"Some Fruits, Including Bananas, Pineapples, And Tomatoes. "

Travis

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Can you show me evidence of any low protein eater without excess fat that has successfully built even moderate amounts of muscle? All skinny people who keep their protein low have very little muscle mass, which makes sense for a sedentary person or an endurance athelete, but I have never seen any proof whatsoever that anyone can build hardly any muscle while eating such low amounts of protein. I have personally experienced this during my vegan days, and have seen well over 50 of past clients who are trying to build muscle but fail to do so until more protein is consumed. The size of the house you can build is dependent on the amount of materials available, and since carbohydrates and fats cannot be converted into amino acids/protein by any human capable process, its quite obvious that a certain EXTRA amount is needed. The amount can very somewhat from person to person, but 35 grams isn't enough for any full grown human to build muscle on, unless they were eating even less than that for a time period beforehand. Low protein ( as well as very high ) diets also result in continuously elevated cortisol.. no thanks.

P.s As he is not a professional athelete, its not at all a liability. Also, he used steriods for a period and still gained zero muscle tissue. Thats quite remarkable but expected when protein consumption is that low.

And just a few snippets from the lord and savior himself

" Vegetarians often notice temporary exhilaration when they stop eating meat, probably because their thyroid has been suppressed. But a more serious hypothyroid state often follows, from a low protein inadequate vegetarian diet. Low protein diets definitely interfere with the liver’s ability to detoxify estrogen and other stressors.” - Ray Peat

“A few years ago, most of the nutritional problems that I saw were caused by physicians, by refined convenience foods, and by poverty. Recently, most of the problems seem to be caused by badly designed vegetarian diets, or by acceptance of the idea that 40 grams of protein per day is sufficient. The liver and other organs deteriorate rapidly on low-protein diets. Observe the faces of the wheat-grass promoters, the millet-eaters, and the ‘anti-mucus’ dieters, and other low-protein people. Do they look old for their age?” - Ray Peat

" A simple protein deficiency has many surprising effects. It lowers body temperature, and suppresses the thyroid, but it increases inflammation and the tendency of blood to clot. Since the brain and heart and lungs require a continuous supply of essential amino acids if they are to continue functioning, in the absence of dietary protein, cortisol must be produced continuously to mobilize amino acids from the expendable tissues, which are mainly the skeletal muscles." - Ray Peat
Yeah, haven't you ever heard of George Hackenschmidt? and do you know what he ate? It's in his book if you'd like to know. If I wanted to be bigger then I'd eat more coconut and weight train, but I'm not at all concerned about it; and that doesn't invalidate my original post.

Could you explain this quote you'd posted?

'Low protein diets definitely interfere with the liver’s ability to detoxify estrogen and other stressors.” - Ray Peat
How exactly would an amount of protein shown repeatedly to maintain nitrogen balance interfere with detoxification of estrogen? And did you know that meat and dairy actually contain estrogen? perhaps countering the effects of increased detoxification of that hormone even if it could.. .
 
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Tenacity

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Yeah, haven't you ever heard of George Hackenschmidt? and do you know what he ate? It's in his book if you'd like to know. If I wanted to be bigger then I'd weight train, but I'm not at all concerned about it.

Could you explain this quote you'd posted?

'Low protein diets definitely interfere with the liver’s ability to detoxify estrogen and other stressors.” - Ray Peat
How exactly would an amount of protein shown repeatedly to maintain nitrogen balance interfere with detoxification of estrogen? And did you know that meat and dairy actually contain estrogen? perhaps countering the effects of increased detoxification of that hormone even if it could.. .

George Hackenschmidt - Wikipedia

"He also drank 11 pints of milk a day, and avoided alcohol, tobacco and coffee."

???
 

Travis

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George Hackenschmidt - Wikipedia

"He also drank 11 pints of milk a day, and avoided alcohol, tobacco and coffee."

