"Some Fruits, Including Bananas, Pineapples, And Tomatoes. "

[superhuman]

@Travis i never said it cant be done on a vegan diet but the guy you posted and other vegan athletes are consuming 5x the amount of protein you talk about. They consume as much or more then the regular body builders that eat meat. gorillas are not vegans, they eat bugs and other animal stuff.

 

[Travis]

They have only demonstrated that vegan protein is worse then animal protein so you need more total protein coming from vegan sources to match the same amount of grams from animal protein.

This isn't even true. True that seed storage proteins aren't fully digested and have net protein utilizations between 40–70% (because of the proline residues) but leaves, fruit, and potatoes have scores in the 80s and 90s—natural primate foods.

I'm starting to think you have an agenda because you're stating what are essentially myths. If you had actually been vegan, and 'love to learn' as you say, then you'd know that vegans don't have a low testosterone/estrogen ratio (quite the converse, really). It's almost as if you're somewhat irrationally trying to project the image that all vegans look like 'concentration camp victims' or something.

Still waiting for the mythological high‐protein liver 'estrogen detox' explanation.

 

[Wagner83]

Yeah that would be a good question to ask Ray.

 

[Travis]

gorillas are not vegans, they eat bugs and other animal stuff.

I'm sorry, I had meant to say either 'seasonal frugivores' or 'folivores:'

'Gorillas are seasonal frugivores or mixed frugivores/folivores; their diet shifts along a seasonal and interannual gradient at all low altitude sites, with high variability in dietary proportions of fleshy fruit. Overall, Bai Hokou gorillas consume ≥ 230 plant parts from 129 plant species, including 89 species of fruits (Remis, 1997a).' —Remis​

'Traditionally, gorillas were classified as folivores, yet 15 years of data on western lowland gorillas (Gorilla gorilla gorilla) show their diet to contain large quantities of foliage and fruit, and to vary both seasonally and annually.' —Remis

', and whose teeth are adapted for shearing leaves (Groves, 1986; Uchida, 1998).' —Remis

'Western lowland gorillas consume ripe fleshy fruits whenever available (Williamson et al., 1990). In these periods, their foraging strategies (Tutin et al., 1993a), ranging behavior and grouping patterns may converge with those of frugivorous chimpanzees (Remis, 1997b; Goldsmith, 1996). During months of fleshy fruit availability, western lowland gorilla diet consists of ≥ 50% and ≤ 90% fruit (Tutin et al., 1997; Remis, 1999). Despite the importance of fruit in their diet, diet shifts seasonally at all lowland gorilla sites. Consequently, they might be best referred to as seasonal frugivores (Tutin et al., 1991; Remis, 1997a). During periods of fleshy fruit scarcity, fibrous fruits become staple fallback foods and consumption of herbs, leaves and bark increases (Rogers et al., 1990). Leaf flush frequently occurs during nonfruiting seasons, and gorillas take advantage of high quality young leaves (Tutin and Fernandez, 1993b).' —Remis

'Proportions of fruit, herbs, leaves and bark in western lowland gorilla diet vary in response to rainfall and ripe fruit availability (Remis 1997a; Tutin et al., 1997). When fruit abundance is high at Bai Hokou, consumption of foliage declines, but during periods of low rainfall, when fruits are scarce, consumption of fleshy fruits is reduced.' —Remis​

​

The amount of insects they consume is so insignificant that the word 'insect' isn't even mentioned in the body of the text; this is a 30‐paged article:

Remis, M. J. "Nutritional aspects of western lowland gorilla (Gorilla gorilla gorilla) diet during seasons of fruit scarcity at Bai Hokou, Central African Republic." International Journal of Primatology (2001)​

 

[superhuman]

This isn't even true. True that seed storage proteins aren't fully digested and have net protein utilizations between 40–70% (because of the proline residues) but leaves, fruit, and potatoes have scores in the 80s and 90s—natural primate foods.

I'm starting to think you have an agenda because you're stating what are essentially myths. If you had actually been vegan, and 'love to learn' as you say, then you'd know that vegans don't have a low testosterone/estrogen ratio (quite the converse, really). It's almost as if you're somewhat irrationally trying to project the image that all vegans look like 'concentration camp victims' or something.

Still waiting for the mythological high‐protein liver 'estrogen detox' explanation.

Sure fruit, leaves and potatoes have high protein score but you need to eat tons to get the same amount that the studies provide is enough and as other vegans also eat. Which is around 1.6-2.8g protein /kg.

