Some SOLID Bro Science On Balding

[Zigzag]

its one massive paradox. All we know for sure is there is calcification and there is fibrosis eventually. We know the body signals the hairs to die.

i wish we had more geniuses on this forum. If i was a professor at Stanford id dedicate an entire program on balding and cure it with my students lol

My discord group has even tried experimental peptides that fully regrew hair in rats. Nothing really worked. This is just a massive conundrum.

 

[GorillaHead]

My discord group has even tried experimental peptides that fully regrew hair in rats. Nothing really worked. This is just a massive conundrum.

Check this out @Zigzag


This is super interesting. These are two exact twins. Same DNA.

One on the top and one the bottom. The photos on the right are their scalps after treatment.


But what super interesting here is they stared treatment at the same time but their baseline is different.

This proves that male pattern baldness is most definitely modulated by environment. I wish they took blood serum hormones. And tissue hormone levels.

 

[Zigzag]

Check this out @Zigzag


This is super interesting. These are two exact twins. Same DNA.

One on the top and one the bottom. The photos on the right are their scalps after treatment.


But what super interesting here is they stared treatment at the same time but their baseline is different.

This proves that male pattern baldness is most definitely modulated by environment. I wish they took blood serum hormones. And tissue hormone levels.

I wonder why they didn't do blood tests... That's the first thing they should have done. Environment is definitely contributing to this mess.

 

[Lucas]

IS THIS DIFUSSE THINING FROM LOW THYROID OR JUST MPB?

 

[GorillaHead]

IS THIS DIFUSSE THINING FROM LOW THYROID OR JUST MPB?

Hard to say. Do I see any miniaturization ?

thyroid issues would give u low hair count and give a thinner overall appearance.

mpb would be characterized by thinner individual follicles and lower hair count. .

 

[Lucas]

Hard to say. Do I see any miniaturization ?

thyroid issues would give u low hair count and give a thinner overall appearance.

mpb would be characterized by thinner individual follicles and lower hair count. .

My fringe still grows 1 cm each month. But my hair is thinning, so you can see the scalp.

 

[TheSir]

I see the dilemma. The information is seemingly contradictory. Though I believe it can be made to make sense.

One way to solve the puzzle:

1. You need lessened blood flow for calcification to take place.
2. However, calcification by itself does not cause hair loss, rather the hormonal reaction to calcification does.
3. When you block the hormonal reaction, hair loss is reversed, even though calcification is still present.

This would be why dermarolling and hypoxia both can help hairloss, even though dermarolling counters hypoxia (dermarolling increases blood flow and thus oxygenation too). Whereas hypoxia simply blocks the inflow of hormones, dermarolling dissolves the calcification altogether, eliminating the need for hormonal inflow in the first place.

In this sense, blood flow would be less important than androgenic activity when it comes to the actual mechanism that kills the follicle. Yet, at the same time reduced blood flow is required for creating conditions in which this mechanism can be triggered.

Is there a hole in this logic somewhere?

 

[Deleted member 5487]

Among the raypeat community and in line with Danny Roddys theory on hair-loss. Balding is essentially fibrosis.

We know from biopsies that balding scalp has perifollicular fibrosis.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pubmedPerifollicular fibrosis: pathogenetic role in androgenetic ... - NCBI

Essentially the prognosis is hyperkeratinization. Collagen bundles dense up the scalp skin and result in harder skin that essentially suffocates hair follicles from their own blood flow. This is an epigenetic change as a result of inflammation.

Why women don’t bald as often as men do is clear and that’s due to aromatase. Now when I speak about aromatase it’s important not to think of aromatase and estrogen as synonymous.

It’s also important to understand that hormones in the skin are different than hormones in serum. They don’t always align with one another.

We know from a very powerful study that in a balding man the back of his head has higher levels of aromatase and in a women the front scalp has high levels of aromatase 4 fold. Androgenetic Alopecia in Women - ScienceDirect

Skin in men is very interesting because it has been proven that men have thicker skin then women. Male versus female skin: What dermatologists and cosmeticians should know

This is no doubt due to androgens. The positive is our skin tends to age better, however increased localized androgens will leads to overly dense skin.

Men who are fully bald have shiny heads because the skin is hardened and fibrotic. When I say hard I am not talking so hard it’s like rock. It’s harder than it was before.

What I am trying to lead up to is the fact that elastic softer skin is ideal for hair conditions to grow. We can see that in Frontal Fibrosing alopecia hair is almost completely destroyed. What’s interesting is antiandrogens have been shown to improve conditions of front fibrosing alopecia.
Clearly cause skin will slow down it’s fibrosis process.

Finasteride-mediated hair regrowth and reversal of atrophy in a patient with frontal fibrosing alopecia

Hair growth is about the balance between 5ar and aromatase. When men get older they tend to develop more body hair because there is higher levels of aromatase developing. Aromatase grows hair but not by itself it needs androgens to grow.

