Soluble Fiber Causes Liver Cancer, Insoluble And Antibiotics Prevent/stop It

[Suikerbuik]

Regarding post 59

I am sure you can also find posts or quotes where Ray advices psyllium fiber to certain people, especially in the context of estrogen removal.

Wondering myself. If psyllium seed husk is almost all soluble fiber, why do so many people (especially older people) have such great luck using it for constipation?

Like you, I also don't feel like starting a fiber debate, hence I started with 'And personal it is'. But I'll give you my experience. When I use it, I don't always use it because some periods I feel like not supplementing things at all, I don't find psyllium stimulating nor constipating nor having a high fermentation potential. If it does something at all besides bulking a bit, its overall effect is drying, something calcium supplements also tend to do. I used psyllium for counteracting estrogen.

 

[haidut]

This sentence is misleading, as it mixes the term soluble/insoluble with fermentable/infermentable, while the two dont imply the same. It also suggests that the above foods only contain insoluble fiber, which is not correct.

In fact, carrot - in wide contrast to wheat bran - is as nearly as fermentable as apples in humans (1). This can be seen in a study in humans in which consumption of raw carrot significantly increases breath hydrogen, showing that carrot consumption - in contrast to peatarian claims - increases numbers of gut bacteria and fermentation (2).

1. Fermentation of dietary fibre in the intestinal tract: comparison between man and rat. - PubMed - NCBI
2. The effect of raw carrot on serum lipids and colon function. - PubMed - NCBI

What's the confusing part? All soluble fibers are fermentable if they reach the colon undigested and there is at least some bacteria there (which is 99.99% of the population). Even the sugar alcohols have the effect of feeding bacteria (except possibly xylitol) if they reach the colon even though they are technically already pre-fermented. On the other hand, insoluble fibers are not typically fermentable, but if you know one please share.

 

[Dave Clark]

What's the confusing part? All soluble fibers are fermentable if they reach the colon undigested and there is at least some bacteria there (which is 99.99% of the population). Even the sugar alcohols have the effect of feeding bacteria (except possibly xylitol) if they reach the colon even though they are technically already pre-fermented. On the other hand, insoluble fibers are not typically fermentable, but if you know one please share.

Haidut, you mentioned xylitol. I am on and off with it because I hear two sides of the story, plus it doesn't make me feel bad, but in the morning it stimulates my bowels, where without using it I don't have that urge. Some say that because it is so good at breaking down biofilm that it has a negative effect on the good bacteria as well as the bad. Should this sugar be avoided taken internally (as opposed to an oral rinse, etc.)? Thanks in advance for your opinion.

 

[Kartoffel]

Fermentation of dietary fibre in the intestinal tract: comparison between man and rat. - PubMed - NCBI:


The effect of raw carrot on serum lipids and colon function. - PubMed - NCBI:

I once asked Ray about that study. Here is his reply:

"They didn’t measure hydrogen in the last part of the study. The antiseptic effect of carrot might have decreased methane forming bacteria, leaving more food for hydrogen formation. Most people say that they can see undigested carrot in their stool; I doubt that the fiber supports fermentation to hydrogen."​

He also attache this study

Gastroenterology. 1984 Sep;87(3):601-5.
Methane production and colon cancer.
Piqué JM, Pallarés M, Cusó E, Vilar-Bonet J, Gassull MA.
The cause of the high incidence of methane producers in patients with colorectal
cancer is not clear. A total of 270 individuals were studied for methane
production, using an end-expiratory breath sampling technique. They were divided
into eight groups: 156 healthy controls (group 1); 47 patients with colorectal
cancer (group 2); 36 patients (34 of them included in the previous group) after
resection of the tumor (group 3); 7 (also included in group 2) with nonresectable
tumor (group 4); 29 with nonmalignant diseases of the colon (group 5); 12 with
extensive ulcerative colitis (group 6); 12 with ulcerative proctosigmoiditis
(group 7); and 12 with colonic polyposis (group 8). Significantly more patients
(91.4%) with colorectal cancer in group 2 produced methane than either healthy
controls (42.9%) (p less than 0.001) or patients with benign diseases of the
colon (41.3%) (p less than 0.001). In 36 patients (group 3) in whom the cancer
was resected, the incidence of methane producers fell to 47.2%, similar to the
control group, but significantly different from group 2 (p less than 0.001). The
percentage of methane producers in patients operated on, but with unresectable
cancer, remained very high (87.7%). A significantly higher proportion of patients
with extensive ulcerative colitis (group 6) and colonic polyposis (group 7)
produced methane than patients with ulcerative proctosigmoiditis (group 7),
benign diseases of the colon (group 5), and healthy controls (p less than 0.05).
The results suggest that the presence of cancer in the large bowel directly
influences methane production. In addition, in the group of diseases with a high
risk of malignancy, the prevalence of methane-producing individuals was
significantly higher than in the healthy population and in patients with benign
diseases of the colon.