???
You know, not everyone is raised vegan. I was obviously referring to what he'd ate during that phase of his life, information which is contained in his book. I used to half a pound of cheese per day, but if someone were to say after I'd died that 'Travis ate half a pound of cheese per day' I would consider that a bit disingenuous—though not entirely incorrect.
 

Tenacity

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You know, not everyone is raised vegan. I was obviously referring to what he'd ate during that phase of his life, information which is contained in his book. I used to half a pound of cheese per day, but if someone were to say after I'd died that 'Travis ate half a pound of cheese per day' I would consider that a bit disingenuous—though not entirely incorrect.

Which book? Which phase of his life? When did he stop (or start?) drinking milk?
 
T

tca300

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Yeah, haven't you ever heard of George Hackenschmidt? and do you know what he ate? It's in his book if you'd like to know. If I wanted to be bigger then I'd eat more coconut and weight train, but I'm not at all concerned about it; and that doesn't invalidate my original post.

Could you explain this quote you'd posted?

'Low protein diets definitely interfere with the liver’s ability to detoxify estrogen and other stressors.” - Ray Peat
How exactly would an amount of protein shown repeatedly to maintain nitrogen balance interfere with detoxification of estrogen? And did you know that meat and dairy actually contain estrogen? perhaps countering the effects of increased detoxification of that hormone even if it could.. .
A low protein diet interferes by not giving the liver enough fuel to detoxify said estrogen, as I mentioned above, the liver uses protein derivatives for energy purposes. Animal products do contain estrogen, and many plants contain very estrogenic compounds as well as defensive substances ( which animal products contain none of ) that damage the consumer in some way, further burdening the liver and entire organism, . Protein bioavailability is extremely variable with plants, mostly leaning towards the poor end. If you do decide to bulk up, I wouldn't recommend using coconut, you will get extremely fat trying to get the needed protein from such a calorie dense food. Most vegan bodybuilders use vegan protein powders, because its nearly impossible to stay lean, and build muscle mass with plant foods because of the amount of calories that are consumed in order to get the needed protein.
 

Koveras

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The amount of protein needed for nitrogen balance is only 35‧g.

You can live off of ~35 grams of protein. But your muscle mass will top out at durian rider levels lol.

What do you base your incredulity on?

Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Oct;86(4):995-1002.
Reevaluation of the protein requirement in young men with the indicator amino acid oxidation technique.
Humayun MA1, Elango R, Ball RO, Pencharz PB.
BACKGROUND:
The current estimated protein requirements are based on the nitrogen balance method, which has many limitations. An alternate approach is needed to permit a reevaluation of protein requirements.​
OBJECTIVE:
The objective was to determine protein requirements in men by using the indicator amino acid oxidation technique.​
DESIGN:
Eight healthy men randomly received graded protein intakes (0.10, 0.30, 0.60, 0.90, 1.2, 1.5 and 1.8 g kg(-1) d(-1)) as a crystalline amino acid mixture along with L-[1-(13)C]phenylalanine. The mean protein requirement was determined by applying a biphase linear regression crossover analysis on F(13)CO(2) data, which identified a breakpoint at the minimal rate of appearance of (13)CO(2) to graded protein intakes.​
RESULTS:
The mean and population-safe (recommended dietary allowance; RDA) protein requirements were found to be 0.93 and 1.2 g kg(-1) d(-1), respectively. These requirements are comparable with those estimated by the application of a biphase linear regression model to the data from nitrogen balance studies (0.91 and 1.0 g kg(-1) d(-1), respectively). These requirements are 41% and 50% higher than the current recommendations for the estimated average requirement (EAR) of 0.66 g kg(-1) d(-1) and the RDA of 0.80 g kg(-1) d(-1), as determined by applying a linear regression model where it intersects the zero balance line.​
CONCLUSION:
The indicator amino acid oxidation technique defined a protein requirement that is comparable with that estimated by the application of a biphase linear regression model to nitrogen balance data in the literature. Our data and the reanalysis of the preexisting nitrogen balance data suggest that the current recommended protein requirements are too low and require reassessment.​

