch that other nutrients in eggs, like the Vitamin E, allow for better discrimination in PUFA use. I am still not 100% clear on these mechanics, but did hint in my previous blog post that I'm looking into it wrt Birds, Bats, and Naked Mole Rats.​

....
 
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Mufasa

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Total Sidenote: Copha here in Australia is hydrogenated coconut oil ;) ... but contains soy lecithin ...

Anyway, if we're talking about near zero levels of PUFA in the body, that's definitely not possible, and we need some level of PUFA.

The real question is whether or not organisms should rely on dietary PUFA to get the required amount of PUFA, or rely on endogenous synthesis and endogenous regulatory pathways to determine the required amount of PUFA.

NOTE: the "required amount" is going to vary by organism. Clearly, a hibernating bear needs much more PUFA than an active human. If the bear didn't have that PUFA, they couldn't slow their metabolic rate down to the levels required to survive a winter.

The Bear would need to eat additional dietary PUFA to survive the winter.​

Peat would then likely argue that the amounts of PUFA in dietary sources is almost always in excess of the required amount for healthy human function.

The corollary is that most standard diets lead to an excess of accumulation of PUFA.

The term "PUFA depletion" then refers to any set of actions with leads to the minimisation of PUFA to the least amounts that the body "decides is required" (which could be variable depending on many factors).

We should then think of dietary PUFA as being part of PUFA flux -- PUFAs can and will get used and accumulated at various rates, and it is the contention of this community that PUFA dietary inputs should be minimised as far as possible.

Sidenote: I have a hunch that other nutrients in eggs, like the Vitamin E, allow for better discrimination in PUFA use. I am still not 100% clear on these mechanics, but did hint in my previous blog post that I'm looking into it wrt Birds, Bats, and Naked Mole Rats.​

....

Ray Peat doesnt say there is a required amount of PUFA, he says that they are not required at all, did you read his work on PUFA?
 

tyw

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Ray Peat doesnt say there is a required amount of PUFA, he says that they are not required at all, did you read his work on PUFA?

Whether or not Peat claims that there is a required amount of PUFA or not doesn't matter ;)

What matters is the observation that organisms can and will regulate the amount of PUFA that is present in their body, even when no dietary PUFA is provided through the diet. PUFA is subject to endogenous regulation, and each organism will determine how much, and where those PUFAs go.

I provide evidence in my DHA article, that it is clear that humans can and will control the amount of DHA they synthesise -- Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)

Similarly, animals that are subject to cold clearly start to synthesise PUFA (as seen by both increases in elongase activity, as well as absolute amounts accumulated in tissues).

Clearly there is some need for PUFA in the human brain. Not the levels which the mainstream advocates, but even the proposed 5g of DHA in the brain is "some PUFA".

----

On the flip side, we see animals like Parrots and Naked Mole Rats actively exclude PUFA from their mitochondrial membranes, despite eating a high PUFA diet. This is a unique characteristic of these animals.

Example study (which I want to feature in my next blog post :bookworm:) -- 'Oxidation-Resistant Membrane Phospholipids Can Explain Longevity Differences Among the Longest-Living Rodents and Similarly-Sized Mice' (Hulbert et. al., 2006)

Indeed, comparative differences in DHA content between mice and naked mole-rats (that mice have 9 times more DHA) correspond well, albeit inversely, with the 8- to 9-fold observed difference in longevity

DHA (22:6 n-3) is the fatty acid most susceptible toperoxidation, being 320 times more prone to peroxidationthan is the monounsaturated oleic acid (18:1 n-9) and 8 timesmore susceptible than is the n-6 linoleic acid (18:2 n-6)

The n-3/n-6 ratio for skeletal muscle phospholipids from rats is 0.36, whereas from pigeons it is 0.18 and from naked mole-rats it is 0.15.

Similarly, the value of the ratio for liver mitochondrial membranes is 0.46 for rats, compared to 0.22 for pigeons and 0.18 for naked mole-rats.


This was with the background of feeding the exact same high PUFA diet to both rats and naked mole rats. The only way to explain this is that each organism "decides" how and where to use PUFA, depending on various factors.

What those various factors are, will have to wait for a full multi-thousand word blog post :bag:

----

Peat generally calls for Zero Dietary PUFA as the ideal case. I agree.

.....
 

gilson dantas

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Avocados are very easy to find here on Brazil. I used avocados for many years. Before to read and study R Peat.
Now I quit from avocadoes.
I agree completely with the statement of tyw; and blossom and others.
our usual diet already have many toxics lipids [Ufas, mufas]; we can´t avoid it [on eggs, meat etc], so it is better do not include spontaneously that oils on our diet [eating avocados for instance]; specially if we have a degenerative disease.
And about Josh Rubin, the post of Westside PUFAs sayd everything he appears to be what we here calls ,on world of medicine and science, an eclectic opportunist.
 