 

[Mufasa]

Wondering myself. If psyllium seed husk is almost all soluble fiber, why do so many people (especially older people) have such great luck using it for constipation? Didn't really want to get into this fiber debate, but some here say that eventually the soluble fiber contributes to constipation, yet no one I know that uses soluble fiber products, or eats soluble fiber foods complain about constipation, in fact, they rave that they rely on it to keep them regular. I know some say it keeps you regular because it is a gut irritant, which I suppose is part of the debate. There are some health experts that say psyllium seed helps seal leaky gut. I know for me, I don't use it regularly, but if I get a bout of constipation, I take a tablespoon of psyllium seed husk, and it works like a charm. Carrots do nothing for me in terms of relieving constipation, neither does wheat.

What's the confusing part? All soluble fibers are fermentable if they reach the colon undigested and there is at least some bacteria there (which is 99.99% of the population). Even the sugar alcohols have the effect of feeding bacteria (except possibly xylitol) if they reach the colon even though they are technically already pre-fermented. On the other hand, insoluble fibers are not typically fermentable, but if you know one please share.

What's the confusing part? All soluble fibers are fermentable if they reach the colon undigested and there is at least some bacteria there (which is 99.99% of the population). Even the sugar alcohols have the effect of feeding bacteria (except possibly xylitol) if they reach the colon even though they are technically already pre-fermented. On the other hand, insoluble fibers are not typically fermentable, but if you know one please share.

What confuses me is that bamboo shoots and carrot have a lower ratio of insoluble:soluble than for example an apple.

 

[Kartoffel]

What confuses me is that bamboo shoots and carrot have a lower ratio of insoluble:soluble than for example an apple.

I don't think they do.

 

[Mufasa]

I don't think they do.

My memory failed a little bit. Bamboo shoot is a bit higher than apple.

Bamboo shoots 2.6
Apple 2.4
Carrot, raw 1.1

Anyway the point stays, it is still confusing that carrot is so much lower than apple, and that apple and bamboo shoots are comparable.

 

[haidut]

Haidut, you mentioned xylitol. I am on and off with it because I hear two sides of the story, plus it doesn't make me feel bad, but in the morning it stimulates my bowels, where without using it I don't have that urge. Some say that because it is so good at breaking down biofilm that it has a negative effect on the good bacteria as well as the bad. Should this sugar be avoided taken internally (as opposed to an oral rinse, etc.)? Thanks in advance for your opinion.

I was not recommending it, just saying it is one of the sugar alcohols that instead of feeding bacteria seems to kill it. It is probably good as a mouth wash, especially in combination with MB. As far as internal, I am not sure but there are reports from people saying it fixed their SIBO.

 

[Suikerbuik]

What's the confusing part? All soluble fibers are fermentable if they reach the colon undigested and there is at least some bacteria there (which is 99.99% of the population). Even the sugar alcohols have the effect of feeding bacteria (except possibly xylitol) if they reach the colon even though they are technically already pre-fermented. On the other hand, insoluble fibers are not typically fermentable, but if you know one please share.

Whether digestive resistent structures are fermentable or not really depend on the molecular structure. It is true that solvated polymers are generally more accesible because they're 'in the same phase' and have a larger surface area, but still, if the bonds of the oligomers/ monomers are not recognized, and there are a lot of different types, the polymer remains undigested mainly. On the other hand, insoluble structures such as raw starch - put some in a glass and try to solve it, goodluck - are usually not so easily accesible; however, if there are bonds recognized by enzymes present, and in the case of starch I'm fairly sure that is the case, I bet you experience a lot of discomfort/ gassing and not to mention persorption issues in this example.

 

[Kartoffel]

My memory failed a little bit. Bamboo shoot is a bit higher than apple.

Bamboo shoots 2.6
Apple 2.4
Carrot, raw 1.1

Anyway the point stays, it is still confusing that carrot is so much lower than apple, and that apple and bamboo shoots are comparable.

Where are these numbers from? This paper says that raw carrots contain 2.3g insoluble fiber and 0.2 soluble fiber per 100g, while apples contain 1.8 and 0.2.

Dietary fibre in foods: a review

 

[Mufasa]

Where are these numbers from? This paper says that raw carrots contain 2.3g insoluble fiber and 0.2 soluble fiber per 100g, while apples contain 1.8 and 0.2.

Dietary fibre in foods: a review

They are from here:
Fiber Content Of Foods | Insoluble & Soluble Food Chart

 

[Kartoffel]

They are from here:
Fiber Content Of Foods | Insoluble & Soluble Food Chart

Well, and where do they have their numbers from? They don't provide any source. I think a study from a peer-reviewed journal is a little more trustworthy as a source than a website selling prebiotics.

 

[Mufasa]

Well, and where do they have their numbers from? They don't provide any source. I think a study from a peer-reviewed journal is a little more trustworthy as a source than a website selling prebiotics.

I think so too, thanks!

 

[Kartoffel]

I think so too, thanks!