J Nutr. 2017 May;147(5):850-857. doi: 10.3945/jn.116.236331. Epub 2017 Feb 8.
Indicator Amino Acid-Derived Estimate of Dietary Protein Requirement for Male Bodybuilders on a Nontraining Day Is Several-Fold Greater than the Current Recommended Dietary Allowance.
Bandegan A1, Courtney-Martin G2,3, Rafii M2, Pencharz PB2,4,5, Lemon PW6.
Background:
Despite a number of studies indicating increased dietary protein needs in bodybuilders with the use of the nitrogen balance technique, the Institute of Medicine (2005) has concluded, based in part on methodologic concerns, that "no additional dietary protein is suggested for healthy adults undertaking resistance or endurance exercise."Objective: The aim of the study was to assess the dietary protein requirement of healthy young male bodybuilders ( with ≥3 y training experience) on a nontraining day by measuring the oxidation of ingested l-[1-13C]phenylalanine to 13CO2 in response to graded intakes of protein [indicator amino acid oxidation (IAAO) technique].​
Methods:
Eight men (means ± SDs: age, 22.5 ± 1.7 y; weight, 83.9 ± 11.6 kg; 13.0% ± 6.3% body fat) were studied at rest on a nontraining day, on several occasions (4-8 times) each with protein intakes ranging from 0.1 to 3.5 g · kg-1 · d-1, for a total of 42 experiments. The diets provided energy at 1.5 times each individual's measured resting energy expenditure and were isoenergetic across all treatments. Protein was fed as an amino acid mixture based on the protein pattern in egg, except for phenylalanine and tyrosine, which were maintained at constant amounts across all protein intakes. For 2 d before the study, all participants consumed 1.5 g protein · kg-1 · d-1 On the study day, the protein requirement was determined by identifying the breakpoint in the F13CO2 with graded amounts of dietary protein [mixed-effects change-point regression analysis of F13CO2 (labeled tracer oxidation in breath)].Results: The Estimated Average Requirement (EAR) of protein and the upper 95% CI RDA for these young male bodybuilders were 1.7 and 2.2 g · kg-1 · d-1, respectively.​
Conclusion:
These IAAO data suggest that the protein EAR and recommended intake for male bodybuilders at rest on a nontraining day exceed the current recommendations of the Institute of Medicine by ∼2.6-fold. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT02621294.​
 

Travis

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A low protein diet interferes by not giving the liver enough fuel to detoxify said estrogen,
I thought protein was used for muscle . . . and glucose, fructose, and fatty acids were used for 'fuel.' Could you be more specific about your purported 'estrogen detox' mechanism?
Animal products do contain estrogen, and many plants contain very estrogenic compounds as well as defensive substances
Wrong. Only one plant contains a mildly estrogenic compound, soy, and it only really binds to the estrogen β receptor. (Estrogen itself binds to both the α and β receptors at 100% affinity.)

estrogen.png


Protein bioavailability is extremely variable with plants, mostly leaning towards the poor end.
Plants? did you mean to say 'grains' were at the poor end? Leaf protein has a biological value very similar to milk, which is at 83:

leaf.png


If you do decide to bulk up,
I'm a writer, and the heaviest thing I carry are groceries. I'd rather do something more constructive, like read.

I wouldn't recommend using coconut, you will get extremely fat trying to get the needed protein from such a calorie dense food.
I seriously doubt more coconut would make me fat. Have you ever heard of the Tokelau Islanders? About 60% of their calories had come from coconut, and none of them were fat (the rest being mostly tubers and breadfruit). Does this guy look fat to you?

Chagos_Islander_1050x700.jpg


Most vegan bodybuilders use vegan protein powders, because its nearly impossible to stay lean, and build muscle mass with plant foods because of the amount of calories that are consumed in order to get the needed protein.
Leaves have a fairly high protein to calorie ratio.