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Mufasa

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Whether or not Peat claims that there is a required amount of PUFA or not doesn't matter ;)

What matters is the observation that organisms can and will regulate the amount of PUFA that is present in their body, even when no dietary PUFA is provided through the diet. PUFA is subject to endogenous regulation, and each organism will determine how much, and where those PUFAs go.

I provide evidence in my DHA article, that it is clear that humans can and will control the amount of DHA they synthesise -- Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)

Similarly, animals that are subject to cold clearly start to synthesise PUFA (as seen by both increases in elongase activity, as well as absolute amounts accumulated in tissues).

Clearly there is some need for PUFA in the human brain. Not the levels which the mainstream advocates, but even the proposed 5g of DHA in the brain is "some PUFA".

----

On the flip side, we see animals like Parrots and Naked Mole Rats actively exclude PUFA from their mitochondrial membranes, despite eating a high PUFA diet. This is a unique characteristic of these animals.

Example study (which I want to feature in my next blog post :bookworm:) -- 'Oxidation-Resistant Membrane Phospholipids Can Explain Longevity Differences Among the Longest-Living Rodents and Similarly-Sized Mice' (Hulbert et. al., 2006)

Indeed, comparative differences in DHA content between mice and naked mole-rats (that mice have 9 times more DHA) correspond well, albeit inversely, with the 8- to 9-fold observed difference in longevity

DHA (22:6 n-3) is the fatty acid most susceptible toperoxidation, being 320 times more prone to peroxidationthan is the monounsaturated oleic acid (18:1 n-9) and 8 timesmore susceptible than is the n-6 linoleic acid (18:2 n-6)

The n-3/n-6 ratio for skeletal muscle phospholipids from rats is 0.36, whereas from pigeons it is 0.18 and from naked mole-rats it is 0.15.

Similarly, the value of the ratio for liver mitochondrial membranes is 0.46 for rats, compared to 0.22 for pigeons and 0.18 for naked mole-rats.


This was with the background of feeding the exact same high PUFA diet to both rats and naked mole rats. The only way to explain this is that each organism "decides" how and where to use PUFA, depending on various factors.

What those various factors are, will have to wait for a full multi-thousand word blog post :bag:

----

Peat generally calls for Zero Dietary PUFA as the ideal case. I agree.

.....

If it is so clear that the human brains needs PUFA why then does a smart man like Ray Peat things we do not need PUFA in the brain?

Oh wait, his brain probably has too little PUFA to understand that, Im so stupid
 

tyw

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If it is so clear that the human brains needs PUFA why then does a smart man like Ray Peat things we do not need PUFA in the brain?

Oh wait, his brain probably has too little PUFA to understand that, Im so stupid

The focus has always been on "Peat's Claims", never on "Ray Peat the person". Focusing the discussion on Ray Peat the person is not useful at all.

The topic was then regarding the levels of PUFA that are found in organisms. Clearly, some levels of PUFA exists to varying degree in tissues. The Brain has some PUFA, even if the organism does not eat any PUFA at all. Therefore, the only conclusion that can be made is that PUFA is present and under some sort of endogenous regulation.

.....
 

gilson dantas

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THis is very important: "The focus has always been on "Peat's Claims", never on "Ray Peat the person". Focusing the discussion on Ray Peat the person is not useful at all".
THe conclusion about PUFAS is, also: we don´t need exogenous PUFA; if we are fighting by the healthy state, we must stay away from exogenous PUFA, the best way possible;
 

schultz

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The focus has always been on "Peat's Claims", never on "Ray Peat the person". Focusing the discussion on Ray Peat the person is not useful at all.

The topic was then regarding the levels of PUFA that are found in organisms. Clearly, some levels of PUFA exists to varying degree in tissues. The Brain has some PUFA, even if the organism does not eat any PUFA at all. Therefore, the only conclusion that can be made is that PUFA is present and under some sort of endogenous regulation.

.....

You are right about the goal not being zero PUFA. This is actually impossible since we make our own PUFA from oleic acid when our dietary intake of omega-6 is low (which I'm sure you already know). I never thought the goal was zero PUFA but that the goal was low PUFA so that we can make more mead acid (a PUFA), which seems to have a lot of benefits. The amount of mead acid we make begins to grow exponentially right around when dietary PUFA gets below 1% of the diet. This is about 2.77g for someone who eats 2,500 calories. Obviously there are a lot of variables though.