• Body hair is essentially a balanced ratio of aromatase and androgens. ( young men are androgen dominant.). Women don’t experience body hair because they are aromatase dominant.
• While male pattern baldness is a ratio of high androgens to very little aromatase. The scalp seems to be immune to the mild increase of serum aromatase older men experience it still locally has higher levels of androgens. That’s the biggest mystery.

It’s possible gravity has something to do with it or maybe the lack of vitamin D synthesis. Interestingly severity of scleroderma (skin fibrosis disease) is inversely correlated with vdr. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC5042230Low vitamin D status in systemic sclerosis and the impact on ...

Vdr has direct action in androgen sensitivity. Not everyone benefits from vitamin D supplementation as not everyone has the same sensitivity and there are tons of polymorphism however, genes associated with vdr have been linked to baldness.

In rats that were sent to space for some odd reason their thin skinned out but what happened was their hair grew like crazy which is interesting because there is no gravity in space. news.softpedia.com › News › Science › Sci PryHair Grows Faster and Thicker in Space, Experiments Reveal

A shot in the dark we could say that gravity is necessary for thicker skin.

In a documented scenario of two twins one who took dutasteride and one who didn’t we can see the man who was on dutasteride his hair is perfect while his twin receded to like a Norwood 3. But let’s not take a look at the hair but rather their skin. The twin on dutasteride has rosier cheeks like a women! Why? Because he is on anti androgens and he has thinner skin now. We also can infer that the nose on the twin of the dutasteride user also has a slightly thinner less bulbous nose, again this is related to thinner skin.
See attached photo


Solutions and Why finasteride and dutasteride doesn’t always work.


Many people who get on finasteride find out that their hairloss hasn’t stopped falling out or their hair stays the same. They don’t see regrowth.

Now this is where I inject some bro science. Since scalp fibrosis is an epigenetic change induced by the body there is a system that works to change the scalp. The hair doesn’t just actually die because the skin is pushing on it. Rather hair follicle in these dense fibrotic conditions are told to die off with dht. That’s the signal to tell the hair to move out it’s time for some skin. So when you get on finasteride (inhibits 5ar2 and inhibits 5ar1 but significantly less) you are stopping one part of the process because 5ar2 isn’t really found in the skin. It’s in the follicle. Now when you get on dutasteride you tend to see way more success as shown by studies! people think it’s because you are inhibiting more dht! Yes that’s correct. The dht that’s found in the skin 5ar1 ! So now with duatsteride you are targeting two pathways to balding scalp.

You are stopping the signal that tells the hair to move and you are reversing the ***t condition of follicular fibrosis the hair is surrounded by.

The thing is if aromatase doesn’t increase sufficiently in the scalp skin what happens is testosterone will be the weaker androgen that will slowly cause fibrosis in the skin because it will stay in the scalp in high levels since 5ar is inhibited and aromatase enzymes are low. All about the ratio.

In the end it’s all about breaking fibrosis and inhibiting. The issue with using supplements like K2 for example to break down fibrosis is they essentially would be fighting a losing battle hormones are the main powerful signals in the body. The hormones in the scalp are inducing the fibrosis so no matter how much anti fibrosis supplements you take they aren’t strong enough to fight back an action that significantly much stronger. In fact supplementing may result in more testosterone only to create more fibrosis as you support the condition.


So what solutions do we have? (Maintenance only)


SKIN STRETCHING. will help with fibrosis.

Stretching Reduces Skin Thickness and Improves Subcutaneous Tissue Mobility in a Murine Model of Systemic Sclerosis

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pmc › articles › PMC4740347Standardized Scalp Massage Results in Increased Hair ...


This theoretically should work and many have found that it has. However the tedious amount of work and consistent work necessary to actually make a difference is realistically not ideal.


INDUCING AROMATASE LOCALLY

This is something I personally have been researching. Right now I just started on a dexamethasone topical treatment. Be warned that there could be unforeseen side effects and until I finish my experiment I have no idea this will work. Glucorticoids can be very dangerous.


But what’s great about dexamethasone it does two things. It increases sensitivity to vdr and it increase aromatase transcription.

https://eje.bioscientifica.com/downloadpdf/journals/eje/152/4/1520619.pdf

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pubmedDexamethasone enhances vitamin D-24-hydroxylase ... - NCBI

Dexamethasone also happens to do things like thin the skin like other glucocorticoids and their overuse tends to lead to redness something that may be similar to what happens with anti androgen use like the rosy cheeks I discussed above. I believe it’s moderate use and cycling the and tapering is use is necessary to avoid serious consequences. We don’t want to really reduce skin thickness as much as just makes less dense and hard.

also dexa would not work orally as it’s affects on serum hormones and glands would be detrimental to hair growth.

LOCAL ANDROGEN INHIBITION

Ketocanazole and miconazole are two anti fungal drugs that can inhibit steroid genesis. These drugs will reduce testosterone in the scalp.

www.sciencedirect.com › science › article › piiEconazole and miconazole inhibit steroidogenesis and disrupt ...