If you ever decide to stop eating estrogen you should let us know. And one thing about milk: Bovine β‐casomorphin, and all other opiates for that matter, will cause a prolactin spike. This means that soy, wheat, and milk can potentially contribute to a more 'female' fat deposition pattern.

Kuiper, G. "Interaction of estrogenic chemicals and phytoestrogens with estrogen receptor β." Endocrinology (1998)
Akeson, W. "Leaf Proteins as Foodstuffs, Nutritive Value of Leaf Protein Concentrate, an In Vitro Degestion Study." Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (1965)
 
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Travis

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3,189
Am J Clin Nutr. 2007 Oct;86(4):995-1002.
Reevaluation of the protein requirement in young men with the indicator amino acid oxidation technique.
Humayun MA1, Elango R, Ball RO, Pencharz PB.
BACKGROUND:
The current estimated protein requirements are based on the nitrogen balance method, which has many limitations. An alternate approach is needed to permit a reevaluation of protein requirements.​
OBJECTIVE:
The objective was to determine protein requirements in men by using the indicator amino acid oxidation technique.​
DESIGN:
Eight healthy men randomly received graded protein intakes (0.10, 0.30, 0.60, 0.90, 1.2, 1.5 and 1.8 g kg(-1) d(-1)) as a crystalline amino acid mixture along with L-[1-(13)C]phenylalanine. The mean protein requirement was determined by applying a biphase linear regression crossover analysis on F(13)CO(2) data, which identified a breakpoint at the minimal rate of appearance of (13)CO(2) to graded protein intakes.​
RESULTS:
The mean and population-safe (recommended dietary allowance; RDA) protein requirements were found to be 0.93 and 1.2 g kg(-1) d(-1), respectively. These requirements are comparable with those estimated by the application of a biphase linear regression model to the data from nitrogen balance studies (0.91 and 1.0 g kg(-1) d(-1), respectively). These requirements are 41% and 50% higher than the current recommendations for the estimated average requirement (EAR) of 0.66 g kg(-1) d(-1) and the RDA of 0.80 g kg(-1) d(-1), as determined by applying a linear regression model where it intersects the zero balance line.​
CONCLUSION:
The indicator amino acid oxidation technique defined a protein requirement that is comparable with that estimated by the application of a biphase linear regression model to nitrogen balance data in the literature. Our data and the reanalysis of the preexisting nitrogen balance data suggest that the current recommended protein requirements are too low and require reassessment.​

J Nutr. 2017 May;147(5):850-857. doi: 10.3945/jn.116.236331. Epub 2017 Feb 8.
Indicator Amino Acid-Derived Estimate of Dietary Protein Requirement for Male Bodybuilders on a Nontraining Day Is Several-Fold Greater than the Current Recommended Dietary Allowance.
Bandegan A1, Courtney-Martin G2,3, Rafii M2, Pencharz PB2,4,5, Lemon PW6.
Background:
Despite a number of studies indicating increased dietary protein needs in bodybuilders with the use of the nitrogen balance technique, the Institute of Medicine (2005) has concluded, based in part on methodologic concerns, that "no additional dietary protein is suggested for healthy adults undertaking resistance or endurance exercise."Objective: The aim of the study was to assess the dietary protein requirement of healthy young male bodybuilders ( with ≥3 y training experience) on a nontraining day by measuring the oxidation of ingested l-[1-13C]phenylalanine to 13CO2 in response to graded intakes of protein [indicator amino acid oxidation (IAAO) technique].​
Methods:
Eight men (means ± SDs: age, 22.5 ± 1.7 y; weight, 83.9 ± 11.6 kg; 13.0% ± 6.3% body fat) were studied at rest on a nontraining day, on several occasions (4-8 times) each with protein intakes ranging from 0.1 to 3.5 g · kg-1 · d-1, for a total of 42 experiments. The diets provided energy at 1.5 times each individual's measured resting energy expenditure and were isoenergetic across all treatments. Protein was fed as an amino acid mixture based on the protein pattern in egg, except for phenylalanine and tyrosine, which were maintained at constant amounts across all protein intakes. For 2 d before the study, all participants consumed 1.5 g protein · kg-1 · d-1 On the study day, the protein requirement was determined by identifying the breakpoint in the F13CO2 with graded amounts of dietary protein [mixed-effects change-point regression analysis of F13CO2 (labeled tracer oxidation in breath)].Results: The Estimated Average Requirement (EAR) of protein and the upper 95% CI RDA for these young male bodybuilders were 1.7 and 2.2 g · kg-1 · d-1, respectively.​
Conclusion:
These IAAO data suggest that the protein EAR and recommended intake for male bodybuilders at rest on a nontraining day exceed the current recommendations of the Institute of Medicine by ∼2.6-fold. This trial was registered at clinicaltrials.gov as NCT02621294.​
I could list ten studies showing nitrogen balance at under .5‧g/kg‧d if you'd like. Check out that review study I had posted; there have been hundreds of such studies done in the past with a very wide range of results. Not only does it matter which food is chosen, but cooking can also either increase of decrease the protein utilization of a food. (And I'd be dead of 35‧g/d wasn't enough to maintain nitrogen balance.)
 