Ray once made a comment in one of the Politics and Science episodes. When asked about Chris Masterjohn he said he thought his work was very good, though his only criticism was that he continues to believe in dietary PUFA as essential (in the very small amounts that Masterjohn thinks are necessary, which is very small if you've read his "PUFA report paper") Admittedly I paraphrased what Ray said and potentially understood it incorrectly.

There is only one reason I can think of to argue about it, and that is for fun. I am really just curious as to whether or not we need any. However, I will always get enough in my diet (and mine is very low, today it was 1.4g) since I will always eat fruit and all the foods that I love.
 
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the only reason I think we need *some* is that every root, tuber and vegetable has a little in it.
 

tyw

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You are right about the goal not being zero PUFA. This is actually impossible since we make our own PUFA from oleic acid when our dietary intake of omega-6 is low (which I'm sure you already know). I never thought the goal was zero PUFA but that the goal was low PUFA so that we can make more mead acid (a PUFA), which seems to have a lot of benefits. The amount of mead acid we make begins to grow exponentially right around when dietary PUFA gets below 1% of the diet. This is about 2.77g for someone who eats 2,500 calories. Obviously there are a lot of variables though.

Ray once made a comment in one of the Politics and Science episodes. When asked about Chris Masterjohn he said he thought his work was very good, though his only criticism was that he continues to believe in dietary PUFA as essential (in the very small amounts that Masterjohn thinks are necessary, which is very small if you've read his "PUFA report paper") Admittedly I paraphrased what Ray said and potentially understood it incorrectly.

There is only one reason I can think of to argue about it, and that is for fun. I am really just curious as to whether or not we need any. However, I will always get enough in my diet (and mine is very low, today it was 1.4g) since I will always eat fruit and all the foods that I love.

Yup, the point about Mead acid is again, more evidence that the body wants some level of PUFA around for whatever reason.

I've speculated that this is due to the same mechanic that gives rise to the Cholesterol exclusionary behaviour that we see exhibited by PUFAs on cell membranes -- lipoproteins and PUFAs are highly phobic of each other, and this means that strategically placing PUFAs in certain membrane locations will force lipoproteins away from those locations, and hopefully to elsewhere where these lipoproteins are needed.

There seems to be some "double bond frequency" given off by PUFAs that seems to be useful in biology.

That may also explain why the highest activity tissues have the most membrane PUFAs, in order to take advantage of this exclusionary behaviour. Such tissues would include the Brain and other nervous system tissue, and if you look at organisms other than humans, you'll find very high activity muscles to contain more membrane PUFA as well (eg: hummingbird flight muscles)

Note that these PUFAs are usually on the outermost cell membranes of eukaryotic cells. I'm not convinced that such carefully embedded PUFAs are the bulk of the problem.

ie: when we say "high PUFA", we're usually referring to free-circulating PUFAs that are uncontrolled.

However, I'm still of the opinion that PUFAs in mitochondrial membranes (arguably prokaryotic) is a bad thing. The fact that we see mitochondrial PUFA levels consistently deplete when PUFA is excluded from the diet, seems to suggest that organisms don't exactly need PUFA in that particular structure for good function.​

I need to emphasise that the need for PUFA is going to be highly variable depending on which tissue we are concerned about. Not all tissues treat PUFA in the same way, and the damaging effects of PUFA will vary depending on which tissue accumulates this PUFA.

Personally, that is why I'd rather let the body figure out how much PUFA it needs, synthesise it as needed, and then put it exactly where it wants the PUFA to be, rather than consume PUFAs and have them either circulating freely or potentially mobilised from storage.

.....
 

aquaman

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So when Ray is interviewed about eating PUFA in the form of Salmon and Avocado, he says it's a good balanced meal.

You guys say it should be avoided based on his work.

Where's the disconnect here?

Agree with this:
... and here is when blind following interpretation of Peat's quotes enters in strongly biased area.
 

lindsay

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yes, but why not stick to foods that are low in PUFAs with a few exceptions where those foods are irreplaceable.

For instance I try to keep my iron down, but I eat liver for the enormous benefits I can't get from any other food.

For PUFAs, for me, eggs and oysters are an exception. I can avoid fatty fish and nuts because they are easily replaced by foods that provide high nutrition and don't have PUFAs.

I think this is completely relative. For instance, Tuna is a good example of a fish that is lower in fat (compared to salmon) and it has a great nutritional profile. PUFA and SFA are approximately the same in Tuna, which is "mostly" MUFA. I was looking at Tuna the other day on cronometer and it has quite a lot of Vitamin A and lots of B12 and a good amount of selenium, not to mention other B-Vitamins. In fact, it's got a slightly better nutritional profile than steak (Zinc aside) and personally, I find raw tuna much easier to digest than beef. Of course, liver takes the medal, but there is a balance to everything if digestion is of key importance (not to mention taste).