I never said vegans have lower testosterone to estrogen then others i just said i noticed it when i was vegan and many of the other people i was around had it as well. So i was asking you your thoughts on why this is or is not true.

The vegans that eat the way you are eating, so very low protein tend to look that way. I have not seen any vegan not looking like that almost. But the vegans that use the same macros like the high protein amount and all that stuff but just use vegan foods can look just as good, but again they eat tons of more protein etc.

 

[Amazoniac]

You are quoting median values, and even in those studies there is a great amount of range. The meta studies present more‐or‐less a mean of medians. You have to read each one to get a good feel for what's going on, because the biological value of food protein nitrogen can range from ~.30 to 1.00. This means a study using wheat would have a relatively high recommendation, an inflated figure when comparing to milk or leaves. This study here shows a net protein utilization of 0.63 for raw peas, and 0.37 for those heated to only 165°F.

Hey, I said this:

'The amount of protein needed for nitrogen balance is only 35‧g.' ―Travis
​

Thousands of subjects demonstrate this. But for more details, we have to take each study individually. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that much variance depends on (1) the food used, the (2) heat treatment, and the (3) methodology.

The reason to avoid excess methionine and tryptophan should be obvious by now.

I read a few classic nitrogen balance studies that indicated that a 180 pound person achieves balance at around 35 grams of protein per day.

A given guru achieves balance at 0.8g p/kg for example, ingesting something close to 60g, but then decides to add 40g of gelatin and notices wigI mean, wings growing on the back. How could that be? In theory the person would be getting an excess of protein. Nitrogen balance evaluation has its limitations, there are other factors beyond its balance. It can't be about subsistance.

 

[Amazoniac]

Like I said before, I'm not a meathead.

Just because we're primitives/sub-evolved that enjoy feeding pet tumors, doesn't mean that you have to add a disdaining tone to it. Also, beef jerky counts as meat.

 

[Travis]

Sure fruit, leaves and potatoes have high protein score but you need to eat tons to get the same amount that the studies provide is enough and as other vegans also eat. Which is around 1.6-2.8g protein /kg.

There are studies that show .5‧g/kg is enough.

I never said vegans have lower testosterone to estrogen then others i just said i noticed it when i was vegan and many of the other people i was around had it as well. So i was asking you your thoughts on why this is or is not true.

I don't think its true because the studies I saw showed higher testosterone levels in vegans. But as all serum steroids are concerned, this might not mean total amounts: The concentration of steroids in the blood also depends on the unsaturation of fatty acids present, the more unsaturated the fatty acid is less‐soluble the steroid is in it. This is why unsaturated fatty acids lower serum cholesterol; they do it by displacement, not by decreasing its synthesis. The total amount of androgens in the blood is also dependent of sex steroid binding globulin.

The vegans that eat the way you are eating, so very low protein tend to look that way. I have not seen any vegan not looking like that almost. But the vegans that use the same macros like the high protein amount and all that stuff but just use vegan foods can look just as good, but again they eat tons of more protein etc.

It could be because vegans are rare and focus on other things, like endurance and agility. These are the things I focus on.

 

[HDD]

Still waiting for the mythological high‐protein liver 'estrogen detox' explanation.

RP: Broda Barnes was one of the first people to notice the importance of the liver in thyroid function. The Biskins, in 1942 to 1945, were showing how the liver regulates hormones, but they were concentrating on estrogen. If the liver was lacking thyroid or protein or some vitamins, the Biskins showed that your estrogen would skyrocket in proportion to the reduced function of the liver. And there's this antagonism focused on the liver between estrogen and thyroid. And the thyroid works partly by increasing protein synthesis, but partly by simply energizing the liver so that it is able to detoxify everything that shouldn't be in the body. The liver should remove 100% of the estrogen that reaches it in circulation. So, the body should be able to produce estrogen in the ovary for example, send it to do its work in the uterus and breast and so on, but then it should immediately be destroyed by the liver. And if your thyroid is low the liver loses the ability to detoxify estrogen and practically everything else harmful. And the liver happens to also be the source, as Broda Barnes discovered, of the most active thyroid. He said it's about two thirds of the thyroid used by the body is produced in the liver. And if your liver isn't getting enough sugar, enough glucose, or if it doesn't have enough selenium, it is unable to convert thyroxin into T3. If you can completely knockout the liver, and your thyroid will excrete about this ratio of 3 parts of thyroxin to 1 part of T3, and so as long as your thyroid is working, your liver will be getting a little bit of T3 and will be able to keep functioning, other things being equal. But if you are under stress for example, don't have anything to eat for about 24 hours, or are exerting too much energy in proportion to what you are eating, your liver isn't getting enough glucose to convert the 3 parts of thyroxin produced in your gland into the active T3, and so you will have this drastic decrease in production of the active triiodothyronine (T3), most of which comes from the liver when it's well fed with sugar. If the doctor prescribes only T4, it will work fine in anyone who doesn't need it (such as 25 year old healthy men). But women, because of their higher estrogen level, have many times the incidence of thyroid problems and liver problems than men do. And it's because of the centrality of the liver to the activation of thyroid hormone, and the liver's essentiality for eliminating estrogen, that a little problem with either thyroid or estrogen means that your liver will allow estrogen to increase in the body as it decreases its production of active thyroid hormone. And that in turn slows the liver even more so it has a vicious circle.