T

tca300

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I thought protein was used for muscle . . . and glucose, fructose, and fatty acids were used for 'fuel.' Could you be more specific about your purported 'estrogen detox' mechanism?

Wrong. Only one plant contains a mildly estrogenic compound, soy, and it only really binds to the estrogen β receptor. (Estrogen itself binds to both the α and β receptors at 100% affinity.)

View attachment 8392

Plants? did you mean to say 'grains' were at the poor end? Leaf protein has a biological value very similar to milk, which is at 83:

View attachment 8393

I'm a writer, and the heaviest thing I carry are groceries. I'd rather do something more constructive, like read.

I seriously doubt more coconut would make me fat. Have you ever heard of the Tokelau Islanders? About 60% of their calories had come from coconut, and none of them were fat (the rest being mostly tubers and breadfruit). Does this guy look fat to you?

Chagos_Islander_1050x700.jpg


Can you name just one other food with a higher protein to calorie ratio than leaves?

If you ever decide to stop eating estrogen you should let us know. And one thing about milk: Bovine β‐casomorphin, and all other opiates for that matter, will cause a prolactin spike. This means that soy, wheat, and milk can potentially contribute to a more 'female' fat deposition pattern.

Kuiper, G. "Interaction of estrogenic chemicals and phytoestrogens with estrogen receptor β." Endocrinology (1998)
Akeson, W. "Leaf Proteins as Foodstuffs, Nutritive Value of Leaf Protein Concentrate, an In Vitro Degestion Study." Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (1965)
Ok you win. :D
I wish you the best!
 

Wagner83

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If you ever decide to stop eating estrogen you should let us know. And one thing about milk: Bovine β‐casomorphin, and all other opiates for that matter, will cause a prolactin spike. This means that soy, wheat, and milk can potentially contribute to a more 'female' fat deposition pattern.

Kuiper, G. "Interaction of estrogenic chemicals and phytoestrogens with estrogen receptor β." Endocrinology (1998)
Akeson, W. "Leaf Proteins as Foodstuffs, Nutritive Value of Leaf Protein Concentrate, an In Vitro Degestion Study." Journal of Agricultural and Food Chemistry (1965)
I've stopped both for weeks now and while my health has improved my waistline still suffers. Haidut mentioned a connection between cortisol and larger waistline. I have been trying to control the insulin response to potatoes with a bit of fat, whole fruits and proteins.
Does a low-fat diet (in the context of starch eating) makes any sense to you? I think the oxidation of coconut fat is pretty unique in the realm of fatty foods as, unlike the others, it doesn't interfere with glucose oxidation (afaik), so perhaps increasing coconut milk would actually be safe (recommended) but butter, cocoa and beef fat would be dangerous (insulin resistance, endotoxin galore.. ).
 