I started feeling better when I began tuning in and listening to my cravings - I get both regular cravings for beef and sushi, but I only like raw tuna. The sushi cravings are so intense when they come that I cannot think of eating any other food. And I think it has to do with the Iodine. Fish is a great natural source of Iodine (as is the seaweed in the sushi rolls). When I was supplementing Iodine, I stopped craving sushi entirely. And for a long time I avoided beef because of Iron, but lately I feel I need to eat some beef from time to time - whether liver or steak. Maybe I'm a crazy hippy, but tuning into what my body craves has been very useful to me. Usually it leads to many "Peat" oriented foods. But when it doesn't, I don't ignore it. And frankly, I can't because I get those crazy female cravings ;-)
 
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lindsay

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Sidenote: I have a hunch that other nutrients in eggs, like the Vitamin E, allow for better discrimination in PUFA use. I am still not 100% clear on these mechanics, but did hint in my previous blog post that I'm looking into it wrt Birds, Bats, and Naked Mole Rats.

Most sources of PUFA also contain good amounts of Vitamin E. Nuts/seeds, fish, olive oil, egg yolks, etc. The amount is usually roughly half the amount in mg as the amount of PUFA in grams, depending on the source. For instance, according to Cronometer, 4 oz. of raw tuna contains 1.6 grams of PUFA and 1.1 mg of Vitamin E. One tbsp. of extra virgin olive oil contains 1.4 grams of PUFA and 1.9 mg of Vitamin E (an even better ratio). Sunflower seeds, while loaded with PUFA, also contain almost as many mg in Vitamin E. That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to eat a few peanuts, some tuna or some olives, but eating mass produced industry oils seems far more dangerous to me than eating the actual source as it would be found in nature. But that's just my opinion ;-)
 
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Mufasa

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I think this is completely relative. For instance, Tuna is a good example of a fish that is lower in fat (compared to salmon) and it has a great nutritional profile. PUFA and SFA are approximately the same in Tuna, which is "mostly" MUFA. I was looking at Tuna the other day on cronometer and it has quite a lot of Vitamin A and lots of B12 and a good amount of selenium, not to mention other B-Vitamins. In fact, it's got a slightly better nutritional profile than steak (Zinc aside) and personally, I find raw tuna much easier to digest than beef. Of course, liver takes the medal, but there is a balance to everything if digestion is of key importance (not to mention taste).

I started feeling better when I began tuning in and listening to my cravings - I get both regular cravings for beef and sushi, but I only like raw tuna. The sushi cravings are so intense when they come that I cannot think of eating any other food. And I think it has to do with the Iodine. Fish is a great natural source of Iodine (as is the seaweed in the sushi rolls). When I was supplementing Iodine, I stopped craving sushi entirely. And for a long time I avoided beef because of Iron, but lately I feel I need to eat some beef from time to time - whether liver or steak. Maybe I'm a crazy hippy, but tuning into what my body craves has been very useful to me. Usually it leads to many "Peat" oriented foods. But when it doesn't, I don't ignore it. And frankly, I can't because I get those crazy female cravings ;-)

Yeees, I sometimes eat sushi (with avocadoes) or nuts or other high PUFA stuff, and say out loud: "I can handle you PUFA , give it to me, come on, let's see who is stronger. No molecule can get this body down."

It is just sometimes fun to break patterns I think. I'm not going to eat PUFA like crazy, because I think that will seriously hinder my healing progress, but getting to rigid will only raise serotonin I think.
 
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Apparently 19% PUFA qualifies as not that bad.
 

Ukall

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but getting to rigid will only raise serotonin I think.
True.
I think just avoiding oils with an insane amount of PUFAs, it is probably a good start and the easiest thing to do.
Eating some fatty fish or an avocado once in a while, it is probably less harmful than eating french fries once in a while IMO (I can be wrong).
Now, if someone wants to do a next level avoidance of PUFAs, yes, then I agree that any food that has a good amount of PUFAs should be avoided.
 

Agent207

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Yup, the point about Mead acid is again, more evidence that the body wants some level of PUFA around for whatever reason.

I don't see the correlation between those factors. Excess PUFAs inhibit Mead acid synthesis, which is what should be ocurring in ideal situation. (Considering excess >1% total calorie intake).

Btw, does mead acid anti-inflammatory effect work by immunosuppression?
 
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milk_lover

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My advice would be you can still function and live happily without fatty fish and avocados.
 

Ukall

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My advice would be you can still function and live happily without fatty fish and avocados.
That's also true. Unless they are the only food available around to meet your nutritional needs :p
I mean, the most important is to find whatever it works better for your body. If fatty fish and avocados happen to be some of those foods, maybe avoiding them wouldn't be a smart idea, in my opinion.
 

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