All these mentioned solutions may not be powerful enough to put an end to MPB but they offer ways to target the problem from different angles without inhibiting our beloved and very necessary serum androgens.

In the end the biggest question we are left with is what are all the possible causes for skin fibrosis. What are the triggers? Gravity ? Tension? Cortisol? PUFA apparently tends to shoot up in the body like physically can’t remember where I read this.

I've been doing some serious testing. Over the last two years. What I have found in the last few weeks is changing my hair more than anything. Sadly it's not to peaty.
I will be putting a post together with pictures

 

[Deleted member 5487]

IS THIS DIFUSSE THINING FROM LOW THYROID OR JUST MPB?

That is thyroid and cortisol related. Not androgenic

 

[GorillaHead]

I see the dilemma. The information is seemingly contradictory. Though I believe it can be made to make sense.

One way to solve the puzzle:

1. You need lessened blood flow for calcification to take place.
2. However, calcification by itself does not cause hair loss, rather the hormonal reaction to calcification does.
3. When you block the hormonal reaction, hair loss is reversed, even though calcification is still present.

This would be why dermarolling and hypoxia both can help hairloss, even though dermarolling counters hypoxia (dermarolling increases blood flow and thus oxygenation too). Whereas hypoxia simply blocks the inflow of hormones, dermarolling dissolves the calcification altogether, eliminating the need for hormonal inflow in the first place.

In this sense, blood flow would be less important than androgenic activity when it comes to the actual mechanism that kills the follicle. Yet, at the same time reduced blood flow is required for creating conditions in which this mechanism can be triggered.

Is there a hole in this logic somewhere?

the only hole is why is there heightened androgenic activity in scalp skin the first place. I was looking at people with pagets disease which often presents as enlarged skull embossing. The men of course still have recede but since the head gets bigger it looks way worse. The women end up with massive foreheads but still intact norwood. The disease is due to malfunctions with osteoclasts

 

[tallglass13]

Mature hairline is still balding.

I don't think that's correct. Mature hairline, is exactly that, a male, mature hairline. Balding is actively losing hair. hence "ing" used to form present participles of verbs. or things that are actively happening.

 

[TheSir]

the only hole is why is there heightened androgenic activity in scalp skin the first place.

In case you missed, I asserted that the androgenic activity is a response (stress or repair) to calcification.

I've been doing some serious testing. Over the last two years. What I have found in the last few weeks is changing my hair more than anything. Sadly it's not to peaty.
I will be putting a post together with pictures

Sounds interesting, looking forward to it. Share the link in this thread so we don't miss it please.

 

[Lucas]

That is thyroid and cortisol related. Not androgenic

why?

 

[GorillaHead]

In case you missed, I asserted that the androgenic activity is a response (stress or repair) to calcification.



Sounds interesting, looking forward to it. Share the link in this thread so we don't miss it please.

Solid

Magnesium increases
Progesterone helps reduce calcium imbalance and fibrosis and dht.

i wonder if we all have chronic magnesium and low progesterone. I want to supplement to progesterone but i am worried it will just convert to other things

 

[ilhanxx]

its one massive paradox. All we know for sure is there is calcification and there is fibrosis eventually. We know the body signals the hairs to die.

i wish we had more geniuses on this forum. If i was a professor at Stanford id dedicate an entire program on balding and cure it with my students lol

Parallel your sayings, this guy says, he regrow a lot of hair with blocking lycra band

Kellige Son Nokta

 

[Zigzag]

Histogen Merges With Conatus Pharmaceuticals

 

[Orangeyouglad]

Solid

Magnesium increases
Progesterone helps reduce calcium imbalance and fibrosis and dht.

i wonder if we all have chronic magnesium and low progesterone. I want to supplement to progesterone but i am worried it will just convert to other things

I wondered the same thing about the magnesium. Im actually doing more bloodwork tomorrow so I’ll let you know if there’s anything that stands out.

Progesterone, at least for me, is not the issue. My Progesterone is actually high, confirmed on two tests, one slightly out of range.

What are you worried about Progesterone converting into? I’ve taken small amounts of progest-e just to try it. A drop in libido and erection quality, but a good sense of well-being.

 

[Orangeyouglad]

Histogen Merges With Conatus Pharmaceuticals

Fascinating. The pictures look promising. I wonder what the mechanism of action is behind that drug?

 

[Inaut]

I'd think it have to with the liver of some sort.... Two of the 3 things they were working on were related to liver disease and inflammation. I'm probably (certainly) wrong :s

 

[baccheion]

I wondered the same thing about the magnesium. Im actually doing more bloodwork tomorrow so I’ll let you know if there’s anything that stands out.

Progesterone, at least for me, is not the issue. My Progesterone is actually high, confirmed on two tests, one slightly out of range.

What are you worried about Progesterone converting into? I’ve taken small amounts of progest-e just to try it. A drop in libido and erection quality, but a good sense of well-being.

What about PTH, aldosterone, melatonin, IGF-1, DHEA, androgen receptor sensitivity, estradiol, prolactin, cortisol, DHT, testosterone, etc?