Amazoniac

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I could list ten studies showing nitrogen balance at under .5‧g/kg‧d if you'd like. Check out that review study I had posted; there have been hundreds of such studies done in the past with a very wide range of results. Not only does it matter which food is chosen, but cooking can also either increase of decrease the protein utilization of a food. (And I'd be dead of 35‧g/d wasn't enough to maintain nitrogen balance.)
Travis, why are you using calorie as reference? It has to be per serving, and animals foods are better in this regard. Even if they had the same protein values and were just as available to the body (like you mentioned by processing), you would still have to deal with the plant toxins.

Our life model:

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?
Poor people, especially in the spring when other foods were scarce, have sometimes subsisted on foliage such as collard and poke greens, usually made more palatable by cooking them with flavorings, such as a little bacon grease and lots of salt. Eventually, "famine foods" can be accepted as dietary staples. The fact that cows, sheep, goats and deer can thrive on a diet of foliage shows that leaves contain essential nutrients. Their minerals, vitamins, and amino acids are suitable for sustaining most animal life, if a sufficient quantity is eaten. But when people try to live primarily on foliage, as in famines, they soon suffer from a great variety of diseases. Various leaves contain antimetabolic substances that prevent the assimilation of the nutrients, and only very specifically adapted digestive systems (or technologies) can overcome those toxic effects.

Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths
The chemist Norman Pirie argued convincingly that leaf protein had much higher nutritional value than grain and bean proteins, and that it had the potential to be much more efficient economically, if it could be separated from the less desirable components of leaves.


The amino acid composition and nutritional value of leaf protein is similar to milk protein, which is understandable since cows produce milk from the amino acids produced in their rumens by bacteria digesting the leaves the cows have eaten. The bacteria perform the refining processes that Pirie believed could be done technologically, and they also degrade or detoxify the major toxins and allergens.

Just because @Fisherman94 can pull it off, doesn't mean we should as well.

Regarding adequate protein intake, even within the review you posted you can find a lot of diversity. Just because it concentrates around 0.65g of proteid/kg, doesn't mean that everyone achieves balance on that. There are people achieving on less and others more. If most people are dealing with stress on a daily basis, you have to use these slightly higher references out of safety to encompass the majority of angelords, which according to him is an intake of about 0.83g/kg. But these are just references, they don't say much about individual needs. Also we can't ignore the exceptions. I don't know why you use the specific value of 35g a day if weight is one of the influences. burtlan's biceps weights your total weight.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...mmendations_A_Simple_But_Often_Confused_Topic
Supporting a reasonable increased need but not excessive.
 
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superhuman

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I did 5-23 grams of fat for over a year, felt pretty good, then terrible things started happening, I became very allergic to salicylates and related substances, and my body stopped processing fructose.. so in order to keep my cholesterol from crashing I drink a 50/50 mix of 1% and 2% milk, since I dont have fructose to keep my cholesterol up anymore. I also feel stronger and sleep better with more fat. If coconut oil wasnt high in salicylates I would be using hydrogenated coconut oil enstead of dairy fat.

Interesting. Have you noticed anything in terms of metabolic rate decreasing since increasing fat intake? in terms of calories you could eat a day on no/low fat?
 

superhuman

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I could list ten studies showing nitrogen balance at under .5‧g/kg‧d if you'd like. Check out that review study I had posted; there have been hundreds of such studies done in the past with a very wide range of results. Not only does it matter which food is chosen, but cooking can also either increase of decrease the protein utilization of a food. (And I'd be dead of 35‧g/d wasn't enough to maintain nitrogen balance.)

I guess you could, but i could also show tons of studies proving otherwise. I guess it also comes down to evidence in terms of results? do you have any people that are currently eating that low amount of protein while maintaining more then normal muscle and maintains low body fat % ? or even better some one that has build a good amount of muscle with that amount and still stay lean? or any other athlete for that matter?