The Thyroid (East West Healing Blog Talk Radio, 2011)

 

[Koveras]

Just to make clear (taking just one amino acid for example): There is no difference between the tryptophan molecules found in milk and those found in leaves. Some of the largest animals—gorillas, bulls, and elks—are vegan.

THE GREAT PROTEIN DEBATE (PART 1)

"You don’t digest 100% of any food you eat, and cellulose (abundant in ‘high protein’ greens) causes a notable amount of protein to pass through your system undigested. For instance, even though spinach is 30% protein by calorie (about 1 gram per cup), you’ll only be absorbing and utilizing a fraction of this—unless you’ve juiced the spinach or chewed each bite for ten minutes."

What about the chimps (and other apes) that get all their protein from fruits and leaves?

There aren’t any. No primate is vegan, and all of them consume at least a modest amount of overt protein. Chimpanzees, for instance, ‘fish’ for termites (which they seem to find pretty tasty) and also hunt small mammals, both of which provide considerable protein.

In addition, many of the higher primates—such as leaf-chompin’ gorillas—are known as hindgut fermenters, which means they use special microbes in their colon to break down cellulose for energy. Due to their specialized digestive systems, which are not identical to humans’ (although I’ve heard this claim before), they’re able to extract nutrition from matter we can’t digest.

Thirdly: wild fruit is up to twice as high in protein as the cultivated fruit we find in stores. Check back for a future post on this subject. Whereas a raw diet (without the addition of raw protein powders or other supplements) will average 5 – 10% protein by calorie, wild primate diets are double, even triple this amount.

What about cows, who get huge eating nothing but grass?

Cows have a four-compartment stomach and “cud” chewing abilities (where they repeatedly eat and regurgitate food to be re-chewed) that allows them to extract nutrition—including protein—from otherwise indigestible sources. In one compartment of the stomach called the rumen, cows have microbes that help them to synthesize amino acids from non-protein sources such as ammonia. Alas, humans have a digestive system so vastly different than cows’ that a comparison between the two is pretty pointless."

 

[Amazoniac]

the effect of liver damage produced by low casein diets has been studied by a number of workers. Originally one group reported that in the presence of a deficiency of thiamine or riboflavin liver slices failed to inactivate estradiol (Singher, Kensler, Taylor, Rhoads and Unna, 1944). No inanition controls were studied. Later, using a low casein diet the liver slices still failed to inactivate estradiol even though thiamine and riboflavin were being administered (Unna, Singher, Kensler, Taylor and Rhoads, 1944). Other studies have involved the implantation of pellets into the spleen. When such animals were fed a low casein-high fat diet 56 of 91 rats failed to inactivate estrone (Gyorgy, 1945). Treatment of 8 such animals with 25% yeast in the diet produced a disappearance of the estrus (Shipley and Gyorgy, 1944). However, this is the equivalent of adding about 12.5% protein to the diet. In the second study supplements of 50 mgm. of methionine, or casein or lactalbumin digest produced a return of the estrus to the previous anestrous condition whereas a mixture of synthetic B vitamins was without effect (Gyorgy 1945). It should be remembered that a deficiency of the vitamin B complex and the ensuing inanition is an acute process and does not produce histological changes in the liver, whereas a low casein-high fat diet produces definite changes.

 

[Kartoffel]

There are studies that show .5‧g/kg is enough.

Could you show me one or two?

 

[Travis]

Well, probably the longest‐living population eats only 39 grams of protein per day:

Cancer prevalence is high in the United States, and much higher than Japan for most cancers. Cancer rates in Okinawa prefecture is lower than the mainland.

'The lifetime probability of being diagnosed with an invasive cancer is higher for men (45%) than women (38%) [United States]. However, because of the relatively early age of breast cancer onset, women have a slightly higher probability of developing cancer before age 60 years.' ―Jemal​

So what happened to their cancer rates as they started consuming more methionine and tryptophan? I think you could expect an increase.. .