On the other side, it should be mentioned that papers determining the ratio of soluble to insoluble fibers often yield significantly different results, because of differences in measuring methods. For example, in this paper the ratio for carrots is very different.

Wisker, Elisabeth, Schwezer, Thomas F., Daniel, Martina, and Walter Feldheim (1994): Fibre-mediated physiological effects of raw and processed carrots in humans. British Journal of Nutrition, Issue 72, 579-599.
​

 

[General Orange]

More bad news - the animals with gut dysbiosis housed together with animals without resulted in the animals without dysbiosis also acquiring it, and developing HCC at the same rate if fed soluble fiber. So, this suggests that if we live among people with gut dysbiosis we tend to acquire it as well over time. In other words, the carcinogenicity potential is transmissible.

To investigate the role of gut microbiota in ICD-induced HCC, we co-housed dysbiotic T5KO mice with WT mice, thus allowing the transfer of microbiota via coprophagy. [eating of feces] Co-housing of WT and T5KO mice while maintained on ICD resulted in the development of HCC in both strains by 6 months

You know what this means people?
We must disinfect our hands before using the WC toilet and after, entering and leaving the restrooms without contamination. Toilet paper use is a stupid invention and a fallacy, bacteria get through the thin paper when you wipe. Always use moist toilet-tissue with an disinfectant alcohol or something.

What about after using money? Same.

I can already imaging myself bringing my moist tissues with me in my man-bag every time I go out...

 

[Amazoniac]

You know what this means people?
We must disinfect our hands before using the WC toilet and after, entering and leaving the restrooms without contamination. Toilet paper use is a stupid invention and a fallacy, bacteria get through the thin paper when you wipe. Always use moist toilet-tissue with an disinfectant alcohol or something.

What about after using money? Same.

I can already imaging myself bringing my moist tissues with me in my man-bag every time I go out...

I know this is half a joke but some people have this toilet paranoia and it's silly, especially if you tracked their actions after sterilization. Closing a manual tap, pushing the swinging door (by the way, Suikerbuik only opens these with SWAT kicks), then placing their hands on escalator rails serving as a tractor bucket for collecting germs, then checking the time on their phone and answering a call from their partner that they're about to meet and has just used the subway, later on also checking their parking ticket that happens to be placed in their pockets after using a parking meter, then they'll have to charge their vehicle but thankfully those handles are not contaminated at all, then dropping something on the floor that rolls in slow motion to finally stop on a street drain.

 

[General Orange]

I know this is half a joke but some people have this toilet paranoia and it's silly, especially if you tracked their actions after sterilization. Closing a manual tap, pushing the swinging door (by the way, Suikerbuik only opens these with SWAT kicks), then placing their hands on escalator rails serving as a tractor bucket for collecting germs, then checking the time on their phone and answering a call from their partner that they're about to meet and has just used the subway, later on also checking their parking ticket that happens to be placed in their pockets after using a parking meter, then they'll have to charge their vehicle but thankfully those handles are not contaminated at all, then dropping something on the floor that rolls in slow motion to finally stop on a street drain.

that is going too far!
so basically those OCD people think about sticky shitty things a lot then, filling their mind with crap. All they can think about is crap! I think they might be suffering from a shittytonin syndrome.

BTW I was not joking,
I really use a man bag

 

[General Orange]

Lists of High Fiber Foods, Soluble and Insoluble Fiber Chart
- LINK
edit - LINK 2

I hope someone understands how much effort I go to to find these useful lists for you, and then others come along and post their own My charts are with sources !
Should help making it more easy to discard bad food high in soluble fibers.
and of course the food listed of insoluble fiber should be looked at through Peat's glasses.

Properties of soluble /insoluble fiber: Too be more clear. Here is a comparison:

On the other side, it should be mentioned that papers determining the ratio of soluble to insoluble fibers often yield significantly different results, because of differences in measuring methods. For example, in this paper the ratio for carrots is very different.

Wisker, Elisabeth, Schwezer, Thomas F., Daniel, Martina, and Walter Feldheim (1994): Fibre-mediated physiological effects of raw and processed carrots in humans. British Journal of Nutrition, Issue 72, 579-599.
​

View attachment 11067

Therefore the ratio of insoluble /soluble of the infamous raw carrot is 7:3 or 2.3 : 1
Finally, I can sleep peacefully tonight!

 

[pauljacob]

Lists of High Fiber Foods, Soluble and Insoluble Fiber Chart
- LINK
edit - LINK 2

Thank you very much GO, very useful.

 

[pauljacob]

You know what this means people?
We must disinfect our hands before using the WC toilet and after, entering and leaving the restrooms without contamination. Toilet paper use is a stupid invention and a fallacy, bacteria get through the thin paper when you wipe. Always use moist toilet-tissue with an disinfectant alcohol or something.

What about after using money? Same.

I can already imaging myself bringing my moist tissues with me in my man-bag every time I go out...

I think the more sanitary we attempt to be, the more vulnerable we become even to the weakest of bacteria.