I think you stand are really interesting and i love you read and listen to it since i love to learn. I have however been a raw vegan for many years and have done what you are currently eating and it did not provide whats promised. I really noticed low protein and low salt lowers metabolism, increase water retention, increase muscle loss, increase estrogen. So yeah thats just my own experience and all the other people i have seen doing that approach. But i would love more of your take on it and why you think "your" approach is able to build muscle and loose fat, maintain high metabolic rate and produce a good or even great testosterone to estrogen ratio etc etc.
 

Travis

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I guess you could, but i could also show tons of studies proving otherwise. I guess it also comes down to evidence in terms of results? do you have any people that are currently eating that low amount of protein while maintaining more then normal muscle and maintains low body fat % ? or even better some one that has build a good amount of muscle with that amount and still stay lean? or any other athlete for that matter?

I think you stand are really interesting and i love you read and listen to it since i love to learn. I have however been a raw vegan for many years and have done what you are currently eating and it did not provide whats promised. I really noticed low protein and low salt lowers metabolism, increase water retention, increase muscle loss, increase estrogen. So yeah thats just my own experience and all the other people i have seen doing that approach. But i would love more of your take on it and why you think "your" approach is able to build muscle and loose fat, maintain high metabolic rate and produce a good or even great testosterone to estrogen ratio etc etc.
Then why didn't you just eat more protein? I don't understand. You don't actually think there's something special about 'beef protein' do you?
But i would love more of your take on it and why you think "your" approach is able to build muscle and loose fat, maintain high metabolic rate and produce a good or even great testosterone to estrogen ratio etc etc.
Like I said before, I'm not a meathead. And if I didn't think I was eating enough protein then I'd simply eat more coconut or kale.
 

superhuman

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Then why didn't you just eat more protein? I don't understand. You don't actually think there's something special about 'beef protein' do you?

Like I said before, I'm not a meathead. And if I didn't think I was eating enough protein, then I'd simply eat more coconut or kale.

Well i was under the vegan spell so like you they said i did not needed more protein. I did increase it to a bit more but did not help. I dont think there is something special about beef protein but now when i have increased my protein intake with milk 3-4 quarts a day. I have seen big changes.
I prefer milk as main protein source and cheese because of amino acid profile and vitamins and minerals
 

Koveras

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I could list ten studies showing nitrogen balance at under .5‧g/kg‧d if you'd like. Check out that review study I had posted; there have been hundreds of such studies done in the past with a very wide range of results. Not only does it matter which food is chosen, but cooking can also either increase of decrease the protein utilization of a food. (And I'd be dead of 35‧g/d wasn't enough to maintain nitrogen balance.)

I think @tca300 's point was that surviving ≠ thriving.

Thriving of course is subjective, so some people will be thriving just fine on lower protein intakes depending on what their goals are.

My point was about the limitation of nitrogen balance studies and I agree that that is a great review of nitrogen balance studies but the limitations remain. I think the indicator amino acid oxidation technique gives some more clues for those who haven't found a lower protein diet to work for their specific goals.

You know, not everyone is raised vegan. I was obviously referring to what he'd ate during that phase of his life, information which is contained in his book. I used to half a pound of cheese per day, but if someone were to say after I'd died that 'Travis ate half a pound of cheese per day' I would consider that a bit disingenuous—though not entirely incorrect.

Regarding Hackenschmidt - Haidut and I have both posted about a few of the mechanisms of "muscle memory" - which happens both through epigenetics and long term maintenance of myonuclei - so someone who has gained a lot muscle in the past will probably have more leeway with their diet when it comes to building and maintaining muscle.
 

Travis

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Travis, why are you using calorie as reference? It has to be per serving, and animals foods are better in this regard. Even if they had the same protein values and were just as available to the body (like you mentioned by processing), you would still have to deal with the plant toxins.