'The traditional Japanese diet changed dramatically between 1950 and 1975: the intake of milk (15 fold), meat, poultry and eggs (7.5 fold) and fat (6 fold) has increased, while that of barley (1140). potatoes (112) and rice (0.7) has decreased. This westernization is more pronounced in the younger generation, rich people, non-farmers and city dwellers. However, the quantities of western foods consumed in Japan are still much less than those in the U.S. or Europe. The quality of the nutrients is also very different: amylopectin. long chain polyunsaturated fatty acids and indigestible polysaccharides are abundant in the Japanese diet. During this period, Japanese became taller and heavier. Breast, colon and lung cancers increased 2-3 fold.' ―Kagawa​

Of course; people have been saying this for over 100 years. Polyamines are so central to cancer that you see strong correlations with ornithine decarboxylase:

'We demonstrate here that ODC-overproducing NIH3T3 cells are tumorigenic in nude mice, giving rise to rapidly growing, large fibrosarcomas at the site of inoculation. The tumors are capable of invading host fat and muscle tissues and are vascularized abundantly.' ―Auvinen​

Polyamines are central to cancer that you could almost say that they are cancer; they interact with DNA directly and catalyze replication. Besides plant foods having a lower methionine ratio in general, more of the methionine they do have exists as selenomethionine: this can be incorporated into proteins yet cannot form polyamines. Selenomethionine actually inhibits polyamine formation.

The Okinawans would eat 39‧grams of protein per day in 1950, adding support the nitrogen balance studies showing similar amounts sufficient. If anyone wants to see some epidemiology on colon cancer, eggs, and meat consumption I can post those too.

Willcox, B. "Caloric restriction, the traditional Okinawan diet, and healthy aging." Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences (2007)
Jemal, A. "Cancer statistics, 2008." CA: a cancer journal for clinicians (2008)
Kagawa, Y. "Impact of Westernization on the nutrition of Japanese: changes in physique, cancer, longevity and centenarians." Preventive medicine (1978)
Auvinen, M. "Ornithine decarboxylase activity is critical for cell transformation." Nature (1992)
Auvinen, M. "Human ornithine decarboxylase-overproducing NIH3T3 cells induce rapidly growing, highly vascularized tumors in nude mice." Cancer research (1997)​

 

[Travis]

Could you show me one or two?

Clark H. Nitrogen balances of adult human subjects who consumed 4 levels of nitrogen from a combination of rice, milk and wheat. J Nutr (1972)
Egana J. Sweet lupin protein quality in young men. J Nutr (1992)
Young V. Evaluation of the protein quality of an isolated soy protein in young men: relative nitrogen requirements and effect of methionine supplementation. Am J Clin Nutr (1984)
Young V. Protein requirements of man: efficiency of egg protein utilization at maintenance and submaintenance levels in young men. J Nutr (1973)

 

[Travis]

THE GREAT PROTEIN DEBATE (PART 1)

"You don’t digest 100% of any food you eat, and cellulose (abundant in ‘high protein’ greens) causes a notable amount of protein to pass through your system undigested. For instance, even though spinach is 30% protein by calorie (about 1 gram per cup), you’ll only be absorbing and utilizing a fraction of this—unless you’ve juiced the spinach or chewed each bite for ten minutes."

I posted an actual chemical determination on the other page showing leaf protein to have a net protein utilization of between 79–86, very similar to milk and higher than practically anything besides cooked egg (raw egg has a trypsin inhibitor, which would be expected to lower the net protein utilization of egg).

Denise Minger seems to be just using her imagination.

There aren’t any. No primate is vegan, and all of them consume at least a modest amount of overt protein. Chimpanzees, for instance, ‘fish’ for termites (which they seem to find pretty tasty) and also hunt small mammals, both of which provide considerable protein.

I had posted on the previous page a graph showing that Western Lowland Gorillas consumed less that one percent insects, an amount which sounds almost incidental. These gorillas are classified as frugivores/folivores, and Carl Linnaeus himself had classified humans as frugivore. I am sure that you can find certain species of smaller primates eating exactly 0% insects.

In addition, many of the higher primates—such as leaf-chompin’ gorillas—are known as hindgut fermenters, which means they use special microbes in their colon to break down cellulose for energy. Due to their specialized digestive systems, which are not identical to humans’ (although I’ve heard this claim before), they’re able to extract nutrition from matter we can’t digest.