Our life model:

Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?


Milk in context: allergies, ecology, and some myths

Regarding adequate protein intake, even within the review you posted you can find a lot of diversity. Just because it concentrates around 0.65g of proteid/kg, doesn't mean that everyone achieves balance on that. There are people achieving on less and others more. If most people are dealing with stress on a daily basis, you have to use these slightly higher references out of safety to encompass the majority of angelords, which according to him is an intake of about 0.83g/kg. But these are just references, they don't say much about individual needs. Also we can't ignore the exceptions. I don't know why you use the specific value of 35g a day if weight is one of the influences. burtlan's biceps weights your total weight.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...mmendations_A_Simple_But_Often_Confused_Topic
Supporting a reasonable increased need but not excessive.
You are quoting median values, and even in those studies there is a great amount of range. The meta studies present more‐or‐less a mean of medians. You have to read each one to get a good feel for what's going on, because the biological value of food protein nitrogen can range from ~.30 to 1.00. This means a study using wheat would have a relatively high recommendation, an inflated figure when comparing to milk or leaves. This study here shows a net protein utilization of 0.63 for raw peas, and 0.37 for those heated to only 165°F.
Also we can't ignore the exceptions. I don't know why you use the specific value of 35g a day if weight is one of the influences.
Hey, I said this:

'The amount of protein needed for nitrogen balance is only 35‧g.' ―Travis
Thousands of subjects demonstrate this. But for more details, we have to take each study individually. I don't think it would be unreasonable to assume that much variance depends on (1) the food used, the (2) heat treatment, and the (3) methodology.

The reason to avoid excess methionine and tryptophan should be obvious by now.
 

Travis

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But i would love more of your take on it and why you think "your" approach is able to build muscle and loose fat, maintain high metabolic rate and produce a good or even great testosterone to estrogen ratio etc etc.
You're bringing steroids into this? Below are results from the first two studies which had appeared on GoogleScholar, both showing vegans having higher blood testosterone levels:

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Allen, N. E. "Hormones and diet: low insulin-like growth factor-I but normal bioavailable androgens in vegan men." British Journal of Cancer (2000)
Key, T. "Testosterone, sex hormone-binding globulin, calculated free testosterone, and oestradiol in male vegans and omnivores." British Journal of Nutrition (1990)
 

superhuman

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@Travis sure it can all have an impact. But that has not been studied much as far as i know in terms of hypertrophy, muscle retention and all that in regards to protein intake. They have only demonstrated that vegan protein is worse then animal protein so you need more total protein coming from vegan sources to match the same amount of grams from animal protein. This does not take into account what you mentions in regards to heat and other factors.

I mention "steroids" because hormones and steroids are also important in health. So optimizing testosterone to estrogen etc is also important among other things
How long have you been eating this way and what positive and or negative effects have you gotten from it? also why do you smoke as well ? :)
 

Travis

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...i have increased my protein intake with milk 3-4 quarts a day. I have seen big changes.
I prefer milk as main protein source and cheese because of amino acid profile and vitamins and minerals

The biological effects of milk certainly extend beyond the protein intake. It has steroids and IGF‐1, and drinking milk has shown to increase IGF‐1. Dietary androgens and IGF‐1 are also the two consistent etiological factors in acne, explaining why milk is so correlated with acne.

Just to make clear (taking just one amino acid for example): There is no difference between the tryptophan molecules found in milk and those found in leaves. Some of the largest animals—gorillas, bulls, and elks—are vegan. And some bodybuilders are even vegan. The user above tried to make a point by posting an image of a vegan endurance athlete (?)—as if he was trying to be a bodybuilder. The fact remains that Harley Johnston appears no smaller than most other long‐distance runners and bikers (not mentioned). If you would like to make a point about vegan bodybuilders by posting images, they you'd have to post images of vegan bodybuilders (vide infra).


torre4-800x532.jpg
 

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