Cellulose is a carbohydrate, not a protein; this matters little to this topic for that reason.

Thirdly: wild fruit is up to twice as high in protein as the cultivated fruit we find in stores.

Did Denise actually have a citation for this? (This sounds like her imagination again.)

 

[Kartoffel]

I don't doubt the realtionship between polyamines and cancer, and realize that restricting methionine, cysteine, and tryptophan via total protein restriction has a beneficial role, and will lower the formation of polyamines. Still, I don't think that the correlation between low protein intake and low cancer incidence among the Okinawans is solid evidence supporting the claim of such a low protein requirement. Okinawans have lived with calorie and protein restriction for generations and their phenotype has adapted accordingly. I don't think that the Okinawans and their diet represent optimal human physiology or our optimal food environment. For example, Okinawans are tiny people and I remember reading a study that showed that their metabolism was on average hypothyroid according to standard definitions. Ray mentioned that people with a really low metabolism can maintain their weight on as little as 700 kcal a day and achieve positive nitrogen balance with protein intakes in the range of the Okinawans. I don't think that this is good evidence for optimal protein intakes for euthyroid people. Of course, Ray has talked many times about the beneficial effects of methionine restriction, and yet he recommends a quite high protein intake.
I think his main argument is that the role of methionine and cysteine is to a large extent controlled by metabolic efficiency, and that an intense metabolism will inhibit the formation of polyamines. To be honest, I haven't really thought about his argument in detail and couldn't tell you how it's supposed to work, but I think he's on the right track.

 

[Koveras]

I posted an actual chemical determination on the other page showing leaf protein to have a net protein utilization of between 79–86, very similar to milk and higher than practically anything besides cooked egg (raw egg has a trypsin inhibitor, which would be expected to lower the net protein utilization of egg).

An in-vitro study where "Leaf protein concentrates, extracted from green leaves by mechanical methods, were analyzed for their amino acid composition" - not exactly a naturalistic study of human whole leaf consumption

Cellulose is a carbohydrate, not a protein; this matters little to this topic for that reason.

I think Denise's point is that undigested cellulose fibers reduce the ability of your enzymes to access the protein, and your ability to absorb them, carrying them through the digestive tract undigested - like many other fibers are capable of doing.

Denise Minger seems to be just using her imagination.

She's not someone I would typically ascribe to a flight of fancy in her writing

Did Denise actually have a citation for this? (This sounds like her imagination again.)

Here references related to fruit composition are viewable here

WILD AND ANCIENT FRUIT: IS IT REALLY SMALL, BITTER, AND LOW IN SUGAR?

 

[Koveras]

Arch Tierernahr. 1995;48(1-2):89-95.
The influence of dietary fibre on protein digestion and utilization in monogastrics.
Eggum BO1.

Current knowledge of the effects of dietary fibre and associated components on protein digestibility and utilization are discussed. Based on the literature it could be shown that the implications and mechanisms behind the effect of soluble and insoluble dietary fibre on protein digestibility and utilization are quite different. Insoluble dietary fibre will increase faecal bulk and faecal nitrogen excretion is primarily due to and increased excretion of cell wall bound protein. Contrary to this, soluble dietary fibre increase faecal bulk and faecal nitrogen due to an increased excretion of microbial nitrogen. A matter of controversy is the influence of dietary fibre on endogenous nitrogen excretion and factors affecting the losses of nitrogen in this way. It is not known if fibre acts as a secretogogue.

 

[Travis]

Here references related to fruit composition are viewable here

WILD AND ANCIENT FRUIT: IS IT REALLY SMALL, BITTER, AND LOW IN SUGAR?

Is this a joke? She has pie charts of some wild fruits and domestic fruits of different species. The only two that appear to be in the same genus are the wild 'monkey orange' and the domestic 'valencia'—and they both have the same amount of protein:

Oh wait, I just found two more that can be more‐or‐less compared directly: the 'wild apricot' and the 'apricot:'

The domestic apricot has 5× the protein, yet she says:

'Pretty consistent, right? The biggest difference is that some wild fruits are a bit higher in protein than cultivated varieties, but in general, the macronutrient breakdowns are pretty similar.' ―Minger​

No. You could only think that if you compare domestic grapes the 'wild gherkin.' Denise Minger is comparing apples to oranges, literally, and in the two instances where a direct 1∶1 comparison is possible her imagination breaks down.

 

[Travis]

I don't think that the Okinawans and their diet represent optimal human physiology or our optimal food environment.

I don't see how the ratios found in the food we'd evolved eating would be anything less than optimal.